[Question] Why do people hate VOY so much?

[Lynx]

I'm just questioning whether it was criticized more extensively than any other high-profile genre show.

Yes, that is exactly where I thought you have been trying to go with this; and I want to nip it in the bud. There is no call to insinuate the OP really can't know what he or she is talking about and has no right to claim.

When I sought out the TrekBBS in 2000, the atmosphere here in the VOY forum was absolutely NUCLEAR. There was so much hatred toward the show and abuse of its fans (woe to those who actually liked the show) that I didn't come back for six months; hence my start date here of Feb 2001. It wasn't any different when I did return, but I didn't think it was fair that I should have to stay away because a lot of fans were behaving poorly.

The issue in my opinion was that Niners were expecting more DS9, and they didn't get it. They got something different, and they were furious. Some years ago a poster did a bbs-wide survey here as a school project and learned that 60% of the respondents were DS9 fans first -- and that 40% of them liked no other Trek than DS9. So in addition to what they themselves said here in the forum, this survey bore out the reason for the bitterness. Niners were who we heard from the most.

But one doesn't have to go back that far; there are plenty of people here now that will tell you the life of a fan of the show has been rough in this forum. It's not been a place for actual fans of the show but rather detractors of the show.

I guess it's too much to expect that some so-called fans keep their qualified approval, backhanded compliments and lukewarm response to themselves. No one needs their crumbs. After all these years, I am way past fatigued of hearing how they really "don't hate the show," but are just "disappointed" and feel it "fell short" and "didn't live up to its premise," ad nauseam. I personally am not interested in the angst they suffer in their struggle with VOY. We all have things we don't like; just move on, for pete's sake.

There were a lot of crap going on here then, both betwen certain "Niners" and Voyager fans and also among the Voyager fans themselves. I know, because I let myself be involved into that crap. I'm not particularily proud of my "contributions" back then, I'm just telling you how it was.

The mods did try to stop the worst bickering but that proved to be difficult until they had enough and cleared out the mess. Since then, it has been a peaceful place.

I guess that some "Niners" took out their frustration on Voyager at that time.

Honestly, some Voyager fans, me among them were and still are dissapointed when it comes to certain aspects of the series. However, most of us try to look at the good sides most of all, at least nowadays.

Hopefully I have also become a better person in recent years. At least I try to be that.

 

[Jeri]

Well, the Lynx is kind of a special case, since he is pretty much a "Kes" fan first; so one can picture how VOY got crossways with the Lynx.

 

[Ghost]

VOY seems to have a huge fandom in Germany. I'm sure there must be regional differences.

Voyager is shown more often in free TV than TOS. They show TOS on TV stations I can't receive.

As to Voyager, TNG, and to a lesser extent DS9: they are currently stuck in a temporary causality loop.

I wish that was the case here in the Netherlands as at this point I would not mind some Star Trek shows on television again, even if it is just old episodes.

As for this debate, I was a big Voyager fan myself and not much of a fan of Deep Space Nine, so when Niners would bash Voyager in order to claim the superiority of their own show I would take it somewhat personal (silly I know) and would seek to undermine 'their' show in whatever way I could.

But perhaps it came with the years (well definitely with the last two, three Voyager seasons) that I came to recognize the flaws in the series and that Deep Space Nine does have some good episodes that do not delve into the spiritual bullshit/back to nature stuff/angry black man, or did it in such a way that I did find it entertaining to watch and sometimes even thought about it afterwards.

(I still think Eddington was spouting bullshit though about how good it felt to grow crops with his own hands. Guess what, no one forces you to use the replicator if you don't want to. You can use it as little as you want if you prefer doing regular agriculture instead.
It is not some insidious tool created to take away all natural food from you.
Sorry end rant)

Looking back I feel all series have their good episodes and their bad episodes (yep, even Enterprise) and as a result I don't put one series over another.
There are of course moments I would much rather watch say TNG or Ent, than Voyager, DSN, and Classic at that moment.

 

[Disco]

I preferred Voyager after Kes left and Seven joined although that's more down to Star Trek series needing a couple of seasons to settle (TNG/DS9/VOY & ENT)

 

[MacLeod]

I'm just questioning whether it was criticized more extensively than any other high-profile genre show.

Yes, that is exactly where I thought you have been trying to go with this; and I want to nip it in the bud. There is no call to insinuate the OP really can't know what he or she is talking about and has no right to claim.

When I sought out the TrekBBS in 2000, the atmosphere here in the VOY forum was absolutely NUCLEAR. There was so much hatred toward the show and abuse of its fans (woe to those who actually liked the show) that I didn't come back for six months; hence my start date here of Feb 2001. It wasn't any different when I did return, but I didn't think it was fair that I should have to stay away because a lot of fans were behaving poorly.

The issue in my opinion was that Niners were expecting more DS9, and they didn't get it. They got something different, and they were furious. Some years ago a poster did a bbs-wide survey here as a school project and learned that 60% of the respondents were DS9 fans first -- and that 40% of them liked no other Trek than DS9. So in addition to what they themselves said here in the forum, this survey bore out the reason for the bitterness. Niners were who we heard from the most.

But one doesn't have to go back that far; there are plenty of people here now that will tell you the life of a fan of the show has been rough in this forum. It's not been a place for actual fans of the show but rather detractors of the show.

I guess it's too much to expect that some so-called fans keep their qualified approval, backhanded compliments and lukewarm response to themselves. No one needs their crumbs. After all these years, I am way past fatigued of hearing how they really "don't hate the show," but are just "disappointed" and feel it "fell short" and "didn't live up to its premise," ad nauseam. I personally am not interested in the angst they suffer in their struggle with VOY. We all have things we don't like; just move on, for pete's sake.

But raising critisims of anything is perfectly valid, and lets be honest here DSN didn't really begin to hit it's stride until towards the end of S2 and into S3 right around the time VOY premiered. And even then DSN was only lightly serialised no more really than TNG had been with things like Worf's Klingon arc. If anything fans would be comparing it to TNG the show it directly replaced and both shows were ship based. And yes by S7 TNG had begun to struggle for ideas coimpared to the high point of S3-5.

And as you rightly point out we all have things we like and don't like. So one could like certain aspects about VOY say a character or two, the production style etc.. but could find some things they don't like i.e a character or two, lack of any real consequences in most episodes.

Say I could say the EMH was the best character on the show and Seven was a agood character but they began to dominate the show and the likes of Chakotay and Kim recieved very little development.

I could say that the writting of some characters was inconsistant but that's true to various degrees on many shows not just VOY.

Some people like DSN some don't, same goes for ENT, it might just be me but VOY seems to have more degrees of like or dislike than other Trek shows, if that is the case why?

Yes I may critise VOY but I will give it praise where I think it deserved it be it an actor, episode etc.., but if I really hated it I have better things to do than go into a forum and say that.

 

[Overgeeked]

Maybe this is just semantics, but I don't necessarily see falling ratings as "nastiness." Losing interest in a show is not the same as vilifying it. That's just deciding that you have better things to do with your time. If I "hated" every TV show that I stopped watching, I'd be drowning in bitterness.

Sure. I wasn't equating viewership with nastiness, rather I was trying to say "I don't know about the nastiness on the 'net at the time, but the fans sure didn't seem to want to watch."

I have the soundtrack album, too, and love VOYAGER's theme music, which is one of my favorite pieces of Trek music.

Absolutely. It has a great theme. I generally love the music and scores and sound effect from Trek. VOY's music and intro are definitely up there.

But raising critisims of anything is perfectly valid...

Yes I may critise VOY but I will give it praise where I think it deserved it be it an actor, episode etc.., but if I really hated it I have better things to do than go into a forum and say that.

I think that's the crux of the thing right there. When one show is your favorite and everyone seems to dog pile, that sucks. And when everyone seems to be having a love-in for something you think is terrible, that sucks, too.

The trick is, I think, to not simply bash or simply adore, rather to try to be objective at least in part. Recognize the flaws and be honest about them, but also give praise where it's due. "It could have been better" =/= "It's the worst thing ever!"

 

[K'Toska]

DS9 is my favorite, but I still love Voyager. I don't think that many people I know personally dislike it -- just that it isn't their favorite. For me, Voyager is tied with TOS. I love Captain Janeway, Kes, and Vorik (major nerd crush unnnngh). I like all of the characters really. I wasn't a big fan of Seven of Nine until a recent rewatch, but when it comes down to it, there are some great episodes starring her. Voyager has its problems, but in my opinion, so does every series. They aren't glaring enough to keep me from being able to enjoy the show!

 

[Greg Cox]

For me, Voyager is tied with TOS. I love Captain Janeway, Kes, and Vorik (major nerd crush unnnngh).

I probably shouldn't admit that I actually tried to kill off Vorik at one point, and even pitched the idea to the show's producers.

You'll be glad to know they didn't bite.

 

[Anwar]

Voyager would've been better off with a reduced main cast anyways.

The Primaries should've just been Janeway, Chakotay, Tuvok, the Doctor and Paris.

Kim, Kes, Torres and Neelix would've worked better as recurring Secondaries.

 

[Lynx]

^^
I think it worked fine with the nine main characters in seasons 1-3. All of them did get a place under the spotlight in certain episodes and some of the Kes, Neelix and Torres episodes were among the best. Kim was somewhat underused but had some good parts too.

Greg Cox wrote:

I probably shouldn't admit that I actually tried to kill off Vorik at one point, and even pitched the idea to the show's producers.

You'll be glad to know they didn't bite.

I wasn't particularily fond of Vorik but I'm happy that your ideas failed this time. I must admit that I find it hard to kill off characters of a show even if I'm not fond of them. Even in my worst anti-Seven days I wouldn't have dreamed of killing off the character.

Jeri wrote:

Well, the Lynx is kind of a special case, since he is pretty much a "Kes" fan first; so one can picture how VOY got crossways with the Lynx.

Maybe "nutcase" is a better description!

 

[hux]

Voyager would've been better off with a reduced main cast anyways.

The Primaries should've just been Janeway, Chakotay, Tuvok, the Doctor and Paris.

Kim, Kes, Torres and Neelix would've worked better as recurring Secondaries.

I would have preferred a bigger cast. DS9 worked because there were so many strands and threads to pull at; so many characters to explore. Voyager obviously couldn't have that huge canvas to work on but Voyager often felt too small and parochial. I never had a sense of the ships size or the hundreds of crew onboard or the relationships between Maquis and Starfleet underlings etc.

Like in Twisted when "everyone" was pushed to the centre of the ship.........but only the bridge crew actually ended up there

TNG got away with a smaller cast because they remained in touch with Starfleet and the Federation so you could play with that. Voyager didn't have that luxury and needed to explore its own crew a little more

 

[Kilana2]

For me, Voyager is tied with TOS. I love Captain Janeway, Kes, and Vorik (major nerd crush unnnngh).

I probably shouldn't admit that I actually tried to kill off Vorik at one point, and even pitched the idea to the show's producers.

You'll be glad to know they didn't bite.

There would still be TNG's Taurik - both Vorik and Taurik were played by Alexander Enberg.

Then Taurik probably has a transporter accident. Voilà, there is Vaurik.

 

[Lynx]

I've always considered Vorik and Taurik as the same character.

 

[K'Toska]

I probably shouldn't admit that I actually tried to kill off Vorik at one point, and even pitched the idea to the show's producers.

You'll be glad to know they didn't bite.

Very glad! My God man, what were you thinking?!

 

[Greg Cox]

I probably shouldn't admit that I actually tried to kill off Vorik at one point, and even pitched the idea to the show's producers.

You'll be glad to know they didn't bite.

Very glad! My God man, what were you thinking?!

What can I say? It seemed like a cool idea at the time.

(I confess, I had no idea that anyone was crushing on Vorik.)

 

[Anwar]

Voyager would've been better off with a reduced main cast anyways.

The Primaries should've just been Janeway, Chakotay, Tuvok, the Doctor and Paris.

Kim, Kes, Torres and Neelix would've worked better as recurring Secondaries.

I would have preferred a bigger cast. DS9 worked because there were so many strands and threads to pull at; so many characters to explore. Voyager obviously couldn't have that huge canvas to work on but Voyager often felt too small and parochial. I never had a sense of the ships size or the hundreds of crew onboard or the relationships between Maquis and Starfleet underlings etc.

Like in Twisted when "everyone" was pushed to the centre of the ship.........but only the bridge crew actually ended up there

TNG got away with a smaller cast because they remained in touch with Starfleet and the Federation so you could play with that. Voyager didn't have that luxury and needed to explore its own crew a little more

With DS9, they had the ability to explore the pre-established Trekverse to justify the larger cast.

TOS got by with only 3 main characters, so I don't see why VOY couldn't have only 5 Centrals with more recurring characters who pop in and out.

Of course, I think it shouldn't have been a Fed Starship at all. I think they should've been on some huge Alien Starship they found on the Array, something that can sustain thousands of people. A small city in space, run by automated systems so there's little need for a crew.

 

[K'Toska]

What can I say? It seemed like a cool idea at the time.

(I confess, I had no idea that anyone was crushing on Vorik.)

Something about that man... well, I'm not going to go into it here. To be fair, I didn't see Voyager until a few months ago so I wasn't crushing on him during the relevant time period. However, it would've devastated me later on! Please think of us Vorik enthusiasts in the past/present/future (should you end up traveling in time, of course).

 

[Lynx]

What can I say? It seemed like a cool idea at the time.

(I confess, I had no idea that anyone was crushing on Vorik.)

Something about that man... well, I'm not going to go into it here. To be fair, I didn't see Voyager until a few months ago so I wasn't crushing on him during the relevant time period. However, it would've devastated me later on! Please think of us Vorik enthusiasts in the past/present/future (should you end up traveling in time, of course).

I've never been a fan of Vorik but I do find it nice that there are Vorik fans around here too.

 

[K'Toska]

I didn't really have a preference for him either way the first time I watched Voyager. Since I've rewatched it though, that has definitely changed! Weird thing is that he's the only Trek character I've ever had a legitimate crush on.

 

[The Overlord]

I don't think people hate Voyager, but instead are disappointed by it.

Voyager should have been a story about surviving beyond the frontier and making sacrifices to deal with the reality of being cut off from the Federation.

Instead we got recycled TNG scripts and characters who were either annoying or just dull, like Neelix, Kim and Chakotay. The ship should have changed a lot during this journey, but hardly ever did and having the ship be wrecked in one episode and be fine in the next, with no explanation, ruins any sort drama the show is supposed to produce. The show should have a contusing story and not be episodic.