Random Thought: Was Janeway Killed Because She was So Polarizing?

[Saito S]

Sci, Steve Roby, and Kestrel have summed up my thoughts on all this very well, but there are a couple things I wanted to bring up:

To take this back on topic again, the "Janeway situation" is somewhat different but I do think that those in charge of that action must have been aware of the fact that wasting Janeway would make many fans sad and angry.

As for telling good stories, "Fury" was definitely not a good story and when it comes to the books, masterpieces like "The Black Shore", "Marooned", "Her Klingon Soul" and many others shows that there is possible to tell good stories without killing off beloved main characters.

"Wasting Janeway" is subjective. She died, obviously, but whether or not that was a "waste" of her character is a matter of individual opinion. It goes without saying that you didn't like it, but there are others (myself included) who have stated that her death was an interesting plot development, and that instead of driving us away from TrekLit, it has helped to generate interest in Voyager novels where there was little or no such interest before.

As for the bolded part, of course it's possible. I dunno if that was - even in part - supposed to be a response to what I said about killing characters in stories I write, but I certainly didn't mean to imply that it's the only or best way to create drama. It's one of many ways, and absolutely shouldn't be done lightly or without careful consideration, but it shouldn't be avoided at all costs, either. Even if there are some fans who will hate it (and I have to be honest, Lynx... you are the first person I have "met" who is a fan of either sci-fi in general or Trek in particular who seems to have such a dislike of main character death, conceptually).

Actually... a question for you, on that note: I mentioned in my last post that I recently wrote a death scene for one of my characters in my big sci-fi epic. Let's say that someday, I publish this story (fingers crossed!! ), and you pick it up and really like it. You faithfully pick up subsequent books, eagerly following the story, and you develop a favorite character. That character is the one who's death I just wrote out. So you get to that part, and BAM, she dies.

Would your reaction be the same as it has been here? Do you stop reading my story, refusing to buy any further books that come out? Is this just a thing for you in general, "main character death = goodbye story", or was this case special?

Also, does the fact that the entire story is mine, all the characters were created by me, and all the decisions about things like who dies were all me... all of this was created and decided upon by a single person, unlike (obviously) the situation with Janeway, a character created years ago for a TV show, with the decision to kill her being made by a team of editors who had nothing to do with originally creating the character, and the writing of her actual death in turn falling to one of their authors... Does that make any difference? Would that make the character death in my story easier or harder to deal with?

I'm honestly curious here...

 

[Therin of Andor]

n it comes to the episode "Fury", I do have a feeling that they knew exactly what they were doing.

One of my favourite creepy scenes, in all of VOY, is the day Kes returned, full of "Fury", and strode through the ship's corridors, blowing out the walls with the power of her mind.

That was an amazing scene!

I know Lynx hates us to remind him, but Jennifer Lien was a co-story writer on the episode. Whether she was trying to rectify problems she had with the initial script or not, her ideas are on the screen, and she was said to be delighted to have been able to sink her teeth into the new character of Bad Kes.

 

[Lynx]

Sci, Steve Roby, and Kestrel have summed up my thoughts on all this very well, but there are a couple things I wanted to bring up:

To take this back on topic again, the "Janeway situation" is somewhat different but I do think that those in charge of that action must have been aware of the fact that wasting Janeway would make many fans sad and angry.

As for telling good stories, "Fury" was definitely not a good story and when it comes to the books, masterpieces like "The Black Shore", "Marooned", "Her Klingon Soul" and many others shows that there is possible to tell good stories without killing off beloved main characters.

"Wasting Janeway" is subjective. She died, obviously, but whether or not that was a "waste" of her character is a matter of individual opinion. It goes without saying that you didn't like it, but there are others (myself included) who have stated that her death was an interesting plot development, and that instead of driving us away from TrekLit, it has helped to generate interest in Voyager novels where there was little or no such interest before.

As for the bolded part, of course it's possible. I dunno if that was - even in part - supposed to be a response to what I said about killing characters in stories I write, but I certainly didn't mean to imply that it's the only or best way to create drama. It's one of many ways, and absolutely shouldn't be done lightly or without careful consideration, but it shouldn't be avoided at all costs, either. Even if there are some fans who will hate it (and I have to be honest, Lynx... you are the first person I have "met" who is a fan of either sci-fi in general or Trek in particular who seems to have such a dislike of main character death, conceptually).

Actually... a question for you, on that note: I mentioned in my last post that I recently wrote a death scene for one of my characters in my big sci-fi epic. Let's say that someday, I publish this story (fingers crossed!! ), and you pick it up and really like it. You faithfully pick up subsequent books, eagerly following the story, and you develop a favorite character. That character is the one who's death I just wrote out. So you get to that part, and BAM, she dies.

Would your reaction be the same as it has been here? Do you stop reading my story, refusing to buy any further books that come out? Is this just a thing for you in general, "main character death = goodbye story", or was this case special?

Also, does the fact that the entire story is mine, all the characters were created by me, and all the decisions about things like who dies were all me... all of this was created and decided upon by a single person, unlike (obviously) the situation with Janeway, a character created years ago for a TV show, with the decision to kill her being made by a team of editors who had nothing to do with originally creating the character, and the writing of her actual death in turn falling to one of their authors... Does that make any difference? Would that make the character death in my story easier or harder to deal with?

I'm honestly curious here...

Some good questions here.

As for your story and the question if I should stop reading your story, refusing to buy any further books that come out, it depends. If I thought that the book was so-so and never got any affection to the characters, then I might read it, put it aside and later on I might think, "oh, there's a book by that "Soul Of Sito" who wrote that story I read some time ago. That story was so-so but I will give this one a try (or I simply just decide not to buy it, who knows).

But if there is a characters I've got a certain affection for and if the book is a part of a series of books about certain characters and suddenly one I really like is killed off, then I might react in the same way as in the "Kes case" and "Janeway case".

It wasn't long ago I stopped watching a series which I've been watching for years. The reason was that they dumped a good character (no killing off) and replaced the character with a lame clone and there were no reasons stated for the changes anywhere (no "the actress wanted to quit" or so) so I decied that enough was enough.

Of course the fact that "the Janeway case" is about a character who were the main character for a series which lasted for seven seasons plus about six years or so of "Relaunch" books and then the character is suddenly killed off have affected the situation too.

And I guess that I simply don't like when favorite characters are killed off.

And to avoid comments like "oh, he only cares when his favorites are killed off" I would also like to state that I wasn't a fan of "Enterprise". I found the characxters rather weak and actually stopped watching the series after 5 episodes. But I was annoyed when I read that Trip had been killed off, not only because I found him the most likeable character of that bunch but also because I thought it was unnecessary to kill him off. I saw no reason for doing that.

 

[Lynx]

n it comes to the episode "Fury", I do have a feeling that they knew exactly what they were doing.

One of my favourite creepy scenes, in all of VOY, is the day Kes returned, full of "Fury", and strode through the ship's corridors, blowing out the walls with the power of her mind.

That was an amazing scene!

I know Lynx hates us to remind him, but Jennifer Lien was a co-story writer on the episode. Whether she was trying to rectify problems she had with the initial script or not, her ideas are on the screen, and she was said to be delighted to have been able to sink her teeth into the new character of Bad Kes.

I gess that you don't like the character, otherwise you wouldn't find any pleasure in seeing a great character be transformed into a disgusting parody of herself.

As for the "co-story" writing thing, Jennifer Lien's only input in that horrible story was that she persuaded those in charge not to kill off Kes at the end of the story (which the benevolent and friendly people had planned to do as a final, lovely "gift" to the Kes fans).

And yes, Jennifer Lien was delighted to play the good Kes (watch the season 3 inteviews on the DVD:s), she was delighted to play the bad Kes, she was delighted to be in the cast, she was delighted to be fired and she was delighted to be invited for that crappy episode as well.

Kestrel wrote:

That's ludicrous. Did you have a tinfoil hat on while writing that?

That was a rude comment. I thought we should avoid personal insults.

Steve Roby wrote:

There's a very wise saying: Never attribute to malice that which you can attribute to stupidity. Considering their track record on Voyager and Enterprise, I'm willing to believe that every time Berman and Braga got something horribly wrong they actually thought they were doing something good that the fans would appreciate. Because they kept on doing it.

Well, if they really imagined that the Kes fans should like "Fury", then they must be really stupid.

And I don't think they were that stupid.

 

[captcalhoun]

"Wasting Janeway" is subjective. She died, obviously, but whether or not that was a "waste" of her character is a matter of individual opinion.

i think he meant 'wasted' as in killed. like 'waste that guy!'

 

[Lynx]

"Wasting Janeway" is subjective. She died, obviously, but whether or not that was a "waste" of her character is a matter of individual opinion.

i think he meant 'wasted' as in killed. like 'waste that guy!'

Correct.

But it was a waste of the character as well.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I gess that you don't like the character, otherwise you wouldn't find any pleasure in seeing a great character be transformed into a disgusting parody of herself.

Then you guess wrongly.

I'd almost describe some of the Mirror Universe characters as disgusting parodies of the originals, too. Such characters can be fun, and the actors love the chance to play the opposite to characters they've played before. Actors enjoy playing with characters, stretching their emotions and skills, and surprising their audiences.

she was delighted to be fired

Nope. She's on record as not being happy about it. But she is a shy woman and didn't say very much for herself about her dismissal. But there are interviews out there where she talks about having a lot of fun playing Bad Kes! She wasn't under longterm contract any more, and she didn't have to follow a Paramount line. So you reckon she was lying to protect writers? And from who?

 

[BillJ]

Or to quote a Czech demonstrant who staged an illegal protest in Soviet-occupied Czechoslovakia against the Russian invasion one year earlier: "If we don't protest today, the Russians will take it as evidence that we all are happy and content with the current regime".

Nearly spit out my soda with this one!

Comparing what you see as poor treatment of fictional characters with a real world invasion and occupation.

Dispensing with Janeway was crucial for Voyager to go in a new direction. One of my biggest gripes with Star Trek is the fact that you have essentially the same characters hanging around with each other for thirty plus years. I applaud the writers and editors for taking a gamble. More often than not the gamble is far more satisfying than the status quo (TNG Re-launch excluded).

Now more than ever, Voyager feels like a ship that has some history.

 

[Kataaran]

I have a question for those that like the new direction Voyager is heading: Did you count Voyager as your favourite Trek series? I'm wondering if that makes a difference. I figure with its darker overtones the new stuff is more likely to appeal to Niners

Personally Voyager is my favourite iteration, maybe that's why I'm disappointed with the relaunch.

 

[BillJ]

I have a question for those that like the new direction Voyager is heading: Did you count Voyager as your favourite Trek series? I'm wondering if that makes a difference. I figure with its darker overtones the new stuff is more likely to appeal to Niners

Personally Voyager is my favourite iteration, maybe that's why I'm disappointed with the relaunch.

No. Voyager wasn't my favorite series by a mile. I rank it just above Deep Space Nine. It was a series that definitely needed some new dynamics and Kirsten Beyer delivered. Full Circle/Unworthy were some of the best Trek fiction in a while. You add Eden and Cambridge to Chuckles, Paris and Torres and an interesting evolution for Seven of Nine and it is a definite winner.

 

[kimc]

I have a question for those that like the new direction Voyager is heading: Did you count Voyager as your favourite Trek series? I'm wondering if that makes a difference. I figure with its darker overtones the new stuff is more likely to appeal to Niners

Personally Voyager is my favourite iteration, maybe that's why I'm disappointed with the relaunch.

Voyager and TOS are my top trek series. For darker undertones I don't like to mess around - I go straight to nuBSG.

 

[Lynx]

Or to quote a Czech demonstrant who staged an illegal protest in Soviet-occupied Czechoslovakia against the Russian invasion one year earlier: "If we don't protest today, the Russians will take it as evidence that we all are happy and content with the current regime".

Nearly spit out my soda with this one!

Comparing what you see as poor treatment of fictional characters with a real world invasion and occupation.

Dispensing with Janeway was crucial for Voyager to go in a new direction. One of my biggest gripes with Star Trek is the fact that you have essentially the same characters hanging around with each other for thirty plus years. I applaud the writers and editors for taking a gamble. More often than not the gamble is far more satisfying than the status quo (TNG Re-launch excluded).

Now more than ever, Voyager feels like a ship that has some history.

Sorry for the soda but my intention with that somewhat exaggerated quote was to state that the only way to make a change is to protest when you think that somethingt is wrong. If you don't, those in charge will say "everyone is happy because there are no protests".

I see no reason to bring in Voyager in a new direction. Why do I bother to read a Voyager book? Because I want to read about the characters from the series, the characters who I happen to like. I'm not the slightest interested in reading about a ship called Voyager with a totally different crew or a crew with only one or two remaining original members. That's not Voyager for me. The ship may be named Voyager but it's no longer the Star Trek Voyager I once liked, only a bogus Voyager with no resemblance to what I once liked.

For those who want new main characters, there are the "New Frontier" books or similar series.

 

[Thrawn]

^ You keep doing this. It's not "one or two remaining original members". It's everyone that made it home with 2 exceptions, which is a greater percentage of the TV-show main characters than either TNG or DS9 relaunches started with.

Again, I totally respect your opinion and your right not to read the books, but quit making shit up. Describe what is actually in the books, and your actual objections. Exaggerating and lying just makes you look crazy and vengeful, which are ways I'm sure you wouldn't characterize yourself.

And the authors/editors don't pay attention to "protests", they pay attention to sales, which has no real analogue in a democratic system. You're using a flawed analogy. Standing up and yelling is going to make dick-all difference if the books sell well. Which - again - does not mean that they "only care about profit", it means that the best way that you have, as a publisher, to see how your fans are reacting to the work is by counting how many of them enjoy it enough to spend money on it.

Whatever you see on the internet, as a publisher, is a tiny portion of your overall audience. It's an incomplete metric, sure, but the only way to measure the preferences of your entire audience is to see how big it is, and if it's growing or shrinking.

 

[Captain59]

Janeway was killed off? Good to know...no spoiler there.

 

[Thrawn]

It happened in a book published in late 2007, and this is like the 19th thread about it. At this point, I think the statute of limitations has passed.

 

[Dayton Ward]

Sorry for the soda but my intention with that somewhat exaggerated quote was to state that the only way to make a change is to protest when you think that somethingt is wrong. If you don't, those in charge will say "everyone is happy because there are no protests".

You seem to have an ongoing problem with exaggeration and hyperbole. For example:

I see no reason to bring in Voyager in a new direction. Why do I bother to read a Voyager book? Because I want to read about the characters from the series, the characters who I happen to like. I'm not the slightest interested in reading about a ship called Voyager with a totally different crew or a crew with only one or two remaining original members.

I've lost count of the number of times you've said this or something like it, both here and on other boards, and in pretty much every instance it's been refuted, often by the author of the books herself. I'm pretty sure Kirsten even laid out the crew roster more than once, in an attempt to alleviate this very fear of yours, and you've even acknowledged her efforts to address your concerns. So, why does this point and others of a similar vein still keep coming up? One might get the impression that you really aren't interested in anything resembling an open, honest, and civil dialogue on this topic.

That's not Voyager for me. The ship may be named Voyager but it's no longer the Star Trek Voyager I once liked, only a bogus Voyager with no resemblance to what I once liked.

For those who want new main characters, there are the "New Frontier" books or similar series.

Of course, the VGR characters, as with the characters from any film or television show you saw for the first time, were once new to you, and despite all apparent evidence that don't seem to do "new," you gave them a chance and they became favorites. Since, as you've repeatedly stated, you've not read the new books nor have any intention of doing so, you have no idea how you'll react to any new characters until you actually "meet" them. Kirsten might surprise you, if you gave her half a chance.

Or not. That's your call, but the least you can do is be honest about it, instead of inventing (and re-inventing) stuff to be "mad" about.

 

[rahullak]

Yes, there's no democratic analogue when someone owns something. Star Trek is owned by CBS which licenses it out to Pocket Books. They can do whatever the hell they want with it. Obviously, they're going to go with what they think will drive sales and are good creative decisions. The only thing that the readers own is the physical book or the ebook that they might buy. They can do whatever the hell the want with that (slash, burn, idolize, parade, sell, virus-zap etc.).

Just as no one who doesn't own the book should be telling the reader what s/he should do with the book, so also no one who isn't a stakeholder in the process of creating a story for Pocket Books should be telling CBS or Pocket Books how or what to put in the story.

 

[Dayton Ward]

^ For what it's worth, you're welcome to buy and burn as many copies of my books as you can find.

 

[Paris]

Does anyone here know how to fix my broken record player? Whenever I put in my "Janeway/Voyager" album it always seems to play the same song over and over and over and over and over....

 

[Dayton Ward]

^ Is that The Long Way Home by the original band, or Back On the Road Again from the reunion tour?