Question: SE02ep09: Metamorphosis

[JonnyQuest037]

Does anyone possibly know the reason - besides the obvious writers-answer that it traps the characters into the story until they solve the puzzle and win their escape - why The Big 3 and Commissioner Nancy Hedford are traveling by shuttlecraft to the Enterprise; instead of having the Enterprise travel to the planet to pick up Hedford?

I haven't thought about this story point a great deal (because it's frankly extraneous to the story Gene Coon was telling), but if I had to come up with a headcanon reason for it, I'd say there was probably something happening elsewhere that required the presence of the Enterprise. I'm imagining something similar to what we saw at the beginning of TNG's "The Schizoid Man," where the Enterprise-D went off to deal with a medical emergency while Data, Worf, Troi, and Dr. Selar beamed down to tend to Ira Graves. But whatever the Enterprise was dealing with couldn't have been TOO serious, since Kirk, Spock, and McCoy were all on the shuttle to get Nancy Hedford.

Personally, I'm more curious why Kirk picked McCoy, Scotty, and Uhura to beam down with him to negotiate dilithium mining rights with the Halkans in "Mirror, Mirror." (Although that's equally extraneous to the story Jerome Bixby was telling.)

 

[dupersuper]

Personally, I'm more curious why Kirk picked McCoy, Scotty, and Uhura to beam down with him to negotiate dilithium mining rights with the Halkans in "Mirror, Mirror."

McCoy to demonstrate medical advances the Federation could offer (and because he's one of Kirk's besties), Scotty to inspect the dilithium if the deal went through and Uhura as communications officer (the closest they may have to an onboard diplomat besides Kirk and Spock)?

 

[Timo]

Oh I see where you are having a problem. You assume that the shuttle must be faster in order to catch up and then maintain this minimal gap.

Which is necessary, yes.

After the shuttle stalls, the starship continues at her speed (whether maximum warp or something else, we aren't told). Spock and McCoy exchange a few words, Spock ponders, and then enters the program that stops the ship. There's no way the stalled shuttle could cover even this extra distance in two hours or even two weeks, other than

1) the starship's speed indeed being something else than maximum warp, that is, very low sublight, or
2) warp coasting being a thing (but it is not).

And no, the lead car doesn't widen the gap "slowly" in this chase - it does so "fast". Which is in keeping with the scenario where the shuttle can't perform at all, not with the one where there is slight hope.

Mendez never believes he and Kirk have any hope, and is very clear about that, only ever talking about turning back. If this were an unbelievable assessment by the veteran officer, we'd be back to your square one where the events make no sense but the heroes don't react. But that's the square where we are sitting anyway, if we want to believe in a chase.

Yet there was no chase. The villains' (protagonists'?) plans hinge on a mere illusion of a chase, on this fake chase failing and delivering "Mendez" and Kirk to the ship. This is easily achieved if the shuttle just warp-crawls and the starship matches that crawl - but the more speed we give to the duo, the wider the gap at the moment Spock stops, and even at very low warp, it would already be inconveniently wide.

(Additionally, there is no chase afterwards. The starbase doesn't send starships to intercept the Enterprise; no other ships are vectored in, either. People in general are utterly disinterested in chasing during this episode, or in acting overall; they become couch potatoes at the Talosians' behest. So even though we sometimes might hope to learn about performance from chase scenes, this episode simply does not deliver.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Captain Tracy]

Personally, I'm more curious why Kirk picked McCoy, Scotty, and Uhura to beam down with him to negotiate dilithium mining rights with the Halkans in "Mirror, Mirror." (Although that's equally extraneous to the story Jerome Bixby was telling.)

The only 'Why'' we know for sure regarding Landing Party assignment in the story: 'Mirror, Mirror' - based on how the writer set-up the story and how it was played out - is that Mr. Spock absolutely cannot go with Kirk on the Landing Party; otherwise, there would be no onboard I.S.S. Spock for U.S.S. Kirk to be in conflict with - as the I.S.S. Spock would be in the brig on the U.S.S. Enterprise - where anything less than 'Evil Spock vs Good Kirk' would be a weaker story.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

2) warp coasting being a thing (but it is not)

Incorrect. In TNG, it is most definitely a thing.

Although the Ent-D was not designed to perform coasting at warp, she was able to do for about two minutes after her nacelles were field-saturated, in "Force of Nature."

The warp sustainer* on the class VIII probe that K'Ehleyr was travelling in in "The Emissary" held the probe at warp nine for hours.

* - Yes, I'm aware that warp sustainers are non-canonical, but they were clearly intended. A line mentioning "torpedo sustainer engines" was scripted in the final draft of "Half a Life," but it didn't make it into the episode. They are described in the TNG tech manual.

The TNG tech manual also describes how, when the Ent-D saucer is separated at warp, the warp field around the saucer will take about two minutes to decay and return the saucer to sublight, under the control of the impulse engine driver coil segments. We know that the saucer must have had some such ability, because it made it to Farpoint Station without the warp drive.

For all we know, either 23rd century Starfleet shuttlecraft have something similar to sustainers that is sometimes colloquially referred to as "coasting," or they truly coast using any of the above techniques, or something similar, and the craft is specifically engineered, perhaps benefiting from its small size, to be able to maintain its warp field for much longer than just a few minutes.

Rather, ergo, we know the shuttle must have some such ability, just as we know the Ent-D saucer must, because we witnessed them both crossing distances too vast, in too brief a time for purely sublight craft.

 

[Timo]

Incorrect. In TNG, it is most definitely a thing.

Although the Ent-D was not designed to perform coasting at warp, she was able to do for about two minutes after her nacelles were field-saturated, in "Force of Nature."

And this is analogous to coasting after engines run out of fuel, how?

The warp sustainer* on the class VIII probe that K'Ehleyr was travelling in in "The Emissary" held the probe at warp nine for hours.

As you admit, no "sustainer" was ever mentioned in connection with this probe or any other. On screen, probes and torps simply are warp-capable, despite swimming out of assorted tubes at very low sublight speed. Trying to shoehorn the backstage sustainer concept into this evidence is not going to work if any sort of consistency is to be sought.

The TNG tech manual also describes how, when the Ent-D saucer is separated at warp, the warp field around the saucer will take about two minutes to decay and return the saucer to sublight, under the control of the impulse engine driver coil segments. We know that the saucer must have had some such ability, because it made it to Farpoint Station without the warp drive.

Or then the saucer had a warp engine. Which it sports in "Arsenal of Freedom" where LaForge separates it at sublight and then orders it to proceed to a starbase in another star system. If a "sustainer" were involved, LaForge had no excuse not to separate at warp instead.

For all we know, either 23rd century Starfleet shuttlecraft have something similar to sustainers that is sometimes colloquially referred to as "coasting," or they truly coast using any of the above techniques, or something similar, and the craft is specifically engineered, perhaps benefiting from its small size, to be able to maintain its warp field for much longer than just a few minutes.

Certainly the starfield outside never stops zooming past, in the nicely augmented visuals of TOS-R. Those colorful dots move at the same speed wrt the speeding Enterprise, the speeding shuttle and the coasting shuttle all.

This happens at all speeds and all instances in TOS and TOS-R, though. Spock could be at high warp, low warp or at impulse, for the total lack of references after he "warps out".

Rather, ergo, we know the shuttle must have some such ability, just as we know the Ent-D saucer must, because we witnessed them both crossing distances too vast, in too brief a time for purely sublight craft.

Using standard warp engines (only with "ion engine power"!) should let the shuttles do what we see them do, such as move at basically explicit warp in "Metamorphosis" (since a creature at warp "matches" their speed). They never achieve interstellar travel on their own, though; anomalious assistance allows for a single instance in "The Galileo Seven".

The saucer having standard warp engines is similarly the simplest solution, in absence of contrary statements. In the sole non-trivial bit, those just get knocked out as part of the process where our heroes sabotage Data's attempt to commandeer the ship in "Brothers"...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[CorporalCaptain]

The saucer having standard warp engines is similarly the simplest solution

No. La Forge knew it would take years for the saucer to get to Starbase, unless a tug or other crafted was dispatched to intercept them, but even such a long voyage would be preferable than hanging around and getting annihilated.

Trying to shoehorn the backstage sustainer concept into this evidence is not going to work if any sort of consistency is to be sought.

Wrong.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Remember guys, we're just having fun here. When a facet of warp field technology or physics is in dispute, nobody can really be right. Bring forth the Lirpa!

 

[Timo]

No. La Forge knew it would take years for the saucer to get to Starbase, unless a tug or other crafted was dispatched to intercept them, but even such a long voyage would be preferable than hanging around and getting annihilated.

Then he should be tortured to death (in a fun and friendly way, of course - Lirpas are fine). After all, it was within his powers to give the saucer a warp boost, and he deliberately did not.

No, it never was the idea that it would take years for the saucer to get to safety. It was already in safety, in a spot where LaForge determined it was safe to stop and discuss separation and starbases. And calling for help from Starfleet would not involve timespans of years - the E-D had responded to the Drake sooner than that already.

The only logic of sending the saucer to a sublight journey would be to get that annoying Logan off LaForge's back. And since he'd realize what LaForge was doing, he'd certainly object in terms of "this makes no sense at sublight".

It really is two counts of independent saucer warp "sustained" or intended to be sustained forever, one count of saucer falling out of warp, and zero mention of lack of warp engines aboard, but also zero mention of presence of said.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[CorporalCaptain]

After all, it was within his powers to give the saucer a warp boost, and he deliberately did not.

You don't know that. It was the same VFX as in "Encounter at Farpoint," so he definitely could have given the saucer a warp boost.

 

[Timo]

...That VFX shows impulse stars, FWIW, during the critical moment. In both cases - perhaps Picard heeded Data's warnings and indeed hit the brakes before separating in "Farpoint"?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[CorporalCaptain]

No. And I think that at least for the time being we've extracted whatever value there is from bringing in TNG to flesh out what the in-universe tech is capable of.

 

[Timo]

Might well be. Perhaps a look into DIS instead?

No, really, Trek nowadays is rather intensely about retreading TOS: DIS engaged in it as a primary pursuit, LDS derives much of its humor from putting TOS in TNG context, and SNW is apparently gonna be all about it. Perhaps this topic, and several others, will finally get new relevant data and ideas after a drought of decades, or half a century even.

"Relevant" of course being in the eye of the beholder.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[blssdwlf]

Oh I see where you are having a problem. You assume that the shuttle must be faster in order to catch up and then maintain this minimal gap.

Which is necessary, yes.

After the shuttle stalls, the starship continues at her speed (whether maximum warp or something else, we aren't told). Spock and McCoy exchange a few words, Spock ponders, and then enters the program that stops the ship. There's no way the stalled shuttle could cover even this extra distance in two hours or even two weeks, other than

Just because the engines stall on the shuttle doesn't preclude it from coasting the rest of the way at the same speed it was already at (which is what it does in the episode). In fact, that is what they end up doing, "we coast".

The shuttlecraft is fast enough to stay within sensor range of the Enterprise during the warp pursuit until the shuttle runs out of fuel and coasts where Spock makes the decision to stop and let the coasting shuttle catch up. The shuttle could never catch up at Enterprise's speed according to Hansen but it isn't left so far behind that the shuttle is more than 2 hours trailing the Enterprise (the shuttle's remaining oxygen supply.) That has to be consistent of how shuttles operate for the characters in the episode or the illusion falls apart.

Another episode we can debate on is "The Ultimate Computer". When M-5 brings the Enterprise to Warp 4, Kirk orders Scotty to "reverse engines, slow us down" and Scotty responds that "Reverse thrusts will not engage" which tells us that turning off the warp engines isn't how a ship slows down in warp in TOS (assuming the problem isn't a runaway M/AM system).

 

[Timo]

Just because the engines stall on the shuttle doesn't preclude it from coasting the rest of the way at the same speed it was already at (which is what it does in the episode). In fact, that is what they end up doing, "we coast".

Which works fine if the "chase" is at sublight. Because sublight coasting is definitely a thing ITRW and generally is a thing in Trek, too - and because only at sublight would be the distance covered during the action be so insignificant as to be manageable by things like transporters and tractor beams without Spock needing to do a U-turn and spend time backtracking his course.

....it isn't left so far behind that the shuttle is more than 2 hours trailing the Enterprise (the shuttle's remaining oxygen supply.)

No such thing is stated. The shuttle might be trailing the starship by several years for all we know; nobody ever claims its coasting would play any role in the survival of Kirk and his fake companion.

That has to be consistent of how shuttles operate for the characters in the episode or the illusion falls apart.

And since it isn't, the illusion falls apart. And... Nothing happens. Because, in this adventure, the heroes are blind to illusions falling apart. A shuttle behaving out of the ordinary, Spock behaving out of the ordinary... The reaction is the same, of going with the flow, waiting and seeing, and then waiting some more and seeing some more. The heroes are asleep at the wheel throughout this one (a not-so-subtle commentary on televised entertainment?).

Another episode we can debate on is "The Ultimate Computer". When M-5 brings the Enterprise to Warp 4, Kirk orders Scotty to "reverse engines, slow us down" and Scotty responds that "Reverse thrusts will not engage" which tells us that turning off the warp engines isn't how a ship slows down in warp in TOS (assuming the problem isn't a runaway M/AM system).

Good point. But this isn't an attempt by Kirk to slow down as such. It's an attempt by Kirk to override M-5, which is controlling the warp drive and doing evil things with it. Reversing the engines might be an attempt to do harm to them, since nothing else works.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[blssdwlf]

Which works fine if the "chase" is at sublight. Because sublight coasting is definitely a thing ITRW and generally is a thing in Trek, too - and because only at sublight would be the distance covered during the action be so insignificant as to be manageable by things like transporters and tractor beams without Spock needing to do a U-turn and spend time backtracking his course.

That is so weird you think that since the episode shows the shuttlecraft is fast enough to stay within sensor range of the Enterprise during the warp pursuit until the shuttle runs out of fuel and coasts where Spock makes the decision to stop and let the coasting shuttle catch up. The shuttle could never catch up at Enterprise's speed according to Hansen but it isn't left so far behind that the shuttle is more than 2 hours trailing the Enterprise (the shuttle's remaining oxygen supply.) That has to be consistent of how shuttles operate for the characters in the episode or the illusion falls apart.

No such thing is stated. The shuttle might be trailing the starship by several years for all we know; nobody ever claims its coasting would play any role in the survival of Kirk and his fake companion.

Kirk states they have 2 hours of oxygen left but it is easy to miss if you aren't paying attention. That puts an upper limit on how much the shuttle is trailing the max warp Enterprise while coasting.

Good point. But this isn't an attempt by Kirk to slow down as such.

KIRK: Scotty, reverse engines. Slow us down.

You and I have a very different way of interpreting dialogue

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Uhura as communications officer (the closest they may have to an onboard diplomat besides Kirk and Spock)?

I can't say I've ever seen anything in TOS that makes me think Uhura has any expertise in diplomacy.

Communications, of course. Electronics, yes. (Spock trusted her to make a delicate repair in one episode or another, although I'm blanking on which ep it was right now.) Linguistics, maybe. (That seems to be more Kelvin's Uhura's thing, frankly. TOS/Prime Uhura seems to approach communications more from the engineering side.) She can even take over the helm or navigation in a pinch. But diplomacy? Nope.

Maybe she was just making a record of the meeting, the way they often had Yeomans do during the first season.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

When I read the post suggesting that maybe Uhura was there to practice some sort of diplomacy, I thought it could have been interesting if the (non-Mirror) landing party had been in dress uniform. Maybe Uhura could have worn Areel Shaw's.

 

[MAGolding]

That is so weird you think that since the episode shows the shuttlecraft is fast enough to stay within sensor range of the Enterprise during the warp pursuit until the shuttle runs out of fuel and coasts where Spock makes the decision to stop and let the coasting shuttle catch up. The shuttle could never catch up at Enterprise's speed according to Hansen but it isn't left so far behind that the shuttle is more than 2 hours trailing the Enterprise (the shuttle's remaining oxygen supply.) That has to be consistent of how shuttles operate for the characters in the episode or the illusion falls apart.



Kirk states they have 2 hours of oxygen left but it is easy to miss if you aren't paying attention. That puts an upper limit on how much the shuttle is trailing the max warp Enterprise while coasting.



KIRK: Scotty, reverse engines. Slow us down.

You and I have a very different way of interpreting dialogue

What you fail to realize is that nobody can tell if any specific event in "The Menagerie" is real or illusion. Every event in "The Menagerie" which is asaid to be an illusion shold be an illusion - but maybe claiming those events are illusions is part of an illusion. And maybe all the events not stated to be illusions are real. And maybe all the events not stated to be illusions are actually also illusions and nothing seen in "The Menagerie" is real. Or maybe some of the events not stated to be illusins are real and some of them are also illusions, and if so, which are which?

I once wrote a script in whch a galactiic "know it all" character told the "true" story behind "The Cage" and WOK, SFS, abd TVH, explaining the many, many problems with the TOS movies. But I think I wrote a scene where they admitted that they were not totally certain whether all the events really happened as they say Perhaps some or all of that story was an illusion created by the Talosians. Perhaps their entire life was really an illusion created by the Talosians.

You cannot be certain that any events in "The Meneagerie" actually happpened in the ficitional universe of Star Trek.

And in my story I had the character explain that whenever somone realizes that the account of what happened in WOK,SFS, and TVH is impossbile, the Talosian agents in the Federation make them forget noticing that, by giving them the illusion that they never realized that but something else had happened instead.

And even without Talosians making people forget duscreoabcues a vivid illusion might make them very slow to doubt their seneses and realize they are experiencing impossible events.

I remember I once woke up from a dream involving my trip to the UK on an ocean liner, and it took me some time to remember that I never went to the UK.

And it took me some time after waking up from another dream for me to remember that the ancient Roman Empire didn't have movies, tv, or a space program.

 

[blssdwlf]

What you fail to realize is that nobody can tell if any specific event in "The Menagerie" is real or illusion. Every event in "The Menagerie" which is asaid to be an illusion shold be an illusion - but maybe claiming those events are illusions is part of an illusion. And maybe all the events not stated to be illusions are real. And maybe all the events not stated to be illusions are actually also real and nothing seen in "The Menagerie" is real. Or maybe some of the events not stated to be illusins are real and some of them are also illusions, and if so, which are which?

I once wrote a script in whch a galactiic "know it all" character told the "true" story behind "The Cage" and WOK, SFS, abd TVH, explaining the many, many problems with the TOS movies. But I think I wrote a scene where they admitted that they were not totally certain whether all the events really happened as they say Perhaps some or all of that story was an illusion created by the Talosians. Perhaps their entire life was really an illusion created by the Talosians.

You cannot be certain that any events in "The Meneagerie" actually happpened in the ficitional universe of Star Trek.

And in my story I had the character explain that whenever somone realizes that the account of what happened in WOK,SFS, and TVH is impossbile, the Talosian agents in the Federation make them forget noticing that, by giving them the illusion that they never realized that but something else had happened instead.

And even without Talosians making people forget duscreoabcues a vivid illusion might make them very slow to doubt their seneses and realize they are experiencing impossible events.

I remember I once woke up from a dream involving my trip to the UK on an ocean liner, and it took me some time to remember that I never went to the UK.

And it took me some time after waking up from another dream for me to remember that the ancient Roman Empire didn't have movies, tv, or a space program.

I do realize that you are using the "illusion" excuse in an attempt to muddy and invalidate the details of the episode. But you haven't gone far enough. The "illusion" really should apply to the entire Star Trek series. It would be more logical for you to argue that Spock, Pike, etc never left Talos in "The Cage" episode. That was where the first "illusion" began and over the years of illusion torture Spock finally fell to the Talosians and all the rest of the TOS series is really his illusion. That way, none of it is real. Or maybe some of it? Pike in their reality aged and died from heart failure after one too many tortures and Spock was broken because of it? The rest of the crew were tricked into mating and giving birth to a new generation that grew up in their own illusions known as TNG, etc. Other races that became captured were added to the illusions. Truly, I think you are missing out in detailing a much more potent long arc "illusion" known as Star Trek. Is it dark? Depends on how much you want to muddy the episode...

Using the "illusion" excuse: You cannot be certain that any events in any episodes actually happened in the fictional universes of Star Trek.

I have an illusion, and you have an illusion. May you find your way as pleasant.