Question: SE02ep09: Metamorphosis

[PCz911]

Some great ideas here.

I always just figured that was part of what shuttlecraft did. With a lot of space to patrol, they were sent out on mini-missions here and there. We know they are fast enough to make a decent rendezvous with the mother ship instead of having to be picked up ("The Menagerie" as well as this episode).

What was always harder to understand was the top-heavy personnel load on the shuttle flight. Surely there are experienced greenshirt lieutenants on Enterprise who could handle this transport duty, but they embark CO and XO both? I suppose it's possible that they were required at some kind of high-level briefing or meeting, but Starfleet seems to be able to handle that thing pretty well with secure communications. If it was protocol related, the CO should be enough, sending the second-in-command doesn't get you extra points.

Back in the sailing navy days when ship's boats were dispatched on independent missions (sometimes quite long distances), they were usually under a midshipman.

I was just at the local interpretive center and they had a small whaling boat. It held about as many folks as the shuttle (but had no shelter or sail, it was rowed) and I was shocked to see that they would be away from the mother ship for up to a week. That would have really sucked. Ugh! So, your extrapolation makes a lot of sense to me

 

[Captain Tracy]

Shuttles in TOS appear to be only limited by fuel and life support which would limit their range.

From a writer's point of view, this limitation becomes a powerful dramatic device in telling Star Trek stories.

When characters are attempting to overcome obstacles to meet their goal, even the knowledge of the limitation or threat that the limitation could be reached, heightens to tension of the conflict; all without having to play-out reaching the limit every time we want to increase the peril the character is facing.

The revolver only has 6 bullets [limit]; but, there are 7 assailants.

The key to the cell is hanging on the wall just 3' across from the bars of the prisoners' cell; but, his arm only can stretch out 2.75' [limit].

The alternately-fueled shuttlecraft will only generate enough thrust to lift 20,000 pounds to effect an escape [limit]; but, the total load with all personell is 20,500 pounds.

The bank robbers are demanding the NYC Transit Police clear all the subway train-lines all the way out to Coney Island within the next hour [limit]; or, the first hostage gets it; but, it takes at least hours to clear the lines.

Just as we were discussing creating that regulation [limit] which prohibits starship Captains from exposing Federation Representatives like Ferris and/or their mission to hazards which could reasonable be foreseen to potentially jeopardize them and/or their mission for the sole purpose of honestly justifying putting those crewman in the shuttlecraft, versus simply flying the ship up closer to investigate Murasaki-312 in order to eliminate holes in the story, by limiting character options;

Or,

With the '4 hour No Fly Zone' [limit] around EC III during peace talks for armed spacecraft for the dual purpose of honestly justifying putting those crewman in the shuttlecraft, and, honestly justifying pushing the Enterprise 4 hours distant from the rescue point as time runs out, in order to eliminate holes in the story, by limiting character options;

Limitations can be used by writers as two-way attacking 'story-pawns' - either to,

a: Create justification;

and/or,

b: To increase the jeopardy and heighten the tension within a story;

and thereby, create a tighter story with more interest, and, more heroic characters - If, they can overcome the basic conflict of the story - with the writer's use of added limitations.

 

[J.T.B.]

I was just at the local interpretive center and they had a small whaling boat. It held about as many folks as the shuttle (but had no shelter or sail, it was rowed) and I was shocked to see that they would be away from the mother ship for up to a week. That would have really sucked. Ugh! So, your extrapolation makes a lot of sense to me

The Royal Navy really went to the extremes of small boat work for anti-slavery patrols in the early-to-mid-1800s. A midshipman or a mate (now called a sub-lieutenant) and a handful of seamen in an open boat would patrol the coast for as long as six weeks, days of sailing away from their mother ship. They would top off their fresh water from rivers or creeks and fish or hunt game to extend their provisions. It was really dangerous, too, stopping a slaver vessel that didn't want to be inspected.

 

[Timo]

Assuming Spock is not the illusion, then he tells Pike (and us) that it is a 6 day trip at maximum warp. So the Enterprise isn't going slow to let the shuttle catch up.

That's a very bad assumption, though - because from the (arguably falsified) viewpoints of everybody involved, very much including the audience, the trip obviously doesn't take six days at maximum warp. Rather, we see our heroes stare at a viewscreen for about a day at the very most. I mean, there isn't more of the footage than that anyway, and it would be pretty absurd for the heroes to watch reruns in slo-mo.

Either Spock is not for real (and he does lie and cheat a lot in this episode), or then the travel isn't. And odds are that neither is, and that pretty much nothing about the adventure happened the way we saw it.

Since the mothership didn't get rid of the pursuit by speeding up, and Kirk didn't catch the ship despite going all out, then if we assume the engine performances are being applied realistically rather than under influence, we must assume the most incredible of coincidences: that the shuttle is slghtly faster than the starship and thus almost catches up, but that its range is exactly short enough to stall it a very short distance from the starship.

Chases in general don't work that way ITRW. A and B virtually never have the same speed, and either A speeds ahead and B gives up the pursuit, or B catches up and A gives up the flight. If fuel exhaustion decides the chase, then a rather extreme separation is involved. Yet here Kirk almost does a fender-bender, being within range of Spock's tractor beam when starting to coast. (Heck, basically we establish a sublight Enterprise there and then!)

Also, Spock has preprogrammed the scenario where he grabs Kirk in his tractor beam and brings him aboard. Letting Kirk catch up is Spock's demonstrated intent, or at least one of those.

Or then none of it really happened, because none of it makes any real sense.

Shuttles in TOS appear to be only limited by fuel and life support which would limit their range. Could they make an interstellar journey? Maybe trips between nearby star systems while traveling at a fuel economical speed But it seems that they ran out of fuel a day into the chase at maximum warp. The court-martial seems to last the remaining 4 or 5 days of the trip.

Which makes no sense unless we assume the audience is duped into misinterpreting the passage of time, too. And if we assume that, the chase ceases to be a datapoint.

We can interpret "The Menagerie" in many ways, and none of them truly flatter the shuttlecraft. But the incoherent plot defies interpretation in conventional terms: everything, from hero utterances to hardware hiccups, boils down to Talosians abilities and motivations, and we learn nothing real of anything else. (Not that we'd learn anything real of the Talosians here, either.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[blssdwlf]

That's a very bad assumption, though - because from the (arguably falsified) viewpoints of everybody involved, very much including the audience, the trip obviously doesn't take six days at maximum warp. Rather, we see our heroes stare at a viewscreen for about a day at the very most. I mean, there isn't more of the footage than that anyway, and it would be pretty absurd for the heroes to watch reruns in slo-mo.

Either Spock is not for real (and he does lie and cheat a lot in this episode), or then the travel isn't. And odds are that neither is, and that pretty much nothing about the adventure happened the way we saw it.

No worse than assuming that our heroes are staring at a viewscreen for no longer than a day.

There is no reason for Spock to lie to to Pike and the episode states what is true and what is imagined (Mendez). We know at least 1 day has passed as Kirk recounts the events of 24 hours. We also know that the Talosian's video feed would stop when Pike tired out and if Pike can't last more than a few "scenes" of his past then this could be strung out to several days of watching.

Otherwise, the crew never left Talos IV all those years ago and this has all been an illusion for Spock

Since the mothership didn't get rid of the pursuit by speeding up, and Kirk didn't catch the ship despite going all out, then if we assume the engine performances are being applied realistically rather than under influence, we must assume the most incredible of coincidences: that the shuttle is slghtly faster than the starship and thus almost catches up, but that its range is exactly short enough to stall it a very short distance from the starship.

Chases in general don't work that way ITRW. A and B virtually never have the same speed, and either A speeds ahead and B gives up the pursuit, or B catches up and A gives up the flight. If fuel exhaustion decides the chase, then a rather extreme separation is involved. Yet here Kirk almost does a fender-bender, being within range of Spock's tractor beam when starting to coast.

You ITRW analogy is a bit flawed if you can't accept A and B as capable of the same speed. You ever watch a NASCAR race or a race between cars of the same performance?

As depicted in the episode, Enterprise warps out of orbit on her 6 day trip to Talos IV. A little bit later the shuttle is in pursuit. The shuttle is only fast enough to stay within sensor range to follow the Enterprise but cannot overtake and when she runs out of fuel has to coast. They don't come into range of the Enterprise's tractor beam until after the Enterprise comes to a complete stop and some dialog takes place between McCoy and Spock and a cut from the bridge to the transporter room. So there is an unknown amount of time during that cut to allow for the shuttle to finally coast on up to be tractored. If it were a near fender-bender then there wouldn't be time for McCoy and Spock's dialogue

 

[J.T.B.]

^If the shuttle had been traveling outside its know performance parameters, that would have given the Talosians' game away. I think we can safely assume that almost catching up to the starship was reasonably within its capabilities.

 

[Timo]

There is no reason for Spock to lie to Pike

Or to Kirk, and yet he does. The whole setup is a big lie, for no obvious reason: Pike has been injured for months (or has he?), and nevertheless Kirk's arrival at SB11 is predicated on a (false) summons, so "keeping the secret until Kirk is scheduled to visit SB11" is not a valid motivation for the secrecy.

and the episode states what is true and what is imagined (Mendez).

And most probably lies to the heroes and the audience there. A putative real Mendez would have no reason to behave in the manner shown: he wouldn't pardon Kirk for his crimes, and indeed wouldn't have the authority, as if he were aware of the situation, he himself would be facing the firing squad from the hot end of the phasers.

We know at least 1 day has passed as Kirk recounts the events of 24 hours.

At a point where the bulk of Pike's adventure (the trip from the false SOS to Talos) is already past, and at most a couple of hours remain. And those events appear to include the starbase-side action as well, further eating into how much of the six days might theoretically have passed.

We also know that the Talosian's video feed would stop when Pike tired out and if Pike can't last more than a few "scenes" of his past then this could be strung out to several days of watching.

Which would be inconsistent with how few pauses we witness - but would also cast our heroes in pretty bad light if they can't achieve in a week anything to alleviate their predicament, when they usually bring gods to their knees in just forty-five minutes.

The episode constantly plays fast and loose with time. Right till the bitter end, where Pike seemingly beams down to the planet in a split second after clearing the briefing room doorway! We can't trust our own eyes there, nor can we trust that lying bastard Spock on anything he says. Which is fine and well, since the adventure is all about big lies to begin with. But the spacecraft of the episode specifically are not under the control of our heroes, not even when they think they are. (Witness "Mendez" operating shuttle controls on the supposed pilot's side when there's nobody real on that seat - what crucial buttons was Kirk pushing, unawares?) So we really can't trust the hardware, either.

You ITRW analogy is a bit flawed if you can't accept A and B as capable of the same speed. You ever watch a NASCAR race or a race between cars of the same performance?

That only reinforces the point, for being utterly artificial. Put our heroes or villains in a NASCAR racer on the oval if you must, and then have them chased by the police or the gangsters in their vehicle of choice, and the artificial performance equality immediately goes away.

Chases can still take forever and then some for reasons unrelated to performance. Often, the pursuer doesn't really want to catch up, or can't do anything much when catching up. The fleeing party might be useless as a plow to remove obstacles to the application of full propulsion, too, meaning both parties trundle ahead at a speed unrelated to how fast they can go. But here neither approach would seem to work, and we can only assume Spock wants to get caught. I mean, he has that scenario programmed on a datacard!

As depicted in the episode, Enterprise warps out of orbit on her 6 day trip to Talos IV. A little bit later the shuttle is in pursuit. The shuttle is only fast enough to stay within sensor range to follow the Enterprise but cannot overtake and when she runs out of fuel has to coast. They don't come into range of the Enterprise's tractor beam until after the Enterprise comes to a complete stop and some dialog takes place between McCoy and Spock and a cut from the bridge to the transporter room. So there is an unknown amount of time during that cut to allow for the shuttle to finally coast on up to be tractored. If it were a near fender-bender then there wouldn't be time for McCoy and Spock's dialogue

Or, in other words, coasting is basically as fast as top speed. Or else there would be no coming to tractor range when there's no catching up previously.

Of course, this is what we see from the porthole, too, there being no change in the state of motion from the coasting. For all we know, the shuttle always moved at sublight only, and never was making any serious headway in reaching the starship. Which is what Hansen and Mendez fully agree on: there never was the slightest hope, and the ship was "pulling ahead fast", making the pursuit utterly futile. Except, as apparently was the plan all along, as a gesture.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Timo]

^If the shuttle had been traveling outside its know performance parameters, that would have given the Talosian's game away. I think we can safely assume that almost catching up to the starship was reasonably within its capabilities.

Only if we assume that all characters lie. Such as Hansen at the helm in this case.

Nothing gives away the Talosian game, since they press with the impossible through and through, presenting imagery that the heroes agree cannot exist in the first place. Kirk eats six impossibilities before the opening credits already, barely shrugging at having missed the subspace scuttlebutt about Pike, when he should be looking for a dangerous conspiracy.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[blssdwlf]

Or to Kirk, and yet he does. The whole setup is a big lie, for no obvious reason: Pike has been injured for months (or has he?), and nevertheless Kirk's arrival at SB11 is predicated on a (false) summons, so "keeping the secret until Kirk is scheduled to visit SB11" is not a valid motivation for the secrecy.

How does your explanation have anything to do with Spock having no reason to lie to Pike?

And most probably lies to the heroes and the audience there. A putative real Mendez would have no reason to behave in the manner shown: he wouldn't pardon Kirk for his crimes, and indeed wouldn't have the authority, as if he were aware of the situation, he himself would be facing the firing squad from the hot end of the phasers.

Isn't this your plothole then? The real Mendez had the authority to suspend the order at the end of the episode. So I'm not sure why you're suggesting that he wouldn't have the authority or behave as he did in the episode.

At a point where the bulk of Pike's adventure (the trip from the false SOS to Talos) is already past, and at most a couple of hours remain. And those events appear to include the starbase-side action as well, further eating into how much of the six days might theoretically have passed.

Which would be inconsistent with how few pauses we witness - but would also cast our heroes in pretty bad light if they can't achieve in a week anything to alleviate their predicament, when they usually bring gods to their knees in just forty-five minutes.

However our heroes do not control the video from Talos so the progress of the trial is dependent on the when and how long the Talosians choose to show them. If it got stretched out several days because Pike passed out after a few minutes then it is consistent with how the episode is presented.

That only reinforces the point, for being utterly artificial. Put our heroes or villains in a NASCAR racer on the oval if you must, and then have them chased by the police or the gangsters in their vehicle of choice, and the artificial performance equality immediately goes away.

Only if you wish that the two cars are not capable of the same performance which you seem to want to cling to as an impossible scenario...

 

[Timo]

How does your explanation have anything to do with Spock having no reason to lie to Pike?

It establishes Spock as a habitual liar who doesn't need a reason.

(Alternately, it establishes Spock as a helpless puppet of the Talosians, just like everybody else is in this episode.)

Isn't this your plothole then? The real Mendez had the authority to suspend the order at the end of the episode. So I'm not sure why you're suggesting that he wouldn't have the authority or behave as he did in the episode.

The real Mendez should shoot himself in the head for having monitored the situation. He has no authority over GO7, nor knowledge of its background or significance. All he knows is that he's a condemned man if he watches Talosian broadcasts.

That said, having monitored the broadcasts, Mendez should first make damn sure that the Enterprise and everybody aboard her cease to be before committing the suicide. This is what GO7 absolutely requires of him. Only a fake would wuss out at this crucial juncture.

However our heroes do not control the video from Talos so the progress of the trial is dependent on the when and how long the Talosians choose to show them. If it got stretched out several days because Pike passed out after a few minutes then it is consistent with how the episode is presented.

We witness a pause, which is a big thing calling for attention. We don't witness several. And the movie is basically already over when Pike creates the need for a recess for the first time.

And the matter of a week being way too long for idle waiting still stands. Unless, of course, the entire crew is duped into thinking that no time passes. Which is a valid conceit, and simply negates all worth of speeds or travel times quoted in this adventure.

Only if you wish that the two cars are not capable of the same performance which you seem to want to cling to as an impossible scenario...

Rigged games are a valid way to explain "The Menagerie" - indeed, basically the only way. The real world isn't rigged, and chases don't involve identical cars, like, ever. Really, if such a thing happened, you should be able to link to the front page news now!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[CorporalCaptain]

^If the shuttle had been traveling outside its know performance parameters, that would have given the Talosian's game away.

It absolutely would have, yes.

I think we can safely assume that almost catching up to the starship was reasonably within its capabilities.

Yep, the Enterprise pulling away notwithstanding. The safety margin was that Kirk was alone in the shuttle, so life support was operating for one, not two. The rest of the safety margin was that part of the plan was the rescue of the shuttle.

 

[cgervasi]

A putative real Mendez would have no reason to behave in the manner shown

This raises the question of why the Talosians had illusory Mendez agree to go at all. They said they wanted enough officers for a hearing as a distraction. But they could have kept Kirk off the ship altogether by having Mendez ordering Kirk not to take a shuttle since the shuttle had no hope of catching up to the Enterprise.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

This raises the question of why the Talosians had illusory Mendez agree to go at all. They said they wanted enough officers for a hearing as a distraction. But they could have kept Kirk off the ship altogether by having Mendez ordering Kirk not to take a shuttle since the shuttle had no hope of catching up to the Enterprise.

Someone with command authority had to be on scene to be able to interview Pike and be sure he wanted to go and wasn't just getting kidnapped.

 

[blssdwlf]

This raises the question of why the Talosians had illusory Mendez agree to go at all. They said they wanted enough officers for a hearing as a distraction. But they could have kept Kirk off the ship altogether by having Mendez ordering Kirk not to take a shuttle since the shuttle had no hope of catching up to the Enterprise.

Having Illusion Mendez go along for the ride was more of a backup plan in case Kirk was able to reach the Enterprise. Spock knew that Kirk wouldn't let the Enterprise get away so by adding an Illusion Mendez would work as a backup plan to force a court-martial with 3 command officers present. Had Kirk went by himself on the shuttle and somehow reach the Enterprise then they would lack the 3rd command officer for the court-martial and Kirk could focus his efforts on stopping the Enterprise from reaching Talos IV...

As for Kirk listening to Mendez ordering him to not pursue the Enterprise... remember Kirk challenged and got Commodore Decker to stop commanding the Enterprise in "The Doomsday Machine" and will ignore orders when it comes to the safety of his ship and crew...

It establishes Spock as a habitual liar who doesn't need a reason.

(Alternately, it establishes Spock as a helpless puppet of the Talosians, just like everybody else is in this episode.)

The real Mendez should shoot himself in the head for having monitored the situation. He has no authority over GO7, nor knowledge of its background or significance. All he knows is that he's a condemned man if he watches Talosian broadcasts.

That said, having monitored the broadcasts, Mendez should first make damn sure that the Enterprise and everybody aboard her cease to be before committing the suicide. This is what GO7 absolutely requires of him. Only a fake would wuss out at this crucial juncture.

Not sure I agree with this more blood-thirsty interpretation of the episode.

 

[MAGolding]

Some of the comments in this thread suggest that some people are a little uncertain about the passage of time in "The Menagerie".

So here I go again.

When Spock (or an illusion of Spock) si with PIke (or an illusion of PIke) near the begining:

SPOCK: Captain Pike, may I remain for a moment? (flash, the others leave) You know why I've come, Captain. It's only six days away at maximum warp and I have it well-planned. (flash, flash) I have never disobeyed your orders before, Captain, but this time I must. (flash, flash) I know. I know it is treachery and it's mutiny. but I must do this. (flash, flash) I have no choice. (flash, flash)

So according to that possibly false statement by Spock (or an illusion of Spock), the minimum travel time from Starbase 11 (or an illusion of Starbase 11) to Talos IV (or an illusion of TAlos IV) is 6 days, and that at maximum warp.

Later the Enterprise apparently warps out of orbit around Starbase 11 and apparently heads for Talos IV. And later, aboard the real or illusionary shuttlecraft:

MENDEZ: Pulling ahead of us fast. Fuel is down to sixty three point three. If we turn back now, we've just got barely enough to get us back to the base.

On the bridge, later (?):

SPOCK: Stop. How long before shuttlecraft's fuel supply forces return to starbase?
COMPUTER: Computed. Shuttlecraft is already past point of safe return.

Some time later, after Kirk apparently comes aboard the apparent Enterprise:

Captain's log, stardate 3012.4. Despite our best efforts to disengage computers, the Enterprise is still locked on a heading for the mysterious planet Talos Four. Meanwhile, as required by Starfleet General Orders, a preliminary hearing on Lieutenant Commander Spock is being convened. And in all the years of my service, this is the most painful moment I've ever faced.

Spock requests immediate court martial, since Kirk, Mendz, and PIke are enough command officers for a court martial board. So sometime later:

Captain's log, stardate 3012.6. General Court-Martial convened. Mister Spock has again waived counsel and has entered a plea of guilty.

Later, meendez declares the court in recess. And the first part of the episode ends.

http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/16.htm

"The Menagerie Part 2" begins with:

Personal log, stardate 3013.1. I find it hard to believe the events of the past twenty four hours or the plea of Mister Spock standing general court-martial.

Tha tis followed by a recap of the events in "The Menagerie Part 1", and is followed by a shot of the hearing room and:

KIRK [OC]: The court-martial of Mister Spock has been convened in closed session. Despite all we can do, images continue to be transmitted to us from Talos Four.

:

I believe that this is a direct continuation of Kirk's personal log on stardate 3013.1, and that this scene thus begins on 3013.1.

So the scene which begins with this voice over by Kirk should begin on stardate 3013.1, which should be about 24 hours or less since the beginning of the events which Kirk finds it hard to believe.

And I suppose that when Kirk mentions "the events of the past twenty four hours" he is rounding a bit and the time span could be between about 22 hours and about 26 hours.

When in the story did the events which Kirk finds it hard to believe start?

1) I think that the events which Kirk finds it hard to believe probably started before the first scene, at the time when a message calling them to Starbase 11 was reported to be received.

2) Or possibly some people might think that the events which Kirk finds it hard to believe started when the Enterprise apparently left orbit around Starbase 11.

3) Or possibly some people might think that the events which Kirk finds it hard to believe started when Kirk apparenlty reached the Enterprise..

5) Or possibly some people might think that the events which Kirk finds it hard to believe started at Spock's preliminary hear on stardate 3012.4.

6) Or possibly some people might think that the events which Kirk finds it hard to believe started at Spock's court martial on stardate 3012.6.

In # 5, there would be about 22 to 26 hours in about 0.7 stardate units from 3012.4 to 3013.1, at a rate of about 31.4 to 37.14 hours per stardate unit.

in # 6, there would be about 22 to 26 hours in about 0.5 stardate units from 3012.6 to 3013.1, at a rate of about 44 to 52 hours per stardate unit.

And if the 24 hours began earlier in the story, there would be few hours per stardate unit.

After the Talosians show more images of Pike's experiences on Talos IV, they stop.

MENDEZ: What is it? Why have they stopped the images?
SPOCK: Because they know that Captain Pike is fatigued. We can reconvene later.

After an unspecified interval:

Personal log, stardate 3013.2. Reconvening court-martial of Mister Spock and the strangest trial evidence ever heard aboard a starship. From the mysterious planet now only one hour ahead of us, the story of Captain Pike's imprisonment there.

http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/16b.htm

Obviously,If Kirk said "one hour ahead of us" when the planet was between 0.5 and 2.0 hours away, the estimated time of arrival would be stardate 3013.2 plus 0.5 to 2.0 hours times the ratio of hours to stardates. So the stardate of arrival at Talos IV would be between about 3013.2096 and stardate 3013.2318.

Of course if Kirk's 24 hours began earlier in the story than stardate 3012.4 the ratio of hurs to stardate units would be smaller and there would be a larger fraction of a stardate unit per hour.

So the voyage to Talos IV is said to take 6 days at maximum warp, and the dated part of the voyage seems to take only 0.8 stardate units and ends about an hour away from Talos IV.

Assuming that the total voyage was 5 to 7 Earth days and took 0.8 to 1.2 stardate units, there would be 4.16666 to 8.75 Earth days, or 99.999 to 210 Earth hours, per stardate unit.

In that case the previousl "24 hours" before stardate 3013.1, if they were 22 to 26 hours, would begin 0.104 to 0.26 stardate units earlier, and thus between stardate 3012.84 and 3012.996. That would be after both 3012.4 and 3012.6, which would mean that Kirk wasnot shocked by events between those stardates, but by events after stardate 3012.6. And presumably hours after the first testimony session in the court martial, which began on 3012.6, but should have lasted just 5 to 15 minutes based on what was seen in the episode.

I note that on stardate 3013.1 Kirk said:

Personal log, stardate 3013.1. I find it hard to believe the events of the past twenty four hours or the plea of Mister Spock standing general court-martial.

And Kirk does not state that the events of the last 24 hours began about 24 hours earlier, merely that they began some time during the last 24 hours. Or the 24 hours could have begun with earlier events in the story before stardate 3012.4. Either would mean that stardate 3012.6,and even stardate 3012.4, would have been a lot less than 24 hours before. stardate 3013.1. Thus thhere could have been fewer hours during the intervals between the stated stardates, and the ratio of hours to stardates calculated from the intervals between the stated stardateswas actually an upper limit.

If a ratio of 31.4 to 52 hours per stardate unit is the upper limit, the real ratio of hours to stardate units could be no higher, and culd be much lower, than 31.4 to 52 hours per stardate unit. Assuming that the voyage from Starbase II to Talos IV takes 6 earth days requires that there should be about 99.9999 to 210 hours per stardate unit.

So it seems impossible for the voyage to take the stated "6 days at maximum warp".

Possible explanations are:

1) Time passes much slower on a dtsrship at warp (Pike did set the "time warp drive" at factor 7 during the first voyage to Talos IV). Thus.6 days could have passed on Starbase 11, and the changing stardates there would be based on that, and only 1 day could have passed on the Enterprise, and the stardates on the Enterprise, based on the passage of time aboard, were more consistent with one day passing on the ship.

2) It took Kirk about 1 day to reach the Enterprise. Kirk spent the rest of that day and most of the next 4 days trying to regain control of the ship. The hearing and then the courtmartial began late on the 5th day, and reconvened on the 6th day when the Enterprise was about to reach Talos IV. Thi requires that the events which Kirk couldn't believe did not include Spock hijacting the ship, but instead began with the revelaitons in Spock's courtmartial, or even possibly some events which happened offscreen after the courtmartial recessed (possibly an attempt by enginnering which Kirk thought was certain to regain control while Spock was distracted by the courtmartial turned out to be a failure. after the ocurtmartial recessed)

3) Possibly everyone could look up the coordinates of Talos IV and how far it was from Starbase 11 and thus calculate how long - 6 days - it would take to reach Talos IV from Starbase 11. So Spock had to tell PIke the voyage would take 6 days.

But possibly the scenes on starbase 11 were illusions and they were not on Starbase 11 but were much closer to talos IV. Thus the voyage to Talos IV took only about 1 days.

4) Possibly everyone could look up the coordinates of Talos IV and how far it was from Starbase 11 and thus calculate how long- 6 days - it would take to reach Talos IV from Starbase 11. So Spock had to tell PIke the voyage would take 6 days.

But possibly the Enterprise reaching Talos IV was an illusion and they arrived at someplace else which wa sa lot closer to Starbase 11 than TAlos IV was.

5) Possibly everyone could look up the coordinates of Talos IV and how far it was from Starbase 11 and thus calculate how long - 6 days - it would take to reach Talos IV from Starbase 11. So Spock had to tell PIke the voyage would take 6 days.

But possibly the Enterprise traveled from a place which was not Starbase 11 to a place which was not Talos IV and it was only an illusion that they were travelling from Starbase 11 to Talos IV.

6) Possibly everyone could look up the coordinates of Talos IV and how far it was from Starbase 11 and thus calculate how long - only 1 day - it would take to reach Talos IV from Starbase 11. But the Talosians gave everyone the illusion that the trip would take 6 days, even at maximum warp, so Kirk would think that he had more time to regain control than he actually did.

7) Posssibly the trip did take 6 days, but the Talosians pulled a Groundhog Day on everyone, giving everyone the illusion that they were experiencing the first day of Spock's court martial over and over again until the 6th day when they experienced the 2nd day of Spock's court martial until reaching Talos IV or some other destination.

And maybe the Talosians varied the plot on the different repeats of the first day of Spock's court martial.

I note that at the beginning of Spock's court martial:

Captain's log, stardate 3012.6. General Court-Martial convened. Mister Spock has again waived counsel and has entered a plea of guilty.

MENDEZ: Mister Spock, are you aware in pleading guilty that a further charge involving the death penalty must be held against you should this vessel enter the Talos star group?

But on the second day of Spock's Court martial:

MENDEZ: Guilty, yes or no, Captain? (flash) Yes. I must also vote guilty as charged. And you, Captain?
KIRK: Guilty as charged.

How could they vote on Spock's guilt or innocence if Spock already pleaded guildty? Thus I suspect that this scene from the alleged second day was actually a sequel to a different illusion of the beginning of the court martial, where Spock did not plead guildity at the begining but pleaded innocent instead.

So if so much of the events in "The Menagerie" might be illusions, how can anyone hope to know anything about how fast the shuttlecraft could travel based on the rather contradictory evidence about that in this episode?

 

[blssdwlf]

So if so much of the events in "The Menagerie" might be illusions, how can anyone hope to know anything about how fast the shuttlecraft could travel based on the rather contradictory evidence about that in this episode?

The shuttlecraft is fast enough to stay within range of the Enterprise during the warp pursuit until the shuttle runs out of fuel where Spock makes the decision to stop and let the coasting shuttle catchup. That has to be consistent of how shuttles operate for the characters in the episode or the illusion falls apart. How we stretch out the time doesn't affect the shuttle's performance...

 

[Timo]

The shuttlecraft is fast enough to stay within range of the Enterprise during the warp pursuit until the shuttle runs out of fuel

...But it is not.

We never hear of the shuttle staying within any particular range. Instead we hear it stated that the ship is pulling ahead fast, and then (abortively, alas), that there's not a snowball's chance in Hell for the shuttle to reach the ship.

where Spock makes the decision to stop and let the coasting shuttle catchup.

But this is at best implicit. The shuttle doesn't catch up - after observing the loss of propulsion aboard the craft, Spock simply orders the computer to lock tractor beam. And the ship most certainly does not stop in order to achieve this: moments later, it's specified that this is when the engines reverse and the ship stops.

So, with all this said and done:

That has to be consistent of how shuttles operate for the characters in the episode or the illusion falls apart.

Apparently not. The illusions never fall apart merely because the victims would start disbelieving in them. It's all false, and the heroes can't help but going along with it anyway.

How we stretch out the time doesn't affect the shuttle's performance...

But we can't divine that performance out of evidence that clearly establishes only one thing: that coasting will allow the shuttle to keep up with the starship, remaining within her tractor range.

Which is utter nonsense, and so is the whole chase. And that's as it should be, because t´The Talosians Did It.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[blssdwlf]

We never hear of the shuttle staying within any particular range. Instead we hear it stated that the ship is pulling ahead fast, and then (abortively, alas), that there's not a snowball's chance in Hell for the shuttle to reach the ship.

Your own argument relies on Spock being able to monitor that the shuttle is following them thus the shuttle is still within the Enterprise's sensor range. Also the shuttle is able to track that the Enterprise is pulling away so both are within each other's sensor range.

But this is at best implicit. The shuttle doesn't catch up - after observing the loss of propulsion aboard the craft, Spock simply orders the computer to lock tractor beam. And the ship most certainly does not stop in order to achieve this: moments later, it's specified that this is when the engines reverse and the ship stops.

The computer indicates, "Locked on. Tractor beam ready." The Enterprise then brings herself to a stop to let the shuttle catch up. The tractor at no point in the scene engages onto the shuttle and therefore not within tractor range. We can only assume at some point between the bridge scene and the transporter scene (the cut) that the shuttle is tractor beamed and brought into range for the transporter to bring Kirk aboard.

So, with all this said and done:

The shuttlecraft is fast enough to stay within sensor range of the Enterprise during the warp pursuit until the shuttle runs out of fuel where Spock makes the decision to stop and let the coasting shuttle catch up. The shuttle could never catch up at Enterprise's speed according to Hansen but it isn't left so far behind that the shuttle is more than 2 hours trailing the Enterprise (the shuttle's remaining oxygen supply.) That has to be consistent of how shuttles operate for the characters in the episode or the illusion falls apart.

@Timo - does it bug you that there isn't a gigantic performance difference between shuttles and ships like in TNG and later series? Is that why you're so bugged by this?

 

[Timo]

Your own argument relies on Spock being able to monitor that the shuttle is following them thus the shuttle is still within the Enterprise's sensor range. Also the shuttle is able to track that the Enterprise is pulling away so both are within each other's sensor range.

My argument is that there is no chase.

Spock isn't trying to evade Kirk. And Kirk isn't trying to catch Spock. And that's in terms of how they themselves are thinking, before we even start applying Talosian illusion.

Spock is trying to get caught, as that is explicitly a prepared part of the plan. Kirk is trying to get Spock's attention, by committing suicide. Both get what they want, of course, because it's a rigged game to start with.

As for sensor range, this might well span several days of warp travel for all we care. And sometimes does. We get no indication of the more exacting "visual range" thing here.

The computer indicates, "Locked on. Tractor beam ready." The Enterprise then brings herself to a stop to let the shuttle catch up. The tractor at no point in the scene engages onto the shuttle and therefore not within tractor range. We can only assume at some point between the bridge scene and the transporter scene (the cut) that the shuttle is tractor beamed and brought into range for the transporter to bring Kirk aboard.

If this is for real, then the non-chase was at low sublight all along, so that coasting would not result in a gulf several hours or days wide vis-á-vis a ship that moved ahead at her previous speed for at least half a minute (of witnessed rolling of film - the heroes themselves must have experienced much more of that, even if we assume overlap between scenes, since McCoy has had time to mull over the recent revelation).

So it doesn't work. Not if the shuttle is faster than the ship (in order to first catch up and then maintain this mimimal gap), not if the ship is faster than the shuttle, not with any set of plausible parameters. Which is because it is an illusion, of course - and our heroes don't blink at impossible illusions, either on Talos IV or on SB11 or aboard their respective spacecraft.

Or then warp coasting is a thing. But it really isn't.

@Timo - does it bug you that there isn't a gigantic performance difference between shuttles and ships like in TNG and later series? Is that why you're so bugged by this?

I don't really see any evidence for great performance out of any of the TOS shuttles - heck, here the Picasso couldn't even have gone from SB11 to Talos on her own, but was starved of fuel right after launch. TAS is slightly different, but those shuttles are much bigger, too.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[blssdwlf]

So it doesn't work. Not if the shuttle is faster than the ship (in order to first catch up and then maintain this mimimal gap), not if the ship is faster than the shuttle, not with any set of plausible parameters.

Oh I see where you are having a problem. You assume that the shuttle must be faster in order to catch up and then maintain this minimal gap. The episode doesn't present this scenario though. The episode presents the Enterprise leaving orbit at warp, the shuttle takes off following but stated to be unable to catchup and also falling behind but never having a gap of more than 2 hours (the remaining shuttle oxygen supply). We can take two cars, the chase car being a little slower than the lead car and with them taking off a few minutes apart they can never catch each other. They will start to see the lead car slowly increase the gap. That is how the episode is presented

I don't really see any evidence for great performance out of any of the TOS shuttles - heck, here the Picasso couldn't even have gone from SB11 to Talos on her own, but was starved of fuel right after launch.

The shuttle's performance is pretty great by staying within 2 hours trailing distance of the Enterprise at maximum warp. How it affected her range doesn't matter since it was expected to run out of fuel as Spock was checking on it.