In your opinion.
That is their job.
You know what the fans would say? How dare Pocket Books undo Janeway's promotion!
You are under the impression that admirals are clerks?
Random Thought: Was Janeway Killed Because She was So Polarizing?
- Thread starter Frontier
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In your opinion.
Well they do pretty much command a desk. That would make them more of a clerk in my book.
I do wonder why it couldn't have been...
Janeway in charge of the fleet with Chakotay as Captain.
I've always thought that Starfleet promoted Janeway not as a commendation but as a punishment, that she was too valuable as a public-relations tool to let her leave Starfleet but that she was too compromised by some of her DQ decisions to ever allow her in the center seat of a starship again.
So, no, I don't think it was a mistake for Starfleet to have promoted Janeway.
weell, you might think that, but i find many of your attacks on the authors and editors in this and other threads to be offensive and i believe them to be personal attacks on other posters or former posters to this forum.
i never ridiculed your opinions. i ridiculed your inability to just say 'i don't like these books, i won't read them' AND THEN LEAVE WELL ENOUGH ALONE.
like Thrawn, I don't like the post New Jedi Order novels direction. Which is why a)I've never bought them and b)operate on a variation of the Observer Effect: If I don't read them, they don't exist.
I agree. And we've had a poster here, a poster Lynx quoted, who states she's felt personally insulted by some of these accusations.
Unless you're using a Quaker understanding of the term "clerk" that's pretty insulting to Admirals though.
And as to your spoiler, she could've been, but that's not the direction the storytellers chose to go.
Maybe bureaucrat would be more fitting? Admirals generally get to tell others what to do more than actually do anything themselves.
And as to your spoiler, she could've been, but that's not the direction the storytellers chose to go.
Yeah, just sayin
Long-time lurker stepping into the fray here, but I felt inspired to add another voice to the discussion. As a big Voyager and Janeway fan, I must admit that this whole situation has me a little torn. Let me explain.
First, I'd like to say to Kirsten that I *love* Full Circle and Unworthy. More on that in a bit. But first I'd like to address your post. I appreciate your honesty and directness and thank you for sharing your insight into the creative process. But I want to express why, before I read your books, I was very uncertain about continuing to purchase any more Voyager books, and it does have largely to do with how Janeway was portrayed in several novels over the past few years.
Let me start by saying I fully believe you when you say that no creative decision was made with any malicious intent. That notion, I personally believe, is ridiculous. At the same time, however, I feel there were a series of decisions made in rapid succession in regards to the handling of Janeway that indicated a kind of 'not seeing the forest for the trees' mentality. When we look back to the early days of the post-finale Voyager fiction, we had the Homecoming duology, the Spirit Walk duology and then several cameo appearances in the A Time to... novels that featured Janeway. I particularly liked Janeway's portrayal in the A Time to... novels because she wasn't just the stuffy, faceless admiral we'd seen countless times on Star Trek. She seemed, to me anyway, to be more the 'comrade in arms' in the admiralty, the person who trusted Picard and the Enterprise crew more than the other admirals because she'd been there, and recently, as well.
And then String Theory happened, or more specifically, Book 3, in which an intricate explanation was offered explaining Janeway's 'erratic' behavior in the latter parts of the series. I was disheartened by this because, even given conflicting portrayals of Janeway in the latter part of the TV series, I didn't feel it was something that had to be actively addressed within the framework of the fiction itself. It draws unnecessary attention to it, in my opinion, and only serves to exacerbate the issue by creating an actual 'problem' where none existed before. I didn't feel Janeway needed to be 'fixed.' And then, following String Theory, there were Janeway's appearances in the TNG Relaunch novels, in which she became less and less the admiral we had seen in the A Time to... series and more the pain-in-the-captain's-side admiral we'd seen before in Star Trek. And of course, all this culminated in Before Dishonor, in which she was mocked by Lady Q and turned into the Borg Queen before being killed off, in a novel written by a man who's dislike of Voyager is well known, and in a novel which wasn't even Voyager-bannered to begin with. And further, it took nearly two more years to release a proper follow-up to this in which we get to see the crew's reaction.
Now, I do NOT feel any of these decisions were inherently bad or wrong, and taken individually over a greater expanse of time may have even been unnoticeable. But coming relatively rapid-fire as they did, well, I just can't help but feel that, like I said, Pocket maybe wasn't seeing the forest for the trees and not considering the cumulative effect of all these decisions regarding Janeway. I feel Pocket kind of fumbled a couple times here. But this is just my opinion. So after everything that had happened between String Theory and Before Dishonor, I was very reluctant to pick up Full Circle. But I did.
And boy am I glad. Kirsten, you have gone a long way towards rebuilding my faith in the fiction and the direction of Voyager. I feel that no other author has fully captured the Voyager characters as well as you have. Full Circle was absolutely great. The Janeway funeral scene was one I found touching on numerous levels, and seemed to speak to a number of the varied emotions I had regarding Janeway and her death.
Kirsten, I think you've done a great job and hope to see many more Voyager books from you in the future. I guess this is a very long, long way of saying that I don't know if I'll ever be cool with some of the decisions that were made about Janeway and how they were handled, but that said, I'm still looking forward to the future of Voyager. Bravo, congratulations on the new baby, and here's to many more books.
First, I'd like to say to Kirsten that I *love* Full Circle and Unworthy. More on that in a bit. But first I'd like to address your post. I appreciate your honesty and directness and thank you for sharing your insight into the creative process. But I want to express why, before I read your books, I was very uncertain about continuing to purchase any more Voyager books, and it does have largely to do with how Janeway was portrayed in several novels over the past few years.
Let me start by saying I fully believe you when you say that no creative decision was made with any malicious intent. That notion, I personally believe, is ridiculous. At the same time, however, I feel there were a series of decisions made in rapid succession in regards to the handling of Janeway that indicated a kind of 'not seeing the forest for the trees' mentality. When we look back to the early days of the post-finale Voyager fiction, we had the Homecoming duology, the Spirit Walk duology and then several cameo appearances in the A Time to... novels that featured Janeway. I particularly liked Janeway's portrayal in the A Time to... novels because she wasn't just the stuffy, faceless admiral we'd seen countless times on Star Trek. She seemed, to me anyway, to be more the 'comrade in arms' in the admiralty, the person who trusted Picard and the Enterprise crew more than the other admirals because she'd been there, and recently, as well.
And then String Theory happened, or more specifically, Book 3, in which an intricate explanation was offered explaining Janeway's 'erratic' behavior in the latter parts of the series. I was disheartened by this because, even given conflicting portrayals of Janeway in the latter part of the TV series, I didn't feel it was something that had to be actively addressed within the framework of the fiction itself. It draws unnecessary attention to it, in my opinion, and only serves to exacerbate the issue by creating an actual 'problem' where none existed before. I didn't feel Janeway needed to be 'fixed.' And then, following String Theory, there were Janeway's appearances in the TNG Relaunch novels, in which she became less and less the admiral we had seen in the A Time to... series and more the pain-in-the-captain's-side admiral we'd seen before in Star Trek. And of course, all this culminated in Before Dishonor, in which she was mocked by Lady Q and turned into the Borg Queen before being killed off, in a novel written by a man who's dislike of Voyager is well known, and in a novel which wasn't even Voyager-bannered to begin with. And further, it took nearly two more years to release a proper follow-up to this in which we get to see the crew's reaction.
Now, I do NOT feel any of these decisions were inherently bad or wrong, and taken individually over a greater expanse of time may have even been unnoticeable. But coming relatively rapid-fire as they did, well, I just can't help but feel that, like I said, Pocket maybe wasn't seeing the forest for the trees and not considering the cumulative effect of all these decisions regarding Janeway. I feel Pocket kind of fumbled a couple times here. But this is just my opinion. So after everything that had happened between String Theory and Before Dishonor, I was very reluctant to pick up Full Circle. But I did.
And boy am I glad. Kirsten, you have gone a long way towards rebuilding my faith in the fiction and the direction of Voyager. I feel that no other author has fully captured the Voyager characters as well as you have. Full Circle was absolutely great. The Janeway funeral scene was one I found touching on numerous levels, and seemed to speak to a number of the varied emotions I had regarding Janeway and her death.
I think Asfarah Eden is great, and I'm just sorry that she was so quickly taken out of Voyager's center chair (and I love that you gave Voyager an actual center chair and got rid of the side-by-side pairing), because I thought she showed great potential and I was really intrigued by the idea of someone other than Janeway and Chakotay taking command.
I love the Voyager fleet heading back to the Delta Quadrant. It seems right, and seems to recapture something that was missing in the first two post-finale duologies. I like so many of the new characters: Sharak and Cambridge and Conlon (although I guess she was in the SCE series? I didn't get to read many of those). I love all the different ships and crews and would love to have the whole fleet pictured on the cover of one of the books one day. The one thing I was sorry to see was the killing of Jarem Kaz, who I thought was Golden's best addition to the crew, and while I understand the circumstances of his death, I think it would have been great to put him somewhere in fleet, even if it was no longer on Voyager, so that we could have revisited him from time to time.
Kirsten, I think you've done a great job and hope to see many more Voyager books from you in the future. I guess this is a very long, long way of saying that I don't know if I'll ever be cool with some of the decisions that were made about Janeway and how they were handled, but that said, I'm still looking forward to the future of Voyager. Bravo, congratulations on the new baby, and here's to many more books.
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hey, watch the Unworthy spoilers, some folks haven't read it yet. (only on chapter 3, meself!)
There was no personal insult intended. Just because I believe the editorial staff made a stupid call does not mean I think they're stupid. They may or may not be - since I've never met them I really can't say. However, smart people make stupid calls all the time. As for your two books I believe you made the best out of the pile that was handed to you. It would be great if there were more books coming out by you that featured a living Janeway. If there were I would buy them.
As much as I would love to continue the discussion it seems that in doing so feelings will continue to be hurt. Perhaps at a later date...
Honestly, I try to avoid to attack other posters personally but sometimes I have to defend myself when people attack me. There have been some occasions when I have criticized the annihilation of Janeway and some posters have attacked me and more and less pointed me out as a moron because of that. Is it insanity to be upset when a favorite character is wiped out from future Voyager stories (or more correctly, when a Voayger character is destroyed again)? I happen to like those characters.
When it comes to those in charge of the TV series and those in charge of PocketBooks, if there is their job only to care about profit and ratings, then I can't be accused for being rude when I simply point out the facts.
Demoting Janeway and/or finding a way to keep her in command of the ship must be much better than to kill her off, not to mention the possibilities for good stories about Our Captain.
Describing an Admiral as a "desk clerk" in this case is a bit rude and down-putting, I know that and it's not my intention to insult those who are admirals, I guess they are doing a good job. I'm just a bit dissapointed that Janeway was placed behind a desk instead of being out there and explore. I mean, that was Janeway's life, that was what she wanted to do.
But as I see it, that can be changed. If I had been the author responsible for the books, I would have had Janeway persuading her superiors to change that and put her in command of Voyager again. I can clearly see Janeway facing Admiral Paris or whoever, saying "Sorry, but I don't want to be put behind a desk. My place is out there, in command of a starship, exploring the unknown!"
Honestly, I deserve a medal. It took me 10 minutes to get rid of the damage made to Kes in "The Gift", it took me 2 minutes to clear out the damage made to Kes in "Fury" and now I've removed an obstacle to Janeway's place on Voyager as well in only a couple of seconds.
Go read the part of her post, again, where she talks about how she re-watches the entire series every time she writes a new book, and tell me that she only cares about money.
Then go read the part of her post, again, where she talks about how your (and others') posts have offended her, and tell me that you're not being offensive.
I just don't understand how you can continue to do this. Your posts are offensive, whether or not you intend them to be. And you're either unwilling or unable to realize that. If the former, then you're being a dick, which I don't think you'd be doing on purpose. So that leaves the latter - you just don't realize how and why you're being offensive to people.
And if that's the case, then either 1) express some interest in learning how to stop, or 2) go away. Because if I were an author, posts like yours would come very close to driving me out of here, and that means you're quite possibly ruining this wonderful thing for the rest of us. So please, cut it out.
Then go read the part of her post, again, where she talks about how your (and others') posts have offended her, and tell me that you're not being offensive.
I just don't understand how you can continue to do this. Your posts are offensive, whether or not you intend them to be. And you're either unwilling or unable to realize that. If the former, then you're being a dick, which I don't think you'd be doing on purpose. So that leaves the latter - you just don't realize how and why you're being offensive to people.
And if that's the case, then either 1) express some interest in learning how to stop, or 2) go away. Because if I were an author, posts like yours would come very close to driving me out of here, and that means you're quite possibly ruining this wonderful thing for the rest of us. So please, cut it out.
^^
I had a dream.
I was in the local bookstore when I discovered a new Star Trek Voyager book. It was called "The Return" and I thought "Oh, I've never seen or heard about that one before!"
For some strange reason, I decided to buy it, depite the fact that I promised never to buy a new Voyager relaunch book again but some strange force did seem to persuade me to buy it.
Back home in my apartment I started to read it. And this was amazing. It was about Voyager being back in the Delta Quadrant again and not only that. Janeway was in command and all the main characters from the series were there too, even Kes and Neelix.
"This is amazing!" I thought. "They have finally come up with a great Voyager book. This is exactly what I wanted to read about. Now I will continue to buy these books, I can't wait for the next one."
At that moment, I heard an annoying sound. "Now what is that?" I thought.
Then I realized that it was my alarm clock, waking me up to another morning and everything about the new Voyager book was just.........a dream.
Is it so hard to understand that I'm dissapointed with the current direction of the books? After all I did have high expectations when the relaunch started.
And is it so hard to understand that I'm sad and upset by seeing another destruction of one of my favorites. First kes, then janeway. Who's next?
I had a dream.
I was in the local bookstore when I discovered a new Star Trek Voyager book. It was called "The Return" and I thought "Oh, I've never seen or heard about that one before!"
For some strange reason, I decided to buy it, depite the fact that I promised never to buy a new Voyager relaunch book again but some strange force did seem to persuade me to buy it.
Back home in my apartment I started to read it. And this was amazing. It was about Voyager being back in the Delta Quadrant again and not only that. Janeway was in command and all the main characters from the series were there too, even Kes and Neelix.
"This is amazing!" I thought. "They have finally come up with a great Voyager book. This is exactly what I wanted to read about. Now I will continue to buy these books, I can't wait for the next one."
At that moment, I heard an annoying sound. "Now what is that?" I thought.
Then I realized that it was my alarm clock, waking me up to another morning and everything about the new Voyager book was just.........a dream.
Is it so hard to understand that I'm dissapointed with the current direction of the books? After all I did have high expectations when the relaunch started.
And is it so hard to understand that I'm sad and upset by seeing another destruction of one of my favorites. First kes, then janeway. Who's next?
As I wrote above, promotion could well have been a punishment for Janeway. She should have been court-martialed over some of her decisions -- the Tuvix incident and the torture of the Equinox crewmembers come quickly to mind -- but she was also a public relations goldmine. Starfleet couldn't exactly cashier her out of the service, but they also couldn't allow her to get off without some consequences. A promotion served both purposes -- Janeway would never command a starship again, but she would still have her career.
Think of it this way. I'm a high school teacher, and I'm in a district that uses so-called "alternative compensation", meaning that if my students learn more, I make more money.
So yes, technically, it is my job to care about profit & test scores. But that's not why I'm a teacher. I'm a teacher because I want to make a difference in the lives of young people, and share the joy I experience with my subject. My job is to make the test scores higher, and make more money. Why I do my job is for very deep, personal reasons.
And if someone told me "It also confirms my theory that the only thing those in charge of LA schools cares about is money. They don't care about students, their growth, their feelings and the development of their character, it's all about money and their own wallets"...
I'd be pretty livid.
Just so, caring about profit is their job. But that's not why they do it. They do it because they love and care for this universe. If they didn't, they wouldn't have gotten the job in the first place. No one says "I want to become a Trek editor so I can ruin Trek"!
So yes, technically, it is my job to care about profit & test scores. But that's not why I'm a teacher. I'm a teacher because I want to make a difference in the lives of young people, and share the joy I experience with my subject. My job is to make the test scores higher, and make more money. Why I do my job is for very deep, personal reasons.
And if someone told me "It also confirms my theory that the only thing those in charge of LA schools cares about is money. They don't care about students, their growth, their feelings and the development of their character, it's all about money and their own wallets"...
I'd be pretty livid.
Just so, caring about profit is their job. But that's not why they do it. They do it because they love and care for this universe. If they didn't, they wouldn't have gotten the job in the first place. No one says "I want to become a Trek editor so I can ruin Trek"!
No, it's not hard to understand, and it's not objectionable at all. Let me break it down for you.
Saying "I'm upset, and I'm going to stop buying the books." Ok. Totally fine. One of my favorite posters, Trent Roman, had a very similar opinion.
Saying "I'm upset, and I'm going to stop buying the books" repeatedly, ad nauseum. Still fine, but you have to realize you'll annoy some people. But I don't even have a problem with that.
Saying "The authors don't care about me or anyone like me, because I'm upset, and they need to fix that, because it's The Right Thing To Do. Oh, and since they aren't, they only care about money, and not the fans or the characters." This is the problem. And you really like to say this kind of thing a lot.
All it takes is 7th-grade reading comprehension to see they have a clear love of the fans and the characters. When you say they don't, it's insulting.
^^
But by killing off Janeway, they have ruined the reading for many ardent fans.
As for love for the characters, I don't write my stories for money or to get paid for it anyway so no one can accuse me for that. But when it comes to characters, there was a time when I really disliked Seven Of Nine. Still I couldn't even dream about killing off the character in any of my stories. Why? because I simply couldn't! After all, she is a Voyager main character, there are people out there who happen to like the character and what would they think if I waste her.
Then imagine how it would be for me to kill off the characters I really like.
Not to mention that such acts would limit the possibilities of coming up with good stories.
But by killing off Janeway, they have ruined the reading for many ardent fans.
As for love for the characters, I don't write my stories for money or to get paid for it anyway so no one can accuse me for that. But when it comes to characters, there was a time when I really disliked Seven Of Nine. Still I couldn't even dream about killing off the character in any of my stories. Why? because I simply couldn't! After all, she is a Voyager main character, there are people out there who happen to like the character and what would they think if I waste her.
Then imagine how it would be for me to kill off the characters I really like.
Not to mention that such acts would limit the possibilities of coming up with good stories.
So, since every Star Trek main character has its own group of avid fans, you're asking that all of us be inflicted with Star Trek novels in which no character ever undergoes major change. No marriage, no divorce, no offspring, no serious illness, no change of job, no death. All of these changes will alter the way fans think of their character.
So when they come on here and say they do love the characters, you think they're lying?
Here's a true statement, directly from me. "I love Janeway, and I love the books that take place after her death."
This is my honest opinion. Do you think I'm lying to you?
Here's a true statement, directly from me. "I love Janeway, and I love the books that take place after her death."
This is my honest opinion. Do you think I'm lying to you?
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