Question about To The Death (season 4 ep)

[JHoffman555]

Hi -
I'm currently watching DS9 from first to last episode for the first time.

At the episode "To The Death" and something doesn't make sense. (Perhaps it is explained later on?)

The team of Jem'Hadar and Federation (and Jeffrey Combs as the Vorta) go to attack the band of renegade Jem'Hadar to make sure they don't get the "Gateway." Two questions:

1 - How is this renegade band surviving without Ketracel White?
2 - Instead of the attack (which cost a few "redshirts") why not have Odo appear as a Founder and tell the Jem'Hadar to stop. Surely even these rebels stil consider Founders to be Gods?

 

[Timo]

Some excuses:

1 - The symptoms don't set in until after several days. Perhaps the renegades managed to crack the safety box of their Vorta in that time, or coerced their Vorta into helping them out.
2 - The Jem'Hadar apparently cannot recognize a Founder unless it shapeshifts for them. Odo might be dead before he had time to pacify the renegades. OTOH, Odo has often been threatened by the Jem'Hadar before: perhaps he is on their hit list and off their list of figures to worship?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Marie1]

1- Its possible they had large supplies from before they went rogue. I believe they keep rather large quantities in their cargo holds- or can at least. Plus if they had sympathizers, or were raiding White facilities, its not a problem.

2- Most Jem'Hadar have never seen a Founder, and as Weyoun points out in the episode- their ability to control the Jem'Hadar, even tho it's "implanted" hasn't worked perfectly- thus the need for White. The Jem'Hadar who allied with Sisko even considered Odo a traitor and would probably have captured him and brought him to the Great Link. Also, they did show a defference (sp) to him when he shapeshifted in front of the ones on the planet. Plus, I got the impression some of those Jem'Hadar were quite young, one from Sisko's team being able to take on 2 at once etc.

And what Timo said.

 

[dave_R_treker]

I've always had a question about this episode. Though mine is about the station. At the begining we see the an upper pylon destroyed. In the next epiosde the station is whole again. Where did they get the spare parts to rebuild the pylon.

 

[Timo]

Well, the upper pylon may have been blasted loose, rather than blasted to bits. There might only be one to three levels' worth of structure to rebuild before the pylon could be reattached to the stump.

At the time, Bajor was not in the throes of extreme poverty any more, nor besieged by enemies. The raw materials could have been shipped in within the time available...

...Especially when we don't know the available time. A long streak of episodes before and after this one goes stardate-free, thankfully enough.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Marie1]

Mad engineering skillz... and replicators... but then again- don't we seem them repairing that pylon in the opening credits for the rest of the series??

 

[DeafPoet]

At the end, after the "friendly" Jem'Hadar blast Weyoun, they grab his box of White and say something to the effect of "Guess he won't be needing this anymore." This leads me to believe that even though the White is secured, the Jem'Hadar can still get at it if need be.

So, since the renegade Jem'Hadar had a fortified position with a bunch of them on hand, it stands to reason their Vorta overseers had a corresponding bunch of White on hand that they could get at once their Vorta were dead. Plus, though I don't think it was explicitly stated, I got the impression that the renegades were on their own for something like weeks rather than months, so it's perfectly believable that they were able to last as long as they did, probably hoping they could figure out the Gateway in time to go score some more White before they ran out.

 

[Marie1]

^ And that would make sense too in that a lot of the actions/speech between the Vorta and the Jem'Hadar are ritualized. Its more about keeping the Jem'Hadar in their place then pure necessity. The special lock on the case is probably reminding the Jem'Hadar that the weak, deceitful Vorta are still their superiours... *You're not allowed to unlock this only me, which is good cause any one of you could knock my head off my shoulders with a single punch* sort of ideal. Vorta bug me. -_-

 

[Enterprise1981]

In "One Little Ship," the Jem'Hadar who hijacked the Defiant had access to the white on their own with their Vorta not having accompanied them. And in "To the Death," Weyoun said these Jem'Hadar broke their oath of loyalty to the Founders. So even if Odo was able to convince these rogue Jem'Hadar that he was a Founder, they probably would not have listened.

 

[nx1701g]

I've always had a question about this episode. Though mine is about the station. At the begining we see the an upper pylon destroyed. In the next epiosde the station is whole again. Where did they get the spare parts to rebuild the pylon.

At the time Bajor and Cardassia were on friendly terms so the Cardassians may have given them the repair parts.

 

[Marie1]

In "One Little Ship," the Jem'Hadar who hijacked the Defiant had access to the white on their own with their Vorta not having accompanied them. And in "To the Death," Weyoun said these Jem'Hadar broke their oath of loyalty to the Founders. So even if Odo was able to convince these rogue Jem'Hadar that he was a Founder, they probably would not have listened.

...maybe... but rebelling vs an "absentee" god who is almost a myth and an angry one standing in front of you are different. They looked a lil scared when they finally saw Odo...

 

[DS9Continuing]

2 - The Jem'Hadar apparently cannot recognize a Founder unless it shapeshifts for them.

I don't believe that's true. When the Jem'Hadar child reacted to Odo the way he did in "The Abandoned," it was because a) it was the first he'd ever seen a Founder at all, and b) he'd been running away pretty fast and not looking for anyone that might be a Founder. Other than that, we haven't seen any evidence either way.

Indeed, DS9-r novel Unity (yes, I know it's not canon) establishes that Taran'atar knew perfectly well that...

Spoiler: spoilers for [I]Unity[/I]

... Odo was a Founder, even though he was disguised as Wex.

 

[Marie1]

^ Did he know, or was he told? We don't hear- they meet- they talk and then later we find out he knows...

But I don't think the young one would have run through him if he had known, and Odo has been attacked by Jem'Hadar before, the Search part one for example. And him being in on the Defiant at the last battle didn't prevent the Jem'Hadar from shooting at them... I would have broadcast a message on all channels...

 

[Damask]

Indeed, DS9-r novel Unity (yes, I know it's not canon) establishes that Taran'atar knew perfectly well that...

Spoiler: spoilers for [I]Unity[/I]

... Odo was a Founder, even though he was disguised as Wex.

Hmm I can't really see that. I couldn't see the Founders allowing the Jem'hadar to be able to detect them when shapeshifted.

 

[DS9Continuing]

But I don't think the young one would have run through him if he had known, and Odo has been attacked by Jem'Hadar before, the Search part one for example. And him being in on the Defiant at the last battle didn't prevent the Jem'Hadar from shooting at them... I would have broadcast a message on all channels...

Okay, I'll give you that one.

I suppose the explanation there would be that the Jem'Hadar had never seen a Founder in that form before, since the rest of the Link only took a similar form to make Odo feel welcome, so they didn't recognise him as such. And that does invalidate my earlier argument. (Within show, maybe the writers didn't want to tip viewers off to the fact that the Changelings were the Founders, as that was supposed to be a secret until the end of part 2.)

I'm certainly not saying that they instinctively know where a Founder is, from a distance. Weyoun said that the Jem'Hadar would never have fired on Odo's runabout if they knew he was on board, which means that they didn't already know that.

But surely a Founder out and about in the galaxy must have some way of signalling to a Jem'Hadar that they're present, so they don't get killed. What if they're busily slaughtering a population which a Founder has infiltrated. If they don't know the Founder is there (and they don't always get that kind of information, they just do what they're told, the Founders' movements are none of their business, usually), then there's a danger of the Jem'hadar killing the Founder along with the rest of the population.

 

[Marie1]

^ Does this mean I get a cookie? Pleaase! And not a peak frean or whatever they're called!

I'd imagine that the ships can scan for Founders, as I'm sure even Fed ships can recognize them. And they'd only have to shape shift on front of them, as Odo does... or just sling out a tentacle and wrap it around one of their throats and say Look Here You!!!! But-- aren't there other species with shape shifting abilities SF has encountered?

 

[Timo]

One might suppose that the odds of a Founder being in the target area are pretty close to zero usually. After all, most people in the Dominion think that the odds of a Founder even existing are zero. It could be a really rare moment that a shapeshifter really gets involved in any business with the solids, and when it does, it acts carefully so as not to end up in the line of fire.

Somehow, though, I am inclined to think that the Founders may have some sort of a subliminal code (perhaps a smell, perhaps a telepathic message) that they can choose to send or not send, depending on whether they want to reveal themselves to the Jem'Hadar or not. The Jem'Hadar would not really realize they are being given a code; they would just suddenly get the feeling that his was one of their Gods. And Odo would not yet have learned this code, and thus would frequently be attacked.

But this is not a necessity as per onscreen material. By that material alone, the Jem'Hadar simply might not have a clue.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Damask]

But this is not a necessity as per onscreen material. By that material alone, the Jem'Hadar simply might not have a clue.

Very possible. We saw in "The Die Is Cast" that the Founder was onboard a ship that was getting hit by the Jem'hadar. Now the Founder did escape by transporting so...

Actually in "Broken Link" didn't O'Brien say he could inject Odo with something so they could keep a lock on him? They didn't do it then because Odo would have joined the link. Maybe the Founders have a tracking device or similar that they conceal inside them. Useful for the Vorta to beam them away and possibly something the Jem'hadar would recognize.

 

[Marie1]

Kinda- O'Brien thought the compound would disperse in the link with Odo and they'd end up with a transporter full of founders... it would have been hilarious!

I'd say ships can scan for them like the sensors can pinpoint other species, otherwise they need to see the Founders in flux.