Question for UK members: tipping?

[JustKate]

According to an article I found on www.Wordorigins.org only about 1/6th of known Old English words have decendants that still survive today - however, the survivors are among the most commonly used words in English, e.g., "be" and "water."

And I believe, Bob, that the official way to describe English is as a language of "borrowings." I mean, we don't steal words - they can stay in their language of origin if they want to - we don't mind. But we kind of...adopt them for our own.

Ooh, and here's an interesting bit that I just found on Wordorigins.org: "Some Americanisms that the British decry are actually originally British expressions that were preserved in the colonies while lost at home (e.g., fall as a synonym for autumn, trash for rubbish, frame-up which was reintroduced to Britain through Hollywood gangster movies, and use of loan as a verb instead of lend)."

Nothing here on going to the bathroom and tipping, though.

And 'Lootenant' instead of 'Leftenant'. Although I'll be damned if I know why we say it that way.

Thor, I looked up lieutentant and its "leftenant" pronunciation in the Online Etymology Dictionary (http://www.etymonline.com/) - here's what it says:
'lieutenant
c.1375, "one who takes the place of another," from O.Fr. lieu tenant "substitute," lit. "placeholder," from lieu "place" + tenant, prp. of tenir "to hold." The notion is of a "substitute" for higher authority. Specific military sense of "officer next in rank to a captain" is from 1578. Pronunciation with lef- is common in Britain, and spellings to reflect it date back to 14c., but the origin of it is mysterious.'

So no help there, I'm afraid.

 

[Chekov's Phaser]

Isn't the Loo part of Lieutenant in America English derived from the German word for Lieutenant: "Leutnant"?

I don't speak German, so I might be totally off there.

 

[JustKate]

^ Well, I don't think so - according to Online Etymology, it's of French origin (Old French, the kind the Normans spoke), which would mean that it's a fairly unusual example of a word in which the American pronunciation is closer to the French pronunciation than the British pronunciation is.

 

[JustKate]

^ Just about all U.S. military ranks (and British military ranks, for that matter) are of Old French origin, according to what I've read. Lots of military terms in general are, thanks to the Normans.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

And damn proud of it sir!

Sign of a healthy language.

I agree! I love all the weird words we have. Although I do feel sorry for anyone trying to learn it as a foreign language!

I guess that's why they say it's one of the hardest languages to learn... and why half the country can barely speak it.

 

[JustKate]

Learning how to spell and pronounce English as a second language would be a nightmare - an absolute nightmare. It's hard enough when you grow up learning, for example, that the pronunciations of though and thought and thorough not only don't have a whole lot to do with the letters used, but also don't have that much to do with each other.

But I agree that all those weird words are fabulous.

 

[Chekov's Phaser]

Sign of a healthy language.

I agree! I love all the weird words we have. Although I do feel sorry for anyone trying to learn it as a foreign language!

I guess that's why they say it's one of the hardest languages to learn... and why half the country can barely speak it.

Yep the English language is a bit like Frankenstein's monster. Built from many different parts and not all that natural.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

Learning how to spell and pronounce English as a second language would be a nightmare - an absolute nightmare. It's hard enough when you grow up learning, for example, that the pronunciations of though and thought and thorought not only don't have a whole lot to do with the letters used, but also don't have that much to do with each other.

But I agree that all those weird words are fabulous.

A favourite of mine is phlegm... why? Why is is spelt like that? Surely flem is good enough.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Yep the English language is a bit like Frankenstein's monster. Built from many different parts and not all that natural.

True, so true! I love this comment!

 

[JustKate]

^^ Yeah! And and why are some spellings simplified but others are not. I mean, we (my part of "we") have simplified plough to plow, but why not bough? Either -ough or -ow are fine with me, but why would one word get (for some of us) an easier spelling while the second doesn't?

 

[Thor Damar]

Yep the English language is a bit like Frankenstein's monster. Built from many different parts and not all that natural.

True, so true! I love this comment!

That's why I love this crazy language of ours, it's one long glorious canon violation!

 

[Miss Chicken]

I am wondering id some English member can answer this question.

I know that the word 'halfpenny' is pronounced HAYP-nee in Britain as it is in Australia (or at least was when we stil had halfpennies). However there is a surname Halfpenny (one of the First Fleet marines had this name). Should the surname be pronounced As Haypnee or should it be Halfpenny.

I have never meant anyone with this surname. I imagine it isn't a very common name.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

I am wondering id some English member can answer this question.

I know that the word 'halfpenny' is pronounced HAYP-nee in Britain as it is in Australia (or at least was when we stil had halfpennies). However there is a surname Halfpenny (one of the First Fleet marines had this name). Should the surname be pronounced As Haypnee or should it be Halfpenny.

I have never meant anyone with this surname. I imagine it isn't a very common name.

It should be pronounced Money-penny... oh wait that's something else.
I have no idea but I'd guess haypnee because half-penny as a name sounds stupid... but since when did that stop stupid names?

 

[captcalhoun]

it's halfpenny. or at least, the actress Jill Halfpenny's name is halfpenny.

it's actually ha'penny. as in half-penny with the 'lf' bit removed like the o in do not for don't et al.

it's thruppeny that's the weird one. (meaning three penny)

 

[Miss Chicken]

it's halfpenny. or at least, the actress Jill Halfpenny's name is halfpenny.

it's actually ha'penny. as in half-penny with the 'lf' bit removed like the o in do not for don't et al.

it's thruppeny that's the weird one. (meaning three penny)

In pre-decimal Australia we had the three-pence which was pronounce thrip-pence and the two pence which was pronounced tuppence.

I clearly remember things that costed tuppence haypnee.

 

[Count Zero]

Sign of a healthy language.

I agree! I love all the weird words we have. Although I do feel sorry for anyone trying to learn it as a foreign language!

I guess that's why they say it's one of the hardest languages to learn... and why half the country can barely speak it.

Actually, I think it's one of the easiest languages to learn. There's very little grammar to take into consideration when building sentences, so it's fairly easy to arrive at a basic communication level.

 

[JustKate]

^ Some of the grammar is easier, yes - fewer cases and all that jazz. But the spelling is awful. And there are so many things for which there are no rules but which nonetheless have a right way and a wrong way - e.g., when to use the definite article and when to use the indefinite article, and if you do use the indefinite article, when you want a and when you want an, and how to handle uncounted nouns, and so on. But in some ways it must be easier. At least we don't have the dative case.

 

[Count Zero]

All languages have those little odditites, so you would have to learn them in any language.
I don't know. I never really had to think about how to build the sentences I want to say in English. It's a whole different thing in French.

 

[JustKate]

I'm just going by the questions we get from ESL students on a grammar board I frequent. Spelling, pronunciation, articles, pronouns and punctuation tend to give them fits, and who can blame them?

I expect what's troublesome depends on what your first language is like, though. And the thing about English is that there are lots of ways to build sentences, which is great, but since there are nonetheless wrong ways to build sentences, this is great only so long as you manage to avoid the wrong/confusing/completely unidiomatic ways. It's always very difficult to explain why several different sentences are fine while another nearly identical one just isn't. Sometimes there is such a thing as too much flexibility.

 

[trampledamage]

English names are hilarious for being pronounced completely differently to how they are spelt. Cholmondley-Feathstonehaugh being the classic example.