Question to those most disappointed with the SW prequels
- Thread starter suarezguy
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Luke didn't kill the Gammorean Guards any more than Yoda killed Palpatine's red Royal Guards when he entered the new Emperor's office in the Senate. Luke just knocked the wind out of them so that he could make it successfully into the heart of Jabba's Palace, that's all.
I've seen a youtube video of the Batman Begins training scenes Star Warsized. And recently I've watched the various Musketeer films. And ever since then, I know that a mix of both (tone of BB and story of Musketeers) is what I would have loved to see.
An adult Anakin Skywalker recognizes his potential and wants to join the Jedi order. In the meantime, Palpatine starts intrigue and war against the Jedi. Anakin meets two or three “rogue“ Jedi, one of them Obi Wan, and they fight against Palpatine, the clones and the Sith in the trilogy.
Anakin would need to be incredible wise and warm. Not the spoiled jerk he was throughout the prequels. To make his downfall even more tragic, and even unexpected.
An adult Anakin Skywalker recognizes his potential and wants to join the Jedi order. In the meantime, Palpatine starts intrigue and war against the Jedi. Anakin meets two or three “rogue“ Jedi, one of them Obi Wan, and they fight against Palpatine, the clones and the Sith in the trilogy.
Anakin would need to be incredible wise and warm. Not the spoiled jerk he was throughout the prequels. To make his downfall even more tragic, and even unexpected.
But why would someone who was "incredibly wise" have fallen to the dark side in the first place? People seem to think Anakin should have been some kind of perfect Jedi - but even The Empire Strikes Back, from the holy and unimpeachable Original Trilogy, told us that he had been full of anger! For a rare pre-PT perspective on Anakin's characteristics which doesn't fit the typical rose-colored paradigm, I would suggest reading Shadows of the Empire.
On the issue of "unexpected": it's a prequel! We already know how things turn out, so how can the outcome ever be unexpected? Maybe that kind of thing might have been an option for the famous "numerical order" viewer who had neither watched the OT nor heard about its biggest spoiler through the cultural grapevine, but what about the rest of us?
While I don't agree with some of the ways that Hayden and Lucas portrayed Anakin in Episodes II and III I'm reminded of what a popular Hollywood director once said about the fall of Anakin Skywalker and the fans who are most vociferously opposed to Hayden's version of the character. Paraphrasing:
"People complain left and right about the whiny, spoiled, frustrated, angry emo kid being the one who turns to the Dark Side and becomes the galaxy's greatest villain, but isn't that whom you'd EXPECT to become a villain? The guy who always wanted more, was never satisfied with enough, whined all the time and had severe mommy issues? Those are the bastards who are most easily pushed over the line into darkness. The ones who were never had all that far to fall to begin with."
Not a perfect analysis and there are things to disagree with, but still - interesting points.
"People complain left and right about the whiny, spoiled, frustrated, angry emo kid being the one who turns to the Dark Side and becomes the galaxy's greatest villain, but isn't that whom you'd EXPECT to become a villain? The guy who always wanted more, was never satisfied with enough, whined all the time and had severe mommy issues? Those are the bastards who are most easily pushed over the line into darkness. The ones who were never had all that far to fall to begin with."
Not a perfect analysis and there are things to disagree with, but still - interesting points.
Exactly! I would almost think that was something I had posted, but I'm not a popular Hollywood director.
You think???
Apparently some EU writers didn't quite get that, as they referred to the "downfall" or "overthrow" of the Republic ( in some cases even after the PT ).
CorporalCaptain said:
You think???
CorporalCaptain said:
Apparently some EU writers didn't quite get that, as they referred to the "downfall" or "overthrow" of the Republic ( in some cases even after the PT ).
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Well, the actual subject, verb, and (unmodified) complement of that sentence are boldfaced here:
What you've highlighted is what I said that she failed to realize. So, yeah, in context, I do think so, absolutely.
Well, I read it as an accusation that I was being Captain Obvious, but perhaps I was wrong. 
No, Captain Obvious is Okona in Season 2 of TNG.
I've never seen a more obvious ripoff of Han Solo in my entire life outside of a Mel Brooks film.
I've never seen a more obvious ripoff of Han Solo in my entire life outside of a Mel Brooks film.
Yet it's the silent dudes that suddenly run amok.
Well that would have been the interesting thing, wouldn't it? I think choosing the dark side of the Force in order to do something for the greater good, thinking you could control it, and then ending up being controlled by it instead, that's the route they should have gone. In the actual prequels, it was just way too obvious and paint by numbers.
Should've, could've, would've. But they didn't. Maybe Anakin would have been a more interesting fallen character had he remained as positive and nice as he was when he was a nine-year-old boy eager to help some stranded visitors with a broken hyperdrive repair their ship and save the Republic, but I doubt it. The drama of Anakin's gradual decline into darkness starting with his separation from his mother is an appealing one, albeit hampered by Hayden's often-mediocre emoting and George's inadequate dramatic direction.
Tell me one thing, though: What's the deal with Padme?
She finds out that Annie's killed kids and the only thing that proves to be the Deal Breaker is that he wants to oust Palpatine and rule the Galaxy with her ... by his Dark Side. Did she not understand what "killing younglings" meant? Maybe she thought he meant he "killed" - as in downed/drank - a few Yuenglings, instead? No, sweetheart. Let's take it from the top ... 'kay?
The daddy of your "baby," the same one you want to hide away, by the waterfalls of Naboo - despite knowing his killing Sand People and other evil he does - is not above killing first graders. Oh, his orange-contacted eyes might glaze over, as he sheds a single tear and then agonizes about it, later ... but he certainly isn't above it. Now, if that doesn't say "Father of the Year" to the former Queen of the Galaxy, then I don't know what does. "Annie ... how could you?"
"...'Orders,' you know."
The absolute worst about the STAR WARS Prequels is that what's happening in the background ... in the street, or outside someone's window ... is always far more interesting, intriguing and worth investigating than what these movies are about.
She finds out that Annie's killed kids and the only thing that proves to be the Deal Breaker is that he wants to oust Palpatine and rule the Galaxy with her ... by his Dark Side. Did she not understand what "killing younglings" meant? Maybe she thought he meant he "killed" - as in downed/drank - a few Yuenglings, instead? No, sweetheart. Let's take it from the top ... 'kay?
The daddy of your "baby," the same one you want to hide away, by the waterfalls of Naboo - despite knowing his killing Sand People and other evil he does - is not above killing first graders. Oh, his orange-contacted eyes might glaze over, as he sheds a single tear and then agonizes about it, later ... but he certainly isn't above it. Now, if that doesn't say "Father of the Year" to the former Queen of the Galaxy, then I don't know what does. "Annie ... how could you?"
"...'Orders,' you know."
The absolute worst about the STAR WARS Prequels is that what's happening in the background ... in the street, or outside someone's window ... is always far more interesting, intriguing and worth investigating than what these movies are about.
When you're in love, you tend to forgive and overlook many faults in your beloved. That doesn't exonerate Padme - she most certainly enables Anakin, especially immediately following the slaughter of the Sand People. But that's life, sometimes. People still do stay with spouses who have committed crimes, even murder - others have even fallen in love with future spouses, knowing full-well what they did.
But I think it's more that, perhaps, Padme sees the same thing Luke saw: That there's good in Anakin, the little slave boy who was so willing to give everything he had on Tatooine. Perhaps she, too, is trying to help him find redemption for his mistakes.
But when she learns about not only his actions, but his intentions, in RotS, she decides that he is beyond saving. That final confrontation, by the way, also makes sense - wanting to see and hear for herself what Obi-Wan has told her.
But I think it's more that, perhaps, Padme sees the same thing Luke saw: That there's good in Anakin, the little slave boy who was so willing to give everything he had on Tatooine. Perhaps she, too, is trying to help him find redemption for his mistakes.
But when she learns about not only his actions, but his intentions, in RotS, she decides that he is beyond saving. That final confrontation, by the way, also makes sense - wanting to see and hear for herself what Obi-Wan has told her.
You make some very excellent points - thank you, by the way, for answering the question.
And yes, I did - and do - understand her confronting Annie about Obi-Wan's ratting him out. It's just that the conversation they had - especially and mostly on Annie's end - was, frankly ... absurd. Even now, Lucas is relentless with this idiotic movie dialogue. We get this feeling around-thing Lucas is doing, trying to make Annie's dialogue echo anything Vader might've said in the other movies. It comes off as arbitrary, because Annie's been very vocal and consistant about Padme's safety and security being his sole motivation for doing anything. Now, we get this garbage, last minute ... tacked on and poorly delivered. I liked what you said about people - surprisingly often - not really giving a shit about what someone they're hot for has done in the past - even if it's the recent past. As "real" as this may be, or is, it just doesn't play, in that scene ...
I certainly agree that Lucas and dialogue are, generally, not a good match. And Lucas could have (and should have) found a better way of conveying the emotions and conflicts Anakin and Padme express. But I disagree that the conversation itself is "absurd" or even "idiotic" or "tacked on" (you have a case for "poorly delivered" though). For most of that scene, Padme is trying to keep herself from believing what Obi-Wan said ... and even when Anakin essentially confesses, she's still trying to keep herself from believing what she is hearing. Denial is one of the stages of grieving, after all - and make no mistake, she's grieving the loss of her husband, her love, and the father of her unborn child. It's a necessary and important moment for the characters and the story.
As for Anakin's dialogue, I take it that he's essentially "high" on the Dark Side power he's feeling - and basically batshit insane. So his words are, unsurprisingly, raving.
Anakin choking Padme, and her subsequently giving up the will to live, however, I have a more difficult time reconciling.
As for Anakin's dialogue, I take it that he's essentially "high" on the Dark Side power he's feeling - and basically batshit insane. So his words are, unsurprisingly, raving.
Anakin choking Padme, and her subsequently giving up the will to live, however, I have a more difficult time reconciling.
Exactly! ALL that choking Padme was about, let's face it, was to set up the premise that Vader believes he killed her - and thusly their baby - and this, in fact, is the reason why he never revisits his roots on Tatooine, searching out the same. There's NO logic behind the choke thing, other than that. Unless, and I reluctantly make this concession, that Lucas just didn't want to show anybody smacking a woman around in a STAR WARS movie. But that's ... not it. That's not why it's there.
The whole denial thing with Padme is what I have the problem with. She's snapped Annie back to reality a couple of times before, in ATTACK of the CLONES, but now that she's not ruling the Galaxy, she's got this strange personality shift that's just there because it's in the script. In the beginning, yeah ... I buy the denial. But she's had a lot of time to mull this on the flight over.
She's talking to him now, directly. She's supposed to be so strong and there's none of that, here. She's not fighting for her marriage, for her husband's sanity, for the future of her kid. She's reduced to simply being a mechanism for emotional manipulation of the audience, instead of Lucas actually working the scene out. As important as this scene is - and as you pointed out, so much hinges on it - Lucas seems strangely uninterested ... and directorially unavailable.
The whole denial thing with Padme is what I have the problem with. She's snapped Annie back to reality a couple of times before, in ATTACK of the CLONES, but now that she's not ruling the Galaxy, she's got this strange personality shift that's just there because it's in the script. In the beginning, yeah ... I buy the denial. But she's had a lot of time to mull this on the flight over.
She's talking to him now, directly. She's supposed to be so strong and there's none of that, here. She's not fighting for her marriage, for her husband's sanity, for the future of her kid. She's reduced to simply being a mechanism for emotional manipulation of the audience, instead of Lucas actually working the scene out. As important as this scene is - and as you pointed out, so much hinges on it - Lucas seems strangely uninterested ... and directorially unavailable.
He just lost all control when he saw Obi-Wan on the ramp of Padmé's ship and lashed out at her because in his paranoid rage he thought she had conspired with his former Master to take him into custody. Behind the scenes the Force Choke was likely to give Vader the excuse to spend the next 20 years believing he had no children, but within the context of the story it's one of the darker, more effective examples of Anakin's descent into hell. The woman he's loved so much since he was a nine-year-old slave has just been psychokinetically choked into unconsciousness, something he wouldn't have remotely contemplated before he swore allegiance to Sidious/Palpatine and became a Sith.
While trying to save her, he destroyed her. Perhaps the greatest tragedy of the Saga.
While trying to save her, he destroyed her. Perhaps the greatest tragedy of the Saga.
