Question about Clues

[tim0122]

Clues is a really good episode, but there's one thing I never understood. I'm probably misunderstanding an actual explanation given in the episode. Wouldn't the crew have realized they lost a day and then two or more days (after the second attempt) when they interact with others outside the ship again? Like, wouldn't have a space station been like, "It's Thursday, not Tuesday." Or is the "wormhole" supposed to have transported them through time as well? Meaning for the crew, they were "only out for 30 seconds," but the ship traveled a few days ahead in time while they were out?

 

[Finn]

plot

 

[Oddish]

I'm sure that whatever the Enterprise crew did the second time around to ensure that all potential clues were obliterated, it included providing an explanation for the lost time.

 

[Mojochi]

After they're first knocked out, Data says it's only been 30 seconds, but that they've traveled a day's distance through the would-be wormhole. He then resets the clocks to match everybody else. The wormhole accounts for the temporal displacement. They presume it's a natural event & just knowingly reset their own clocks to be synchronous with everyone else, after the fact. I assume the same thing happened the second time.

The discrepancy is that the clocks shouldn't have read only 30 seconds difference at all. They had to be adjusted to that fraudulent time, to sell that story to the crew, & during the episode Geordi figures it out.

 

[Oddish]

There was a discrepancy in the first iteration. That was one of the "clues". Once they were aware of it, the crew could ensure that it was addressed.

 

[Mojochi]

After the crew wakes up the first time...

Sir, I should realign the ship's clock with Starbase 4-10's subspace signal to adjust for the time distortion

Riker adds up that the distance they went should've taken them a day. They assume the "wormhole" dumped them out a day ahead of everyone, in a matter of 30 seconds, and subsequently realign themselves to the right time... not yet knowing that they themselves had deliberately altered their own clock to give that impression, in order to conceal the secret day.

It later gets found out. However, after the second attempt, it does not, because apparently no one goes looking that time, due to there being no other suspicious things pointing them in the direction to investigate their clock again. They assume they skipped two days this time, due to the wormhole's temporal distortion, & just reset to normal & go on their merry way, none the wiser

 

[evilchumlee]

Wormholes are weird, so it's really not outlandish that they just assumed what was 30 seconds to them was longer in real time due to wormhole chicanery.

 

[CoveTom]

You know, the whole mess could have been avoided if once they were out of the aliens' space, Data had just told Picard the truth.

 

[Mojochi]

You know, the whole mess could have been avoided if once they were out of the aliens' space, Data had just told Picard the truth.

I've been saying that for years. It makes no damn difference to anyone that he actually follow thru on holding the secret, but if a secret order had instead been given to Data, to keep everyone in the dark UNTIL they're at a safe distance, everything would've been better than fine.

The Paxans go on thinking they got their way. Everybody gets away safely, & the crew can now knowingly better safeguard the planet from further interaction with accidental passersby.

Instead, Picard fully kowtowed & put Data in a very bad position. You'd even maybe expect that to be standard operating procedure for an organization accustomed to first contacts. Surely, part of that is expecting that some of who you'll meet might never have wanted to be met & will take exception to outsiders knowing about them. So you pretend, to the best of your ability, that you can wipe the knowledge of them from the record, so they won't get all belligerent about it maybe

 

[ThankQ]

You know, the whole mess could have been avoided if once they were out of the aliens' space, Data had just told Picard the truth.

Could Data have made that choice on his own? Would he have considered himself bound to follow Picard's order?

A few days later, Data should have gone to Picard and suggested he issue to Data the standing order that if Picard ever orders Data to conceal something from him, Data should agree as the situation necessitates and later, if Data believes any and all potential danger has passed, reveal what he agreed to conceal.

And then Picard could scratch is head, consider the implications of what Data just said, and then order Data to reveal anything he's ordered him to keep private in the past.

 

[CoveTom]

Could Data have made that choice on his own? Would he have considered himself bound to follow Picard's order?

A few days later, Data should have gone to Picard and suggested he issue to Data the standing order that if Picard ever orders Data to conceal something from him, Data should agree as the situation necessitates and later, if Data believes any and all potential danger has passed, reveal what he agreed to conceal.

And then Picard could scratch is head, consider the implications of what Data just said, and then order Data to reveal anything he's ordered him to keep private in the past.

That does bring up another interesting question. Data received the original order to conceal the information from Picard. Picard has the authority to later countermand his own order. Picard does, indeed, give data a direct order to reveal the truth to him in the episode. Should that not be sufficient grounds for Data to let him know what's going on?

 

[ThankQ]

That does bring up another interesting question. Data received the original order to conceal the information from Picard. Picard has the authority to later countermand his own order. Picard does, indeed, give data a direct order to reveal the truth to him in the episode. Should that not be sufficient grounds for Data to let him know what's going on?

If everything goes to plan how will Picard ever know to give that order?

 

[CoveTom]

If everything goes to plan how will Picard ever know to give that order?

But Picard did give that order. He says, "Then, Mister Data, I'm going to ask you again, and I order you to directly answer me. What really happened to us?"

 

[NCC-73515]

"I am ordering you never to reveal what has happened here today. Not to Starfleet, not to myself. You will conceal your knowledge of the Paxans for as long as you exist." overrides "Then, Mister Data, I'm going to ask you again, and I order you to directly answer me. What really happened to us?"

 

[Oddish]

Maybe after watching Starfleet experience a few failed attempts to deceive themselves, the Paxans would just say: "If the other sentient races in this galaxy as as dumb as you are, you guys aren't a threat. So we're not going to bother hiding anymore."

 

[Mojochi]

That does bring up another interesting question. Data received the original order to conceal the information from Picard. Picard has the authority to later countermand his own order. Picard does, indeed, give data a direct order to reveal the truth to him in the episode. Should that not be sufficient grounds for Data to let him know what's going on?

It depends on how you interpret the order. The present Picard is not privy to all the information that the past Picard was, when issuing the original order, & would he in fact still give this new order were he to be? Clearly, Data assumes that it's Picard's ignorance of the situation that prompts this new order, & makes it less valid than the standing order, of an equivalent rank, that implicitly forbids him to reveal things to specifically him.

It's a pretty shitty Catch 22 to have done to Data, (that had alternatives, as I see it) but he handles it as best he can IMHO. It's dumb of Picard. How can he order Data to withhold truths from Starfleet on the whole? Picard is not God. There are higher ranks that can supercede that order anyhow

 

[Mojochi]

Could Data have made that choice on his own? Would he have considered himself bound to follow Picard's order?

A few days later, Data should have gone to Picard and suggested he issue to Data the standing order that if Picard ever orders Data to conceal something from him, Data should agree as the situation necessitates and later, if Data believes any and all potential danger has passed, reveal what he agreed to conceal.

And then Picard could scratch is head, consider the implications of what Data just said, and then order Data to reveal anything he's ordered him to keep private in the past.

I dunno. It's all a rather fantastical scenario to begin with, but doesn't what you're suggesting equate to an order to just do what you think is right whenever I'm ordering something, & you think you know better? What kind of order is that? It's like a blank cheque.

In the end, Data actually does reveal everything, when there's no other option, which means he eventually did disobey Picard's initial order. So it's all going to come to that, in the worst case scenario, anyhow.

 

[CoveTom]

It depends on how you interpret the order. The present Picard is not privy to all the information that the past Picard was, when issuing the original order, & would he in fact still give this new order were he to be? Clearly, Data assumes that it's Picard's ignorance of the situation that prompts this new order, & makes it less valid than the standing order, of an equivalent rank, that implicitly forbids him to reveal things to specifically him.

It's a pretty shitty Catch 22 to have done to Data, (that had alternatives, as I see it) but he handles it as best he can IMHO. It's dumb of Picard. How can he order Data to withhold truths from Starfleet on the whole? Picard is not God. There are higher ranks that can supercede that order anyhow

The whole thing doesn't stand up to much scrutiny. Can Picard give an order to disobey his future orders? I'm not sure how that would work. In any event, as you point out, he certainly has no authority to order Data to defy Starfleet and ignore orders from admirals that might come down.

The whole thing rests on Picard's belief that they could conceal what happened with 100% effectiveness so that Data wouldn't be put in that position -- he would just have to keep his mouth shut. But Picard should know that such 100% "erasure" is impossible. There will always be inconsistencies, traces, etc.

 

[DonIago]

I've been saying that for years. It makes no damn difference to anyone that he actually follow thru on holding the secret, but if a secret order had instead been given to Data, to keep everyone in the dark UNTIL they're at a safe distance, everything would've been better than fine.

The Paxans go on thinking they got their way. Everybody gets away safely, & the crew can now knowingly better safeguard the planet from further interaction with accidental passersby.

Instead, Picard fully kowtowed & put Data in a very bad position. You'd even maybe expect that to be standard operating procedure for an organization accustomed to first contacts. Surely, part of that is expecting that some of who you'll meet might never have wanted to be met & will take exception to outsiders knowing about them. So you pretend, to the best of your ability, that you can wipe the knowledge of them from the record, so they won't get all belligerent about it maybe

I wonder how Picard would explain that to Wesley "Starfleet doesn't lie!" Crusher?

 

[Mojochi]

I wonder how Picard would explain that to Wesley "Starfleet doesn't lie!" Crusher?

I mean, their philosophies can't be set in stone. If someone is intent on killing you just for finding out they exist, & will not accept you continuing to exist with an active knowledge of them, then they suck lol, and their wishes or demands are not paramount IMHO

Especially when you're at a disadvantage, plying them with a suitable amount of bullshit, to ensure (or insure) your safety & the greater good, is just sensible practice, in order to avoid conflict. "Put on your best poker face #1".

Besides, Wes stumbles into the "duty to truth" quagmire pretty awfully himself eventually. It ain't no black & white world.