Also worth noting in regard to the Miranda class vessels - none of them had to resort to ramming an enemy ship! 
[Not mentioning any sovereign class vessels 
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[Not mentioning any sovereign class vessels ]
Question for Dominion War Space Battle Buffs
- Thread starter c0rnedfr0g
- Start date
A Miranda ramming a ship would be like throwing a rock. A Sovereign ramming a ship would be like throwing a knife.
Well if you play rock, paper, scissors [like a knife]-rocks beats scissors/knife! 
Concur with posters that it is a shame we didn't see the likes of the Sovereign or Intrepid occasionally onscreen during the Dominion War. Even fleeting images such as news feed of the war in other sectors so not caught up in the stories of the DS9 crew.
Concur with posters that it is a shame we didn't see the likes of the Sovereign or Intrepid occasionally onscreen during the Dominion War. Even fleeting images such as news feed of the war in other sectors so not caught up in the stories of the DS9 crew.
Also worth noting in regard to the Miranda class vessels - none of them had to resort to ramming an enemy ship!
One of them had to resort to suicide-by-Genesis-Device (and it still didn't work).
I just watched that bit in Sacrifice of Angels where the Defiant breaks away from its Miranda wingmen--the Card Galors and the Jem BC just brutalized them.
Which is exactly what you'd expect, given that they're tiny torpedo-boats (or at best ancient DD's or even DE's) and the Jem BCs and to a lesser extent the Galors are capital ships.
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Seriously, regarding the Excelsior, IIRC the script for TSFS actually specified that the comparison visually between the Excelsior and the Enterprise should be equivalent to a B-17 and a B-29. Grafting the idea of the longevity and usefulness of the real-world B-52 to the Excelsior is a brilliant idea that really helps explain - well, everything.
One of them had to resort to suicide-by-Genesis-Device (and it still didn't work).
yes but that one went up against a constitution - thee constitution - Enterprise! That said the way the Dominion war portrayed the Mirandas they appeared very much like cannon-fodder. So the idea that they were used akin to torpedo boats might help to explain why they went up like kindling. What an unjust fate.
Lyndon LaRouche and Trek, a bimonthly publication of some circulation.
You know, in the design, I can really see it. The B-29 was a beautiful plane of curves, not angles.
yes but that one went up against a constitution - thee constitution - Enterprise! That said the way the Dominion war portrayed the Mirandas they appeared very much like cannon-fodder. So the idea that they were used akin to torpedo boats might help to explain why they went up like kindling. What an unjust fate.One of them had to resort to suicide-by-Genesis-Device (and it still didn't work).
For a brief period, it appears they were the baddest ass in the fleet, so they had their moment.
It's amazing they can still even present a threat--the time-in-service is so huge, it's like the HMS Dreadnought facing off against a CVN.
Time in the fleet? According to the beginning of TSFS, the average lifespan of a Constitution-class vessel was 20 years.
Admiral Morrow: Jim, the Enterprise is 20 years old. We think her day is over....
Admiral Morrow: Jim, the Enterprise is 20 years old. We think her day is over....
Maybe projected useful lifespans were shorter back then. It's the same way in real history. Take the P-51 Mustang, it was one piece of badass--for about eight years. Then take the F-15, a design with a lifetime measured in decades and showing no signs of stopping anytime in the immediate future.
For what it's worth, the F-15 emerged as part of the penultimate batch of mass-produced Cold War projects... maybe that's where the Excelsior and Miranda belong, from a technological history standpoint, the last big things to come down the pipe before peace between the Federation and Klingons made the huge investments into new weapons systems pointless.
Plus with the switchover to transwarp, it was bound to happen that the non-convertible designs would be left in the dust...
For what it's worth, the F-15 emerged as part of the penultimate batch of mass-produced Cold War projects... maybe that's where the Excelsior and Miranda belong, from a technological history standpoint, the last big things to come down the pipe before peace between the Federation and Klingons made the huge investments into new weapons systems pointless.
Plus with the switchover to transwarp, it was bound to happen that the non-convertible designs would be left in the dust...
Also worth noting in regard to the Miranda class vessels - none of them had to resort to ramming an enemy ship!
One of them had to resort to suicide-by-Genesis-Device (and it still didn't work).
I just watched that bit in Sacrifice of Angels where the Defiant breaks away from its Miranda wingmen--the Card Galors and the Jem BC just brutalized them.
Yet those two Miranda's survived two hours of flying through the Dominion's formation before they were destroyed and when they were destroyed the Defiant's shields were seriously starting to give and her destruction looked imminent, so it was an impressive showing by the class.
Also worth noting in regard to the Miranda class vessels - none of them had to resort to ramming an enemy ship!
One of them had to resort to suicide-by-Genesis-Device (and it still didn't work).
I just watched that bit in Sacrifice of Angels where the Defiant breaks away from its Miranda wingmen--the Card Galors and the Jem BC just brutalized them.
Yet those two Miranda's survived two hours of flying through the Dominion's formation before they were destroyed and when they were destroyed the Defiant's shields were seriously starting to give and her destruction looked imminent, so it was an impressive showing by the class.
Even then, I believe that when the Klingons fly to the rescue and you see some scattered Starfleet vessels zipping around the enemy fleet, at least one of those ships was a Miranda. Since those ships were in the general vicinity of the Defiant, and the Defiant soon escaped, we can probably reason that those other ships made it to the other side of the blockade, too. Go Miranda!
Of course, the Enterprise is generally accepted to have 'really' been 40 years old at the time, so Morrow is probably rounding up to account for the beginning of her last major refit about 16 years prior...
That sounds about right to me - a paradigm/focus shift, if you will. One might also argue that Starfleet decided to refocus on exploration and that the ambitious, long-range gigantic explorer projects like the Ambassador and Galaxy were what Starfleet then focused on, instead of quickly replaced redesigns for a war that was probably no longer going to happen.
Saywhatnow?Plus with the switchover to transwarp, it was bound to happen that the non-convertible designs would be left in the dust...
(You of course know where I stand on the transwarp issue...)
This warmed my heart and rallied my spirit: Go Mirandas!
One of them had to resort to suicide-by-Genesis-Device (and it still didn't work).
I just watched that bit in Sacrifice of Angels where the Defiant breaks away from its Miranda wingmen--the Card Galors and the Jem BC just brutalized them.
Yet those two Miranda's survived two hours of flying through the Dominion's formation before they were destroyed and when they were destroyed the Defiant's shields were seriously starting to give and her destruction looked imminent, so it was an impressive showing by the class.
Even then, I believe that when the Klingons fly to the rescue and you see some scattered Starfleet vessels zipping around the enemy fleet, at least one of those ships was a Miranda. Since those ships were in the general vicinity of the Defiant, and the Defiant soon escaped, we can probably reason that those other ships made it to the other side of the blockade, too. Go Miranda!
Mirandas, I think, have gotten a bum rap, I think because of what we saw in Sacrifice of Angels. And also because I think it was a bit shocking to see a starship get blown away like those two did in a full scale battle.
I wondered about Mirandas too, were they tough modern built ships, and those we saw just happened to be the ones that got hit, or were they obsolete ships that got slaughtered by the hundereds?
I always thought they were newly produced ships, old design, modern technology and weapons.
The other argument against was that they were older obsolete ships, that were easier to destroy, and performed badly.
So the question was, why in the world would starfleet rely on this ship during the war?
When I look at them in S.O.A, I saw tough-looking ships that looked like they could launch a large barrage of torpedoes while piling through enemy ships.
They did seem to get pretty far inside the blockade before they were finally outflanked and then they went after the defiant which was close to getting outnumbered itself.
Starfleet seemed to have had a lot faith in them...
The Intrepids looked like they could defend themselves pretty good, from what I saw in Voyager.
I wondered about Mirandas too, were they tough modern built ships, and those we saw just happened to be the ones that got hit, or were they obsolete ships that got slaughtered by the hundereds?
I always thought they were newly produced ships, old design, modern technology and weapons.
The other argument against was that they were older obsolete ships, that were easier to destroy, and performed badly.
So the question was, why in the world would starfleet rely on this ship during the war?
When I look at them in S.O.A, I saw tough-looking ships that looked like they could launch a large barrage of torpedoes while piling through enemy ships.
They did seem to get pretty far inside the blockade before they were finally outflanked and then they went after the defiant which was close to getting outnumbered itself.
Starfleet seemed to have had a lot faith in them...
The Intrepids looked like they could defend themselves pretty good, from what I saw in Voyager.
Mirandafave: Go Mirandas indeed
Yeah, I recall one of the flanking Mirandas start off the battle simply by firing a torpedo spread. Seems fairly reasonable, I think.
But as for why Starfleet relied on them so heavily? I imagine the same reason why the Dominion relied on the Bug-ships and Hideki class ships, if nothing more than just numbers.
Yeah, I recall one of the flanking Mirandas start off the battle simply by firing a torpedo spread. Seems fairly reasonable, I think.
But as for why Starfleet relied on them so heavily? I imagine the same reason why the Dominion relied on the Bug-ships and Hideki class ships, if nothing more than just numbers.
To all those Miranda lovers... don't forget, that ship was thiiiiis close to being portrayed as "upside down" (or is it right side up?)
thank your lucky stars, as that would've surely influenced ship design after it
thank your lucky stars, as that would've surely influenced ship design after it
In the TNG episode "Cause and Effect" didn't Data or someone say that the miranda was retired 80 years ago or something like that?? It may have not been the Miranda that Kelsey Grammar was commanding, but was it a similar class?
Seems like if it was the same class, then the DS9 Miranda"s were probably 24th Century upgrades...
Seems like if it was the same class, then the DS9 Miranda"s were probably 24th Century upgrades...
I think just because we saw those Mirandas get destroyed, it made a few more fans. These ships fell for their um, country or space.... I think it had an impact that made them more popular and caused more debate.
Were the Mirandas outdated and performed badly? Somehow, Starfleet managed to fight the Dominion to a stalemate with these ships included in the fleet.
They managed to destroy the entire toras 3 shipyards and from the scenes we saw, Mirandas were a huge part of that task force.
And during the attack of Chintoka, one was in good condition, flying along with the Defiant, helping to destroy those generators which caused the capture of Chintoka.
Were the Mirandas outdated and performed badly? Somehow, Starfleet managed to fight the Dominion to a stalemate with these ships included in the fleet.
They managed to destroy the entire toras 3 shipyards and from the scenes we saw, Mirandas were a huge part of that task force.
And during the attack of Chintoka, one was in good condition, flying along with the Defiant, helping to destroy those generators which caused the capture of Chintoka.
Kelsey Grammar technically commanded a Soyuz-class ship, which (in the time of models before CGI) was a Miranda without the roll bar across the top.
I believe all the ships seen in DS9 were actual Mirandas and not Soyuz's
