Questions and thoughts about Supernatural *spoilers thru Season 5*

[AliciaD496]

Sooo....I wanted some clarification what could be considered some major plot points in Supernatural.

We know Azazel had 'plans' for Sam and those like him, right? Those plans were likely being the vessel for Lucifer (for the winner of his competition) and leading the lower level demons (if he really, really liked any of the others enough to keep them alive).

But...we also know being an angel's vessel is sort of a genetic/bloodline thing, right? Nick wasn't in the true bloodline to be Lucifer's host so he ended up being burnt out pretty quickly.

Does this mean that Azazel chose all the 'psychic' kids to infect based on their bloodlines being possible vessels? Was Sam just his 'favorite' because he had the bloodline to be Michael's vessel? How did he know for sure Mary would even stay with John Winchester at the point he made the deal let alone have a child that he could mark? She wasn't the one with the Michael bloodline so if she had ended up with someone else the child wouldn't have been as 'special'. It seems kind of...iffy and undemon like to leave a plan that open ended and with the possibility of failing. Perhaps that's why he infected so many and why he was working on a new generation already. Maybe this will be explained in the next season a bit...maybe the Campbell family had some angelic bloodline as well, I dunno.

It still begs a few more questions for me, I guess. Is Lucifer's vessel bloodline tied to Michael's? Is that why "it had to be Sam"? If that's the case wouldn't Dean or even Adam have also been a substitute for Sam just like Sam could have also been Micheal's? Is being Lucifer's vessel tied to the whole demon blood thing? Why are the rules for being a vessel for Lucifer different than the other angels?

It makes me think maybe they didn't plan as well as they could have when transitioning into this whole angel plot line from the original 'psychic kids' story.

Another point that bugs me...what would have been the point to Azazel raising Lucifer? Wouldn't that cause him to lose some of the influence on Earth that he had? Would he really have settled to be the right hand man? I suppose it's moot since he was gone before it happened, but it's interesting to think about. Maybe like Ruby he was expecting some kind reward if he had seen it through to the end?

Lastly...Azazel talks to Sam about how he had the demon that was possessing Brady kill Jessica to get him back into hunting (although he originally claimed it was himself, it was retconned later to be Brady). How it was important that Sam was 'sharp'. Was that just sharp for the purposes of the competition? Wouldn't Azazel have wanted that for ALL his intended? Why didn't he make sure all the other children were also raised as hunters? Wasn't Jake with his military training just in the last few years just as well prepared as Sam (without the benefit of knowing how to fight off demons)? It seems kind of silly to WANT your favorite trained in ways to hunt and kill your own kind. It doesn't really make sense to me...you'd think he'd want Sam weak and pliable, easily hooked on the demon blood fast in order to get to being Lucifer's vessel quickly. Being trained as a hunter seems counter intuitive to Azazel's plans, because the person knows just how bad demons can be an why it's bad to work with them no matter the situation. Someone not trained in the supernatural (like Jake) would be more likely to agree (as he did) to help than someone who was. It was only...luck I suppose that Dean went against the usual hunter way of leaving the dead as dead and made his deal to revive Sam. I suppose if they hadn't been raised they way they were they wouldn't have been so close and Dean wouldn't have made his deal or even aware of the possibility. It seems too much was left to chance with Azazel's plans (he didn't even have a back up to take the lead if he died!).

I dunno...I'm looking back on the series and seeing more holes in the plot than I ever did before. Am I missing a piece of puzzle here? Am I thinking into things too much?

I just hope...in all seriousness that the writers work on maybe a return of the old Sam a bit in this next season. To me at least it seems like there's a Sam 1.0 from season 1 and 2 and then Sam 2.0 in the later seasons and it almost seems like they're unrelated, they're so totally...different from each other. While I suppose it's not the worst fate to be a life long hunter...it seems kind of sad in a way. I don't get why the writers have made Sam so resistant to the idea of a normal life in the last season especially. Sure he made made mistakes with the whole Ruby and raising Lucifer thing but he's made up for it now. So what reason does he really have to keep hunting? If it's acceptable for Dean to settle down, why can't he? Uggh...I dunno, but I hope we see some of the old Sam again soon.

Sorry for the long post here...I just had some thoughts and questions that I wanted to discuss with others who know the show.

 

[Aeon]

It's simple really. Azazel didn't have all the pieces of the puzzle because he knew only what he needed to know. Only God and some of the angels (and maybe Lucifer himself to a certain extend) knew how everything would eventually work out.

 

[mswood]

Ok, lets do this point by point.

We know Azazel had 'plans' for Sam and those like him, right? Those plans were likely being the vessel for Lucifer (for the winner of his competition) and leading the lower level demons (if he really, really liked any of the others enough to keep them alive).

Yes he purpose was to be the true vessel of Lucifer.

But...we also know being an angel's vessel is sort of a genetic/bloodline thing, right? Nick wasn't in the true bloodline to be Lucifer's host so he ended up being burnt out pretty quickly.

I would assume Nick like many others as some aspect but just not as much as Sam.

Does this mean that Azazel chose all the 'psychic' kids to infect based on their bloodlines being possible vessels? Was Sam just his 'favorite' because he had the bloodline to be Michael's vessel? How did he know for sure Mary would even stay with John Winchester at the point he made the deal let alone have a child that he could mark? She wasn't the one with the Michael bloodline so if she had ended up with someone else the child wouldn't have been as 'special'. It seems kind of...iffy and undemon like to leave a plan that open ended and with the possibility of failing. Perhaps that's why he infected so many and why he was working on a new generation already. Maybe this will be explained in the next season a bit...maybe the Campbell family had some angelic bloodline as well, I dunno.

Several points here. First we have no idea how much (or little Lucifer knows about earth, since he was imprisoned. He might have only been able to give Azazel a guideline. And since we know more that several beings are able to host angels without being the Prime host, Azazel might have been hitting up everyone he could sense that had the criteria he is looking for. As for the bloodline comment. Well if it is strictly a genetic code then pretty much everyone would have it (so I think its logical to assume that there has to be more), I would assume some other supernatural element besides just genetics must be passed down, and perhaps that is what Azazel is able to sense.

As to Mary, why she was her favorite, clearly the angels needed to her and John to breed. And for all we know Mary also could have the part of the blood line (just because John could be a short time host doesn't mean he was a strong host, or even as close as say Nick was). Or it could be that Lucifer imparted a sense that Mary would be the one to mate with the correct person. We don't now. But we really don't need to.

It still begs a few more questions for me, I guess. Is Lucifer's vessel bloodline tied to Michael's? Is that why "it had to be Sam"? If that's the case wouldn't Dean or even Adam have also been a substitute for Sam just like Sam could have also been Micheal's?

Should be with what fragments we know. As to why it had to be Sam. Well thats quiet easy. Azazel needed to seed the (I would assume infant as that is always who he hit) child with his blood. This change being necessary to help hold the host. Why Lucifer needed this aspect unlike Michael who knows, perhaps it has to do with his imprisonment. As to why Sam and not Dean. Thats even easier. The deal was always ten years hence. Clearly higher powers were always going to make sure Mary & John had a kid in the ten year time frame that would be a baby. That baby was Sam. And for symmetry they made sure a child was born earlier, thus Dean.

Is being Lucifer's vessel tied to the whole demon blood thing? Why are the rules for being a vessel for Lucifer different than the other angels?

Nothing is ever stated or hinted, except that it gives him the best possible chance. I would guess one of two things. Either some aspect of hell has changed Lucifer slightly from other Angels and thus elements of hell is needed to maximize that host. Or Lucifer (after losing his first attempt) is trying to give himself a little edge over Michael, and that would be by seeded a touch of extra ability into his hosts. But that is complete speculation. Or for that matter the demon blood aspect might have been a way of making sure Sam couldn't be a host for Michael. We don't know and really we don't need to.

Another point that bugs me...what would have been the point to Azazel raising Lucifer? Wouldn't that cause him to lose some of the influence on Earth that he had? Would he really have settled to be the right hand man? I suppose it's moot since he was gone before it happened, but it's interesting to think about. Maybe like Ruby he was expecting some kind reward if he had seen it through to the end?

Thats really easy. He is their creator. they perceive that he loves them. When Azazel was walking the earth, very few demons were out. He might have been the top dog of demons walking the earth, but demons didn't have much sway on the earth. He would want his kind out and would of course assume he would be greatly rewarded. Plus if Azazel really started to tear it up on earth, angels could have kicked his ass.

Lastly...Azazel talks to Sam about how he had the demon that was possessing Brady kill Jessica to get him back into hunting (although he originally claimed it was himself, it was retconned later to be Brady). How it was important that Sam was 'sharp'. Was that just sharp for the purposes of the competition? Wouldn't Azazel have wanted that for ALL his intended? Why didn't he make sure all the other children were also raised as hunters? Wasn't Jake with his military training just in the last few years just as well prepared as Sam (without the benefit of knowing how to fight off demons)? It seems kind of silly to WANT your favorite trained in ways to hunt and kill your own kind. It doesn't really make sense to me...you'd think he'd want Sam weak and pliable, easily hooked on the demon blood fast in order to get to being Lucifer's vessel quickly. Being trained as a hunter seems counter intuitive to Azazel's plans, because the person knows just how bad demons can be an why it's bad to work with them no matter the situation. Someone not trained in the supernatural (like Jake) would be more likely to agree (as he did) to help than someone who was.

Another really easy one. Clearly Azazel believes Sam has something special. You would want your prized stallion to have the best possible chance. And your comment about why he would want them trained in ways to kill them, well besides the colt there is no way to kill a demon. At best just to temporarily get them off of earth. And you would certainly want them to know about monsters. Look how off balance Jake was (let alone all the others), but Sam being trained to not only fight, but to be knowledgable about the the Supernatural it gives him both the physical skills to thrive but the mental advantage in being able to deal with unexplained events. And frankly it makes perfect sense that Brody was the one to actually kill Jessica. As Azazel was still seeding kids, but clearly we know he did send demons out to check on Sam (we saw that with both Meg and the demon in the episode Croatoan). And people who give the order to have some one killed often refer to themselves as the one who did it.

We did see that Azazel did influence some more then others. Look at the twins, one was driven by YED to hone his ability for the purpose of harming others, the other wasn't. He could then use these excess kids as basically cannon fodder to try and get the proper match.

I just hope...in all seriousness that the writers work on maybe a return of the old Sam a bit in this next season. To me at least it seems like there's a Sam 1.0 from season 1 and 2 and then Sam 2.0 in the later seasons and it almost seems like they're unrelated, they're so totally...different from each other.

Sorry don't see how that is even a possibility. The reason you saw such a difference between season one Sam and Season two is he is no longer a kid who wants a normal life who feels the need to avenge the death of his girlfriend. Season 2 he has learned he has a demonic connection and believes he is cursed to turn evil. He feels the only way to save himself is to save as many people as possible.

While he has gotten darker with the loss of his brother, that has still been one of his primary motivations. Being able to take this curse and make something good out of it. While he wants Dean to have a life and die of old age (we see this clearly in Criss Angel is a Douche Bag), he knows that wont be the case for him.

And know after being manipulated and lied to so that instead of saving the world he caused the apocalypse to nearly start, he is going to feel the burden of all those who did die in the process. He is going to be driven to try and make some amends for that. I think he will hunt for the rest of his days.

And its why he left Dean without telling him he is back. Sam has always understood the need and desire to have a legitimate life. That living a hunters life without even forming a solid steady home, means Dean will never be able to have his own family. And he is well aware of how important family is to Dean. So if he told Dean he is alive, he knows Dean would stay with him. Thus never getting the chance to have his own life and family.

He hasn't made up for it, he knows he can't, the only thing he can do is to make the most of his life by helping as much as he can.

 

[Aeon]

Also don't forget Sam's resurrection in the second season finale. We still don't quite know if he is 100% pure Sam. It might not be a huge change, but a little bit of difference combined with his own "depression" for the lack of a better word might do the trick and bring about the said version 2.0.

Yeah, I know, it's unlikely that that is the case, but still it's an interesting thought.

 

[Vendikarr]

Azazel was charged with the task of preparing the way for Lucifer's rising. The first step in this plan was to find psychic infants and taint them with demon blood. This way they were still human, but demon influenced. This was to find a human to open the hell gate since the demons could not cross Colt's demon trap.

Azazel must have assumed that Sam would be the winner of his contest. And when you look at it, he was, seeing as he was brought back by Dean's crossroad deal, and he killed the guy who killed him.

Sams dying would be the only way to get Dean to make a crossroad deal and end up in Hell to start the chain.

I think the psychic children were a diversion and a training exercise for Sam. If he thought he was the only one, he would have killed himself. But with others, he had someone to help, which kept their true meaning masked.

From the beginning, it was always going to be Sam.

 

[Aeon]

Sams dying would be the only way to get Dean to make a crossroad deal and end up in Hell to start the chain.

Good point.

 

[mswood]

Vendikaar

I don't think the kids were psychic (like say Missouri or Pamela). I think that was only the influence of Azazel's blood.

I always was curious about one thing. Ruby's blood and the blood of an ordinary Demon seem to give Sam limited (though powerful abilities in quantity), but Azazel (a demon who was far higher up on the chain then any other demon Sam drank from as an adult) gave rise to a whole host of abilities, abilities that not only could harm demons but humans an the rest of the physical world as well.

So I am curious if YED had survived or if Sam had managed to hold one of the white eyed demons they had) and bleed them. How much more powerful could Sam have been?

 

[AliciaD496]

^I think that may have been part of the reason, maybe, that Lilith was so afraid of Sam. His immunity to her 'white beam of doom' unnerved her at first because it showed how powerful he was, even without extra demon blood in him. The next time she actually saw him in The Monster At the End of the Book she knew Ruby had him hooked and wanted to help him be ready for Lucifer, and her more powerful blood would help that along.

As for the rest of it...I think I'm doing what's we called in law school as 'fighting the hypo'. I'm wanting to add in my own facts and conclusions that just aren't there because of how I really want to see things turn out and not how they really are. Personally I've always thought hunting was kind of crazy (Dean said it best in Yellow Fever, really) and don't get why anyone would keep it up full time, especially if they had two small kids like John Winchester did at the time he started. If I just accept that while some actually hunt part time but research and aid full time (like Bobby, Rufus?, and probably Pastor Jim) and others like the Winchesters (and Gordon, Caleb?, other hunters mentioned as 'Dad's friends') hunt full time. It still just doesn't seem like a way to raise a kid to me, but again I'm fighting the hypo because it is what it is and that's how it was on the show. It probably makes me kind of masochistic for watching a show about something I think is stupid and dangerous (that and I'm not really a fan of firearms), but I think the whole brother relationship is what keeps me watching. Lately, though...it seems like they're almost codependent (as was said in Sam, interrupted) so maybe a year long break between them is a good idea. I just don't like this whole of idea of Sam suddenly becoming more like Dean...because only Dean can and should be Dean, y'know? I also think that's what's been bugging me the last year or so with the whole situation.

As to all my questions about Azazel and the psychic kids and Lucifer. I think you're right in thinking that the others were just a distraction for the Winchesters and probably the hunting community in general. It fits the demon MO to mess with a bunch of heartbroken people and innocent baby's lives just for kicks.

I get the feeling that Lucifer knew it was going to be Sam and he probably let Azazel make the plans on how to get Sam in the right position to help release him from the cage, and Azazel just went the extra mile by messing with the other so-called psychics. I still kind wish they'd kept Ava around in a way, she would have made an interesting temporary Lucifer in season 5.

I get what you're saying about Sam as well, and how he sees things and why he'll likely continue to hunt. It just...bugs me though. It just seems like Dean's always held up as the 'golden child', he was the better son, the better hunter, the chosen one by the angels. He has memories of their mother, their home in Lawrence, a life before hunting. Sam's always been uprooted and never really got to know what it was like to have a Mom (as much as Dean probably made up for those things, there's only so much a boy can do), never had a real home. Keeping Sam 'innocent' from hunting until he was 8 doesn't make up for all those things plus the fact his family basically lied to him for all those years (and put him in danger simply by putting him near hunts ala the shritga incident).

People say Dean never had a real childhood, but I'd argue Sam never did either. I think BOTH of them deserve to get a stable, regular home after all they've sacrificed. I could see both, but Sam especially, being more of a Bobby to the hunting community in the long term. Sam's always touted as being a good researcher (at least he used to be....they don't talk about that much anymore) so he could use that to help the next generation of hunters, plus help out now and again. He'd just have to have a front, I could see him running a library or even being a mythology professor.

Personally I think willingly jumping into hell, and Lucifer's cage specifically, more than makes up for the mistake of trusting Ruby. As for his being 'cursed' by the demon blood, it's not like he had a choice when it happened. He's used his powers for good now, he used them to beat both Famine and Lucifer. What more does he need to prove to himself that he's not going to go dark side?

But again, I'm probably fighting the hypo. As you said Sam doesn't really see himself growing old, and at the rate both Winchesters die who knows how many times they have left on the magic reset button that gets pulled out for them time and again anyway. It's probably not going to happen that Sam semi-retires in the end, but you never know for sure how Season 6 (or the possible end of the series...whichever) will actually go. It'll probably keep me watching even if I want to throw stuff at my TV in the mean time.

 

[Teelie]

It should also be noted that in Supernatural's mythos, Christianity isn't the only true religion and the things we don't understand might be part of a greater cosmic plan. Other religions, dating as far back as Ancient Egypt appear to be represented only not as powerfully. It's also hinted at that those other gods are weaker from a lack of belief in them. None of that is outright stated but it can easily be implied and isn't exactly an unheard of trope.

Sam and Dean's bloodline might truly be the direct descendents of Cain and Able, from a Christianity point of view. It's possible that not all or even most humans have that bloodline in them and that of those who did, Sam and Dean's parentage held it the strongest.

As to how Lucifer and Azazel knew, they knew the angels were going to set this up and wanted it just as badly. There was not much to guess from that. It's even declared as happening several times in the series once the Michael/Lucifer angle comes into play.

What we don't know is how religion plays into the creation of gods, demons, monsters and humans in this universe. The fact they dedicated an entire episode to other beliefs makes that much clear.

 

[Checkmate]

My problem is that the "bloodline" bit doesn't make any sense whatsoever. The big deal about Sam and Dean, apparently, was that they were the descendants of Cain and Abel.

Which, you know, makes them exactly the same as everyone else on the planet.

 

[mswood]

My problem is that the "bloodline" bit doesn't make any sense whatsoever. The big deal about Sam and Dean, apparently, was that they were the descendants of Cain and Abel.

Which, you know, makes them exactly the same as everyone else on the planet.

Well see thats taking the wording literally. And lets face it it was said by an Angel (not someone who is working under human perceptions). Perhaps by bloodline they mean something besides just DNA, something that gets passed down to only one family each generation. For example we do know that demons pass things through blood that are more then just DNA, we know that. Why then couldn't something beyond what we understand of DNA be "the bloodline" aspect?

 

[mswood]

AliciaD496

I don't think the producers are trying to make Sam Dean, or Dean Sam. The show has been very upfront that when Sam is all business he is the one who is actually more like John then Dean is. Even Den has noticed that Sam is much more like John then he is like Dean (and that certainly applies to Hunting).

And really while its true that Sam had what had to a be a sucky childhood, Dean's wasn't a real picnic either. Dean probably has almost no real memories of his mother, he remembers his Dad at the worst state of John's live. By the time Sam is old enough to know anything, John as already adjusted to his grief and the hunting life.

And as for having a real life. Sam had as a adult 2 - 4 years (depending on what dialogue is accurate, personally 3 makes sense) of normal life (or what he thought was normal life), this year for Dean will be the only time as an adult (and hell going back to when he was 4) to actually have a "normal" life.

As for the boys being codependent, yeah because they are to a massive degree. The show has basically implied they are soul mates (Slash fans go crazy everywhere) as both could move through each other's heaven experience (and that only something soul mates are supposed to be able to do).

 

[Snick27]

Just been rewatching season 1. Forgot just how much fun this series was in the early days. Im still laughing at how they act lol.
Im trying to catch things that i didnt the first time around. Found it odd that Sam dreamed about Jess dieing a few days before she actually did. Just got done watching Skin and seeing the double of Dean tell Sam how he is jealous of him going to school cause Dean had dreams too. Kind of reflect that season 5. Nice to see little tidbits like this.

HookMan wasnt as bad as i remembered either. It was the first episode that introduced Rock Salt in the guns. Best part was the beginning where they go to the church and Dean lets the door slam loud and everyone at the church turns around. Love the soundtrack for this season. Why didnt they use that much music in later seasons?

 

[mswood]

Why did they cut down on the classic rock? Very simple. It cost money to get clearance to use songs. And as the serious progressed casting got much more expensive (but for the most part they hired better actors) and the scope of filming increased. If it came to using music or better serving the story, the music almost always lost.

 

[Jack Bauer]

Funny how I really loved use of the classic rock yet I've never noticed we've gotten less of it in recent seasons. I guess it's because I got more into the plots and the brothers relationship. The music just kind of faded into the background for me.