Please provide your analysis of past book sales and future projections to support this claim.
Random Thought: Was Janeway Killed Because She was So Polarizing?
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Janeway being disliked by some would likely have been a point in favour of her sticking around, really. She'd been promoted to Admiral, and generally in Trek the Admirals are at least a little antagonistic, so the Captains we know can fight them and get proven right in the end.
I don't have any of that. But if you kill off Riker, does Titan survive?
If you kill off Picard and LaForge, does TNG stay successful?
Everyone that I know that read the books, read them for the characters, then the stories. There is my support for the claim.
It is a non-issue anyway since none of those characters are getting the axe anytime soon. I don't have facts to back that up, just a gut feeling.
Actually if Janeway had been seen as a center of controversy and intense feelings among those who follow Trek lit, I imagine she would have been more likely to stick around.
As it is, a creative choice was made that amounted to deciding that Janeway's death would lead to more interesting stories for Voyager and its crew than Janeway's continued existence. If the death itself was seen as controversial and sparked debate and interest, then so much the better.
Having a character die is one way you can rock the boat within an established pop culture property like Trek and attempt to renew interest and/or create a new dynamic.
It could certainly happen to a character like Picard at some future time as well, at least theoretically.
As it is, a creative choice was made that amounted to deciding that Janeway's death would lead to more interesting stories for Voyager and its crew than Janeway's continued existence. If the death itself was seen as controversial and sparked debate and interest, then so much the better.
Having a character die is one way you can rock the boat within an established pop culture property like Trek and attempt to renew interest and/or create a new dynamic.
It could certainly happen to a character like Picard at some future time as well, at least theoretically.
It certainly could. Titan isn't a star vehicle, it's an ensemble series. Its appeal isn't just about one character.
We wouldn't know unless it was tried. Killing Janeway doesn't seem to have hurt Voyager so far. Admittedly TNG may be a different case, though, because it's lost so many of its regulars already. So it's kind of unfair to use it as an example.
But do they read them for one specific character, or for an interesting cast of characters in general? A series can survive losing main characters if the replacement characters are engaging enough.
It is a non-issue anyway since none of those characters are getting the axe anytime soon. I don't have facts to back that up, just a gut feeling.
At this point, with nobody even knowing who's going to be editing Trek books and plotting their course past 2010, it's impossible to assume anything about what will or won't happen in the book line. What can be said, though, is that there's nothing prohibiting the novels from killing off lead characters or making other fundamental changes in their lives. The events of recent years should have made that abundantly clear.
Christopher, everything you said is absolutely true. However, I am just speculating for conversation and asserting my opinion about the future if Picard or another major character was to get killed off.
Janeway was never that popular or more to the point, Voyager was not that popular/cultish compared to TNG and the VOY fan base may be able to handle that. I know I watched the show and welcomed her demise. Maybe it was because it seemed like her character/SF never gave Picard the respect in the books he has earned in the books.
Come to think of it, Picard and Wesley Crusher have a lot in common these days, just on a different magnitude of saving stuff.
I said it was a gut feeling and I am going to stick to that based on whatever happens at Pocket Books. I don't want to see the Franchise Lit base take any more hits than the next crazed fan on here. I was hopeful the Kindle would go a long ways to saving money (not publishing the books physically) but I don't understand that industry/demographic well enough to know.
Janeway was never that popular or more to the point, Voyager was not that popular/cultish compared to TNG and the VOY fan base may be able to handle that. I know I watched the show and welcomed her demise. Maybe it was because it seemed like her character/SF never gave Picard the respect in the books he has earned in the books.
Come to think of it, Picard and Wesley Crusher have a lot in common these days, just on a different magnitude of saving stuff.
I said it was a gut feeling and I am going to stick to that based on whatever happens at Pocket Books. I don't want to see the Franchise Lit base take any more hits than the next crazed fan on here. I was hopeful the Kindle would go a long ways to saving money (not publishing the books physically) but I don't understand that industry/demographic well enough to know.
There are many other types of fans reading the novels. Some love tech stuff, some want battle stories, some want first contact, some want scientific exploration, some want political intrigue, others want a whodunnit. Then you have short stories, self-contained novels, multi-part sagas, crossovers, and so on.
Sure, many want character relationships but, even then, people follow particular characters, and groups of characters. You can't lump all ST novel readers into one group and expect them to share your expectations.
QFT
Take Titan, for instance. I like those particular novels for the character development and the socialization among all the crew members. My good friend (approx. the same age, education, economic status, etc) reads them because she likes the science.
Stories with huge space battles and detailed science don't hold my interest, but I can appreciate the book for being well written. She's exactly the opposite; in her opinion, stories predominantly about characterization are slow, but she also can recognize when a book is written well.
It certainly makes for some good discussions!
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I don't see how you can say that so categorically without asking everybody what they feel the appeal of a series is for them.
For me, Titan is absolutely about the appeal of one character - William T. Riker. I enjoy the other characters, sure, and you need other characters for better stories, but they aren't what keep my attention. If Riker leaves Titan, I leave Titan. Simple as.
I'm not saying everybody will do that, but there are those of us that feel that way.
As someone who's written two Titan novels, I naturally pay attention to the comments people make about the series. And I've heard people express appreciation for many of the series' characters, not just one. I've heard approval for novels where Riker is not the dominant or central character such as Sword of Damocles and my own Over a Torrent Sea, and I don't recall ever hearing any complaints that those books suffered from Riker's diminished role.
And I know from my firsthand participation in the creative process behind the series that it is designed to be an ensemble series rather than a star vehicle. It's not "the adventures of Will Riker," it's the adventures of the diverse crew of the starship Titan. It's stated right in the series bible: "TITAN will be approached as a true ensemble, with no imperative to place constant emphasis on the same handful of characters in each story."
That's your view. You're one person. In all the comments I've read about the TTN series over the past four and a half years, I have never, as far as I can recall, heard anyone else say that Riker was their one and only reason for liking the series. Trek fandom is an immensely diverse group with an immensely wide range of tastes and opinions, as any cursory survey of the discussions and debates on this BBS will suggest.
All you've demonstrated here is that there's one of you who feels that way. I'm sure there are some others who share your view, but you can't assume you represent the vast majority of the audience, especially given that I've never heard anyone else express the same view.
And yet you say "It's appeal isn't about one character" as if speaking on behalf of that entire "immensely diverse group." (and ignoring the little guy / any minorities)
I don't assume I represent the majority. Which is exactly the reason I said "I'm not saying everybody does..." It's also the reason I pepper my comments with 'I' and 'Me,' because I speak for myself, and don't presume to speak for the majority.
Irrelevant. I didn't say the books were bad without Riker, I said if he left, I wouldn't read them anymore. On the contrary, I said "I enjoy the other characters... and you need other characters for better stories." And I stick by that.
I hope none of those comments were made on the internet because, as has already been established in this thread, the opinions of obsessive internet monkeys carry no weight.
Uh oh... Now I'm confused. The world was so much easier to understand earlier in the thread. Sad face.
Okay, just curious about something in this argument...
The "post-finale" books are the current favored direction, and I figure those must be the ones selling the best, since there haven't been any "set during the series" books on the schedule for a while (with the exception of TOS, of course).
But really, we can always have more stories with Data, Janeway, and Kirk. Just publish the occasional book that takes place before they died.
Let's say in the next TNG book Picard, Crusher & Worf all die. Pocket could continue publishing the further adventures of Geordi, Choudhury, T'Ryssa Chen, and Dr. Tropp as either The Next Generation or Star Trek: NCC-1701-E, and at the same time publish the occasional "classic TNG" book set during the series era, or during the movies era, or during the post-Nemesis/pre-dead-Picard/Crusher/Worf era.
I don't feel that any future deaths could kill any of the book lines, because there's always room to write more stories that take place before it happened. Like the song says, "Celluloid heroes never really die."
The "post-finale" books are the current favored direction, and I figure those must be the ones selling the best, since there haven't been any "set during the series" books on the schedule for a while (with the exception of TOS, of course).
But really, we can always have more stories with Data, Janeway, and Kirk. Just publish the occasional book that takes place before they died.
Let's say in the next TNG book Picard, Crusher & Worf all die. Pocket could continue publishing the further adventures of Geordi, Choudhury, T'Ryssa Chen, and Dr. Tropp as either The Next Generation or Star Trek: NCC-1701-E, and at the same time publish the occasional "classic TNG" book set during the series era, or during the movies era, or during the post-Nemesis/pre-dead-Picard/Crusher/Worf era.
I don't feel that any future deaths could kill any of the book lines, because there's always room to write more stories that take place before it happened. Like the song says, "Celluloid heroes never really die."
Absolutely, we can always have more. The writers could probably spent the next 100 years filling in each and every day of the lives of the characters - but the characters would probably never change, because you know where and how they are at a later date.
Personally, I like to see how characters change, and I enjoy not knowing what is coming for them in their lives (which is why post-finale stories are so enjoyable for me). That's the reason why I'm always a little sad when I finish a tv series (like Frasier, or Stargate, or whatever) - because I know I'll never see something new from these characters, and therefore whenever I see them in the future (via re-runs) they won't change.
That's a pretty thin argument, of course, because you can always insert a story that changes the perspective on later stories, and because if the story is good, then it most likely doesn't matter when the story is set.
But you're absolutely right in what I think you're suggesting - being able to set the story at any point in the series makes the argument a little pointless, but then this is an argument about a fictional science fiction series, so isn't it doomed to pointlessness?
Personally, I like to see how characters change, and I enjoy not knowing what is coming for them in their lives (which is why post-finale stories are so enjoyable for me). That's the reason why I'm always a little sad when I finish a tv series (like Frasier, or Stargate, or whatever) - because I know I'll never see something new from these characters, and therefore whenever I see them in the future (via re-runs) they won't change.
That's a pretty thin argument, of course, because you can always insert a story that changes the perspective on later stories, and because if the story is good, then it most likely doesn't matter when the story is set.
But you're absolutely right in what I think you're suggesting - being able to set the story at any point in the series makes the argument a little pointless, but then this is an argument about a fictional science fiction series, so isn't it doomed to pointlessness?
I think you're misunderstanding the point of my comments. I was responding to wizkid's question of whether Titan could survive the death of Riker. That is the specific issue being addressed here: not whether it would lose any readers, but whether it would lose enough of its readers that it would no longer be viable. My answer was that the series' appeal is broadbased and diverse enough that losing one character -- and his associated fans -- most likely wouldn't reduce the audience enough to require the series' cancellation. So the preferences of any single reader are, no offense, irrelevant to the specific question being asked, which was whether the Titan series would continue to be economically viable if it lost Riker. That's a question about the overall audience, not any single member thereof.
Can't disagree with that.
I'm not sure who the OP thought was polarized about Janeway: Other Trek characters or Trek fans?
I don't think it was the former. After all, she made Admiral.
No, I think the OP is really suggesting that the on-screen portrayal of Janeway was polarizing.
I don't think it was the former. After all, she made Admiral.
No, I think the OP is really suggesting that the on-screen portrayal of Janeway was polarizing.
mattburgess - Yep, that's what I was getting at. For the record, I prefer stories that show the characters grow and change as well, and where I don't know for sure they're going to live through what's happening to them. It's part of why I've been loving all the post-finale books. But I do feel you can still tell good stories that are set in those characters "past" as well. There's room for both.
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