Question to those most disappointed with the SW prequels

[cooleddie74]

Lucas and others involved with the original film have more or less admitted that Hidden Fortress was a major influence on ANH, right down to the two droids being stand-ins for the two Japanese villagers who served as travel companions and comic relief in the Kurosawa film. Lucas embraced Kurosawa's influences and style.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

It's hard to write off the similarities to Hidden Fortress or Jack Kirby's New Gods as mere coincidence.

Of course not - ditto for the others I mentioned. They were all influences. Some moreseo than others. The end result is still a combination of those influences unlike what anyone had seen before. That's the key point.

ETA:
I'm amused (and enjoying) how the conversation has shifted from a critical discussion of the prequels, to a critical discussion of the original film and the saga as a whole.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I still don't know where all this DUNE stuff is going. Spice? Okay. Maybe. But the word spice and spices' collective value as a traded commodity goes back many centuries here on Earth, so it may have had nothing to do with Frank Herbert. At all.

Psst. Hey. Do you want to buy some really good oregano?

Remember, Lucas immersed himself in history and mythology and I don't think we can just say that Han dumping a spice shipment meant for Jabba is any proof that DUNE is directly referenced. If it was, fine. Cool. But....where's the evidence, though? And does it matter?

Oh, it's probably an allusion or, if you prefer, a reference. Given all the other apparent shout-outs, the odds that something so prominent in Dune isn't being shouted-out to are kinda low.

As to what all the nods are, you've got: a desert planet, Dune Sea is a pretty clear wink, the Tusken Raiders and their desert wear that collects moisture, that giant snakelike skeleton in the desert as already mentioned, the word spice, and maybe a couple of other minor tidbits like seeker droids (cf hunter-seekers).

You put it all together, and it's like, OK this is crafted to appeal to people who've read Dune. That's the bottom line.

You could say the same thing about it being crafted to appeal to people who like Star Trek. You've deflectors, tractor beams, Federations (in the PT), etc.

Or Flash Gordon. You've got scrolling prologues in perspective, space Emperors, maidens in space in peril, etc.

Sorry to those who think otherwise, but these aren't rip-offs.

Here's a nice little bit from http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_made_Star_Wars_such_a_popular_hit, FWIW:

Star Wars is an intentional pastiche of nostalgiac references to 1940s and 1950s pop culture (especially old movie serials) and especially Flash Gordon, as well as an homage to the cinema of American westerns, and the films of Kurosawa, John Ford, etc. , among others. This self-conscious nostalgic pastiche in Star Wars (story lines, themes, etc.) is perhaps misunderstood by the minority who saw Star Wars as not citational but plagiaristic. Clearly, however, its nostalgic elements resonated with older audiences who recognized the themes and formulas that George Lucas was playing with, even as younger audiences were exposed to these often for the first time. Star Wars in many ways started the trend toward "retro" in movies--not merely remaking old movies, but mixing and matching retro elements into something new and different.

 

[cooleddie74]

That better be pure, uncut oregano or I'll callin' the space cops.

Star Wars took a little bit from so many sources dating back to the legends and archetypes of ancient Greece that yeah, DUNE is probably likely given the examples you mentioned. SW is hardly original in any way shape or form except in the ways it took classic weaponry and other references and gave them a sophisticated, technologically-advanced sci-fi/fantasy twist. In the end a lightsaber is just a really, really badass and original concept of a traditional warrior's sword.

But there's nothing wrong with being unoriginal so long as the movie or TV show is profoundly entertaining and has a lasting, positive impact, and SW definitely did both of those in spades.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

^^ That's a good (and better) summation of what I was trying to convey: Namely that Star Wars really was the result of taking a lot of influences and throwing them into a blender - even if the speed was set low enough to be able to distinguish the ingredients after the fact, it was still a unique and enjoyable mix.

 

[BigJake]

Much of the Lucas universe derives from ancient myth and archetypes more than modern literature such as Dune or sci-fi such as 2001 and Star Trek, though I'm certain that one and fairly sure at least two of those had profound influence on the crafting of the SW universe and the characters.

Lucas was more about Joseph Campbell and the ancient Greek writers than he was Frank Herbert.

You know, I know this is the line Lucas became fond of trotting out -- certainly I remember reading a lot about Joseph Campbell in early promo for the prequels -- but I think Steven Hart was 100% correct to point out back in the day that this is bantha poodoo. Lucas' universe owes its substance to the Lensmen and to Barsoom and to 30s serials. (Not to mention to Leigh Brackett.)

It's mainly possible to map Joseph Campbell's notions of archetypes onto it because Campbell is a hugely overrated bullshitter whose criteria for seeing resemblances between the myths out of which he builds his "archetypes" amount to "I say so." (I'm not kidding: the brave should try struggling through his The Masks of God: Primitive Mythology sometime.)

 

[Set Harth]

All 4 volumes of The Masks of God were assigned reading in my college class.

( Volume II, Oriental Mythology is especially relevant to the Taoist underpinnings of Lucas' concept of the Force. )

to point out back in the day that this is bantha poodoo.

Of course, back in the day "bantha poodoo" meant bantha fodder, a substance that players of the video game Knights of the Old Republic should remember...

You could say the same thing about it being crafted to appeal to people who like Star Trek. You've deflectors, tractor beams, Federations (in the PT), etc.

Obi-Wan having a Spock-in-The Immunity Syndrome moment when entering Alderaan local space...

Gary Mitchell doing stuff that would later be done by Vader and Palpatine... et cetera...

 

[BigJake]

Of course, back in the day "bantha poodoo" meant bantha fodder, a substance that players of the video game Knights of the Old Republic should remember...

Touche.

(I'm not remembering the reference in KOTOR, but it's been a while...)

 

[Greylock Crescent]

It's mainly possible to map Joseph Campbell's notions of archetypes onto it because Campbell is a hugely overrated bullshitter whose criteria for seeing resemblances between the myths out of which he builds his "archetypes" amount to "I say so." (I'm not kidding: the brave should try struggling through his The Masks of God: Primitive Mythology sometime.)

Try reading Campbell's The Mythic Image. He produces more evidence than, simply, "I say so."

And I'll definitely give The Masks of God a read.

 

[AgentCoop]

I'm pretty impressed to learn that Frank Herbert evidently invented the idea of a desert planet.

 

[cooleddie74]

Since it takes place about 10 years prior to A New Hope the new animated series Rebels falls into the Prequel time frame and more images have leaked about the new show over the last few months (including the appearance of the Inquisitor villain who participates in helping to hunt down the remaining Jedi and appears to be of the Pau'an species first seen in Episode III). I wonder how fans will react to the new series once it premieres. It's a hybrid of PT and OT elements with a CGI flavor resembling The Clone Wars.

It's gonna be interesting to watch. Both the show and the fan reactions.

 

[BillJ]

Since it takes place about 10 years prior to A New Hope the new animated series Rebels falls into the Prequel time frame and more images have leaked about the new show over the last few months (including the appearance of the Inquisitor villain who participates in helping to hunt down the remaining Jedi and appears to be of the Pau'an species first seen in Episode III). I wonder how fans will react to the new series once it premieres. It's a hybrid of PT and OT elements with a CGI flavor resembling The Clone Wars.

It's gonna be interesting to watch. Both the show and the fan reactions.

I'll definitely tune-in to see if its any good.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I'm expecting to enjoy it, TCW at it's best was pretty good stuff! I'm interested to see this time frame.

 

[cooleddie74]

Me too. Just like with Trek you'll never please the more virulent and purist fans, but it seems there's more interest and excitement than there is disgruntlement about the new series. We've never seen the -10 BBY time frame depicted onscreen so this will be fascinating.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

I think most folks who watched TCW, and were able to get past the fact that it's animated, saw a show that was very well-balanced between good writing, good stories, good action, and good fun. One does have to wonder how the directives from Disney will affect the tone of the Rebels - TCW could get pretty dark at times, lending a bit of tension and realism to the stories - but with the vast majority of the original team turning its creative energies toward the new show, the prospects are pretty bright.

 

[cooleddie74]

I had my own worries that Disney would make any new animated series too kid-friendly and sterilize the action and suspense, but Disney as a corporation has long owned other production companies that produce rather adult and gritty films and television series, and I always like to bring up Miramax circa 1994 as a prime example. Disney was in charge of Miramax when both Pulp Fiction and the original Clerks were distributed and released, and those have to be two of the least family-friendly movies in recent memory.

Rebels can get gritty and dark (within limits, naturally) if they want, and I don't think Disney would want to risk softening the Star Wars brand in the wake of The Clone Wars and the events in Episode III. They were too popular with the fanbase to risk retooling the franchise into something more soft and cuddly just because the Mouse now owns Lucasfilm. Far too many fans would be alienated.

 

[Set Harth]

I'm pretty impressed to learn that Frank Herbert evidently invented the idea of a desert planet.

Invented? No. Popularized? Yes.

 

[Hound of UIster]

I had my own worries that Disney would make any new animated series too kid-friendly and sterilize the action and suspense,

I don't know where you are getting the impression from. Walt Disney himself isn't actually writing the story. If you look at the actual people doing the story, none of them are known for any of these qualities you described. In fact I'm more worried of these guys going overboard and sacrificing story and writer consistency for moments of cool.

 

[cooleddie74]

It was the general impression online and in many corners of the fanbase when Disney bought Lucasfilm and then greenlit the new show. That's all. Like I said, I had worries, but once reminded how many properties Disney owns that produce adult-themed material I'm not that concerned anymore. Besides, even if they did want to dumb down the franchise to make it more first grader-friendly, they won't risk the backlash and lost business. They know on which side their bread is buttered, big cartoon Mouse or not.

Disney owns Marvel and Marvel doesn't exactly slap its name on the most kid-friendly action films. The Avengers isn't Natural Born Killers, but it's not a Pixar movie about talking animals, neither. If Disney wants kid fare they'll make kid fare.

I'm more concerned that every episode will be a stream of continuity porn for the sake of continuity porn and linking the PT and OT, and that's not a good strategy neither. I hope they strike a good balance between referencing the rest of the Saga and Lucas universe and being somewhat original.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Rebels isn't a film. It's a (CGI) cartoon that will be broadcast on a premium cable channel that has a very specific demographic that's catered to. Concerns that Rebels won't appeal to adults to the same degree that The Clone Wars did are well-founded. The Marvel shows on Disney XD clearly target 6-15 year-olds.