Here's a question. How many of the ship shots were actually done on film? I know that all the ILM stuff was, and I know that it was all composited on tape. However, many of the ship shots, mainly the guest ships of the week look like they were also shot on video, as well as a lot of the later season shots of the four footer. Honestly, if they were going to go back and re-composite the original f/x elements with "fill-in" CGI work here and there, THAT would get me really excited about the project, but I don't know how much of it was actually done on film to begin with.
Question re: Original f/x vs. TOS-R...
- Thread starter Warped9
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Here's a question. How many of the ship shots were actually done on film? I know that all the ILM stuff was, and I know that it was all composited on tape. However, many of the ship shots, mainly the guest ships of the week look like they were also shot on video, as well as a lot of the later season shots of the four footer. Honestly, if they were going to go back and re-composite the original f/x elements with "fill-in" CGI work here and there, THAT would get me really excited about the project, but I don't know how much of it was actually done on film to begin with.
I'm pretty sure that for the first couple of seasons, the miniatures were shot on video, hence the problem in upgrading the episodes to HD; we're talking Pixelation City, kids. Later seasons either started doing them on film or at least higher quality video, someone in the know will have to confirm what happened. Figure in DS9 and Voyager to that mix, and that's a helluva lot of stuff to redo.
Somewhat ironically, that leaves ENT as the next, easiest candidate for a BD release, since it was done in high def from the get-go.
Somewhat ironically, that leaves ENT as the next, easiest candidate for a BD release, since it was done in high def from the get-go.
Totally agree. I point to that orbital shot in Who Mourns for Adonais again, that looks like someone plopped the ship, the hand and the planet randomly.
If all of the original ship passes exist along with the rest of the film, then this would probably be easier than replacing it with CG. But then we're stuck with shots of the 4ft D model too. Do you want that on your conscience?
I'd thought of that and, um. And, um.
...God dammit.
The compositions in TOS are masterful. There are some philistines out there who talk of letterboxing the show by cutting out the top and bottom. Now, I don't object on the basis that I need to see every square millimeter of Star Trek, but I do object to the butchering of beautifully, intelligently framed compositions that the modern hacks in Hollywood don't even recognize for what they are.
Even something as oft-mocked as the Penis Rock Shot. Look at how perfectly the lighting, framing and lines of the shot direct the viewer's eye, while keeping the composition perfectly balanced. Fucking brilliant. Artistic and professional.
http://loyalkng.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/captain-kirk-wtf-to-much-lsd.jpg
LOL, can you say "exaggeration"?
Well, when you start up your studio, you can call them whatever you please to eliminate such confusion, but I assure you, they don't just grab people off the newspaper classifieds and set them down in front of a Maya or Lightwave scene and tell them to figure it out, despite the fact that both jobs have the same title. That would be silly. It's like saying that an engineering professor didn't do a good job because he's a doctor, and "doctor" means "medicine."
Have a look at this real-life job posting for a Layout Artist position at Digital Domain, where you'll see that a Layout Artist "pre-determine
In general, both a cinematographer and a layout artist would have the exact same artistic ability to compose a shot. The only difference would be in the practical application of their craft.
I particularly remember “Mudd‘s Women” having some very nicely composed deep-focus shots.
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Those are some nice examples. What makes them noteworthy to my eyes is that they're really not noteworthy scenes. A transporter room scene, a couple of conference room shots, and a ride in the turbolift with a Vulcanian
. TOS, and Season 1 in particular, are full of these types of shots. It's not just the shot composition, but the use of colored lighting as well. Look at the conference room lighting, with the use of blue gels, and the shadows behind Mudd and his women. It adds depth and detail where in reality there was none. It looks fantastic, and I'm pretty sure those aren't even 1080p screengrabs. TOS really was a revelation when it was remastered, and that was the real benefit of the TOS-R upgrade. Seeing the original live-action footage with such brilliant color was incredible. They weren't shy in those days with using "hyper-real" lighting, unlike a lot of the drap "realistic" lighting used in more modern shows. That's why I suspect that when TNG makes the jump to HD it won't be as eye-opening as TOS was. The color palette and lighting just isn't as bold. It will look good, just not in a "wow I had no idea it could look that good" way.
Even before TOS-R this was something you could appreciate when the series was remastered and then released on dvd---it was wonderful. The Blu-Ray editions enhance that and this has been of more interest to me than the new f/x.
And not just colour (Wow!) and lighting, but set and costume details as well!
...although I'm sure RAMA will be along to chide us for being biased and taken in by something so obviously cheap.
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I had several of the two episode DVDs from the first round of digital remasterings, and while they looked nice, and far better than my VHS off-air recordings, the HD spec allows for a far richer color reproduction, and watching them on blu-ray was a bigger jump than going from those old VHS tapes to the DVD. Of course, I had never watched them on a 46" TV with DTS surround sound either!
No, the two-episode DVD's were not the same as what came later I believe. I saw some of those (2 eps per dvd) and they were nothing special. But afterwords they were remastered and released for airing and also put into the first dvd season sets---Wow!
I never owned the pre TOS-R season sets, but I was pretty sure at the time that they were from the same masters as the two episode DVDs...which is why I didn't buy them. I figured something better was coming down the line. Which is why I was all over the blu-rays when they came out! I could be wrong about that though. Google isn't being particuarly helpful to me on the subject.
EDIT: Nevermind - Google is my friend! Found this review on The Digital Bits of the season sets:http://www.thedigitalbits.com/reviews3/startrektoss1.html. Basically it says that the season sets were from the same masters as the original two episode DVDs (which were from the Sci-Fi channel remastering), but looked slightly better due to improved compression.
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I watched Whom Gods Destroy this weekend - speaking of the color enhancement, I didn't remember that they often had a green spotlight on Marta to enhance her Orion makeup. On the Blu-rays its pretty extreme! She's normally a nice mellow green when she's in shot with another actor, but when she moves into the green spot for closeups, it's like, 100%, 0-255-0 RGB green! Whew!
I've found some of the original effects simply have more energy than the new ones. Fine, they are technically better, but as someone mentioned upthread, the oft-used Enterprise banking shot was exciting and would be run in normal speed or more quickly depending on the needs of the episode.
The Doomsday Machine was a mixture of triumph and "oops" for me. The bank was used for the shot following Decker saying "hard about, give me some distance." It was replaced by a sloooow moving Enterprise beginning to turn away. That sucked the energy right out of the sequence.
The episode also has other issues, like Kirk reacting to what he sees on the auxiliary control screen. In the original episode, the screen powered up and he reacted. In TOS-R, he reacted before the screen powered up, which makes no sense. Also, while the original yellow cartoon phasers looked like ass, the new ones look like someone shining a flashlight on the surface of the DDM. There was no sense of power or energy, and the phasers don't "bounce off" as Sulu claimed. The hull seems to absorb them. I'm also not convinced that the Enterprise would have been towing the Constellation when it was hit by the first beam. Spock never had time to set it in motion. Kirk was saying on board to get the Constellation ready for towing but he never got the chance and never gave the order to activate the tractor beam. And how is the Enterprise "more maneuverable" dragging the dead Constellation around with them? It makes more sense for Spock to see the DDM then move off to lead it away from the defenseless Constellation, which is what I always figured he was doing.
I love the work they did for this episode, but it seems like they were concentrating on improving the visuals without paying any attention to have they fit into the narrative. The original effects, no matter how inferior over time they've become, still paint the proper picture intended. Bob Justman and Norman Spinrad be damned, they obviously weren't watching closely.
The Doomsday Machine was a mixture of triumph and "oops" for me. The bank was used for the shot following Decker saying "hard about, give me some distance." It was replaced by a sloooow moving Enterprise beginning to turn away. That sucked the energy right out of the sequence.
The episode also has other issues, like Kirk reacting to what he sees on the auxiliary control screen. In the original episode, the screen powered up and he reacted. In TOS-R, he reacted before the screen powered up, which makes no sense. Also, while the original yellow cartoon phasers looked like ass, the new ones look like someone shining a flashlight on the surface of the DDM. There was no sense of power or energy, and the phasers don't "bounce off" as Sulu claimed. The hull seems to absorb them. I'm also not convinced that the Enterprise would have been towing the Constellation when it was hit by the first beam. Spock never had time to set it in motion. Kirk was saying on board to get the Constellation ready for towing but he never got the chance and never gave the order to activate the tractor beam. And how is the Enterprise "more maneuverable" dragging the dead Constellation around with them? It makes more sense for Spock to see the DDM then move off to lead it away from the defenseless Constellation, which is what I always figured he was doing.
I love the work they did for this episode, but it seems like they were concentrating on improving the visuals without paying any attention to have they fit into the narrative. The original effects, no matter how inferior over time they've become, still paint the proper picture intended. Bob Justman and Norman Spinrad be damned, they obviously weren't watching closely.
I watched all 3 seasons with the new effects when I first got the BD sets. Now, I'm gradually re-watching favorite episodes with the original effects. Over the weekend, I watched Elaan of Troyius, mostly for the brilliant performances, costumes, sets, and lighting, but along the way I also enjoyed the original effects.
I know some shots in some of the episodes look overly grainy or with poor matting, but everything looked spectacular on Elaan. I didn't think anything was lacking or subpar.
As I've stated before, I appreciate the work the the Okudas their team put into the new effects, especially considering the limited budget and time constraints. I do enjoy many of the new shots, but in the end I think I'm happier with the original effects.
Doug
PS I'm also fine with the original audio, as well.
I know some shots in some of the episodes look overly grainy or with poor matting, but everything looked spectacular on Elaan. I didn't think anything was lacking or subpar.
As I've stated before, I appreciate the work the the Okudas their team put into the new effects, especially considering the limited budget and time constraints. I do enjoy many of the new shots, but in the end I think I'm happier with the original effects.
Doug
PS I'm also fine with the original audio, as well.
I think many of the posts in this thread (ssosmcin's comments on "The Doomsday Machine" two posts above are an excellent example) clearly illustrate the dangers inherent when someone--no matter how well intentioned--comes along after the fact and makes changes to artistic works based on second-guessing what the original artists "really meant" or "would have done if only they had been able to."
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The DDM episode was the biggest disappointment for me, personally, because it was the one episode they should've been able to knock out of the ballpark while at the same time maintaining the look of the show's photography. Instead, what we got was a DDM that looked like a rock, with an energy/blast effect that had no sense of power or heat to it. The maneuvering of the ships was badly done and--as typical on TOS-R--the ships movements convery no feeling of mass. For instance, when the DDM turns off its tractor beam on the Enterprise, which is straining to pull away, you'd expect to see the ship lurch away, not spin around in place.
Why wouldn't the 1701 be able to spin in place? They have engines that can propel them near the speed of light in normal space; and also have engines that can warp space? We're not talking chemically fueled propulsion.
And as for ship movement; are you really trying to claim the wobble of the AMT kit U.S.S. Constellation was somehow done better?
Again, opinions are subjective; but in all honestly, anytine they show an FTL capable craft haveing to bank like its resisting gravity or flying in an atmosphere, I just laugh. Star Fleet ahips must have tech that can cancel inertia and the effects of acceleration. If they didn't the crews would be paste on thwe hull even at impuse speeds and acceleration.
As for the DDM beam effects. I didn't care for the remastered one; but at the same time, I don't think the original was all that great. I'll be honest and say I'm surprised they didn't go with Norman Spirad's original concept for the look of the DDM; because their are PLENTY of comments of "While they were satisfied - not even the effects people really cared for the "Wind Sock dipped in concrete" either - least of all the writer, Norman Spinrad.
Again, I realize people's MMV - but I do think, overall, The Doomsday Machine was some of the best work done by the TOS-R team; beaten only by the armospheric shots in Tomorrow Is Yesyerday.
My biggest dissapointment forom them was the stuff done for The Ultimate Computer; followed by any episode that used the poorly done Romulan/Klingon D-7. I also think that shot for shot and effect for effect, the original model and animation work on Elann of Troyious is head and shoulders above what TOS-R didn to that episode.
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