Q Who overshadowed by BOBW?

[Vulcanian]

I think I enjoy "Q Who" more.

It seems like everyone likes BOBW a lot. When you really get down to it, loses it's charm after the first time you watch it. John De Lance's performance was superb and adds atmosphere to the episode

Personally, I think the Borg are much scarier in "Q Who" than in BOBW.

 

[cultcross]

Hmm, scarier? I disagree - the addition of the 'assimilation' idea to the Borg added a level of scariness which wasn't there in 'Q Who' - in the earlier episode, they're unstoppably dangerous yes, but they're just beefed up aliens with guns like anyone else our heroes have fought. In BOBW they can take from your ranks to make more of their own, a new and scary idea - I don't think the Borg have ever been more badass than the moment of 'Resistance is futile, Number One.'

 

[DanTheGrey]

I like 'Q Who?' a bit better than BOBW, however I think I see the appeal. The threat becomes very very personal in BOBW where it was a bit more of an academic threat in Q Who? since their existance is revealed and everyone gets a good scare.

BOBW you see that they have a plan, go after one person in particular, use 1 ship to almost destroy the Federation, kick Riker out of complacency as first officer and showed that it was only going to be through thinking that they could ever stop the Borg. The fact that they were gunning for Picard as the key to the Federation just builds up the character and overall the episode had more direct repercussions than Q Who.

I just think Q Who was better written and a little tighter as a story getting while setting up this 'big bad' of incredible proportions.

 

[blockaderunner]

In my opinion, the Borg lost a lot in BOBW because of the assimilation aspect. Predictably, they became your standard cliched space vampires, scary to only your avarage Red Shirt and utterly beatable every time.


What made the Borg in Q Who so terrifying is the psychological damage they inflicted on the Enterprise crew. In the past, the crew prided themselves with standing shoulder to shoulder with other sentients in the galactic neighborhood. The Borg shattered that by implying, "Hey, we don't even acknowledge you as a lifeform worthy of our attention. We just want your technology,". Plus the fact that Q Who established that the Borg had nurseries to keep its population intact kind of rendered the concept of assimilation superfluous and was an obvious sci-fi gimmick born out of lazy and/or uninspiring writing. Man, if someone were to reboot Trek in the future, I hope they have some gifted, creative writers who could take what was established in Q Who regarding the Borg and run with that. No Hugh, no Queen, and no "resistance is futile" crap.

 

[cultcross]

blockaderunner said:
scary to only your avarage Red Shirt and utterly beatable every time.

Except in their very first assimilation onscreen they took the series' star and made him one of their own. And at the time, there was serious hiatus discussion as to whether it would be permanent.

 

[erastus25]

blockaderunner said:
In my opinion, the Borg lost a lot in BOBW because of the assimilation aspect. Predictably, they became your standard cliched space vampires, scary to only your avarage Red Shirt and utterly beatable every time.


What made the Borg in Q Who so terrifying is the psychological damage they inflicted on the Enterprise crew. In the past, the crew prided themselves with standing shoulder to shoulder with other sentients in the galactic neighborhood. The Borg shattered that by implying, "Hey, we don't even acknowledge you as a lifeform worthy of our attention. We just want your technology,". Plus the fact that Q Who established that the Borg had nurseries to keep its population intact kind of rendered the concept of assimilation superfluous and was an obvious sci-fi gimmick born out of lazy and/or uninspiring writing. Man, if someone were to reboot Trek in the future, I hope they have some gifted, creative writers who could take what was established in Q Who regarding the Borg and run with that. No Hugh, no Queen, and no "resistance is futile" crap.

I agree with you to an extent. The "cliched space vampire" thing was pretty damn scary - until voyager made it more or less reversible. An effective reboot, I think, would mean a completely irreversible process and also give the Borg the ability to create their own young. That way they are a danger to individuals but the Borg themselves are not reliant on assimilation for drones.

 

[Noname Given]

blockaderunner said:
In my opinion, the Borg lost a lot in BOBW because of the assimilation aspect. Predictably, they became your standard cliched space vampires, scary to only your avarage Red Shirt and utterly beatable every time.

Agreed - Q's line in Q-Who - "They're only interested in your vessel. They've identified it as something they can use."

By that they were more just a force of nature - there was no common ground and no negotiating. Once the assimilation aspect was intriduced, they beame 'space vmpires' and (imo) lost something.

The Borg were 100% 'de-fanged' once the 'Borg Queen' was introduced since now they COULD be negotiated with.

But I agree that Q-Who had the best version of the Borg; and really wish we'd neer seen a 'Borg Queen'.

 

[startrekwatcher]

Q Who is a very strong episode but it just doesn't come together the way BoBW does. Q Who is the tease and BoBW is the actual full on engagement occurring. It's dark, fatalistic, there's tons of rarely seen TNG action and battles, our captain assimilated and seemingly lost, and a horrifying sense that all could be lost.

 

[Redshirts_Widow]

blockaderunner said:
In the past, the crew prided themselves with standing shoulder to shoulder with other sentients in the galactic neighborhood. The Borg shattered that by implying, "Hey, we don't even acknowledge you as a lifeform worthy of our attention. We just want your technology,".

Completely agree with this. As a seven year-old who started watching Trek with TNG, this was the first time that I had seen my heroes get their ass handed to them on a platter. It somewhat opened my eyes. There was no winning solution, no reasoning, no negotiation. The only escape was to plead with Q for salvation.

Jinkies!

 

[blockaderunner]

I would like to add that I might have liked BOBW better if the writers had the cojones and had Riker destroy the cube, Locutus and all. It would have sent a clear message in the Trekverse and fandom in general that the Borg was a threat not to be taken lightly and Our Heroes would be willing to make any sacrifice to hold them at bay. But alas, with all Modern Trek two parters it was MOTS with a great setup with part 1 and reset-o-rama with part two.

 

[Vulcanian]

Redshirts_Widow said:

There was no winning solution, no reasoning, no negotiation. The only escape was to plead with Q for salvation.

Thank you, that's the reason why I think Q Who was better. Kidnapping the captain seems like it's been done before. Sure it's pretty dramatic when you first saw it but it seems dry after a while.

 

[Anwar]

blockaderunner said:
I would like to add that I might have liked BOBW better if the writers had the cojones and had Riker destroy the cube, Locutus and all. It would have sent a clear message in the Trekverse and fandom in general that the Borg was a threat not to be taken lightly and Our Heroes would be willing to make any sacrifice to hold them at bay. But alas, with all Modern Trek two parters it was MOTS with a great setup with part 1 and reset-o-rama with part two.

The crew were willing to make any sacrifice, becasue they fired at the Cube knowing it would kill Picard (how were they to know it wouldn't work?) and again let the Cube be blown up not knowing if it would've killed Picard or not.

And anyways, TNG would've only lasted like 1 or 2 mor seasons without Patrick Stewart's acting/presence.

 

[Noname Given]

Anwar said:

blockaderunner said:
I would like to add that I might have liked BOBW better if the writers had the cojones and had Riker destroy the cube, Locutus and all. It would have sent a clear message in the Trekverse and fandom in general that the Borg was a threat not to be taken lightly and Our Heroes would be willing to make any sacrifice to hold them at bay. But alas, with all Modern Trek two parters it was MOTS with a great setup with part 1 and reset-o-rama with part two.

The crew were willing to make any sacrifice, becasue they fired at the Cube knowing it would kill Picard (how were they to know it wouldn't work?) and again let the Cube be blown up not knowing if it would've killed Picard or not.

And anyways, TNG would've only lasted like 1 or 2 mor seasons without Patrick Stewart's acting/presence.

You do realize:
----------------
1) Patrick Stewart was in contract re-negotians at the time that this was written; and it was not a certainty he was going to continue in the role.

2) HAD Patrick Stewart left th series, it was planned to continue the show with Riker as Captain, and Elizabth Deny as first officer (she had a one season option on her contract).

However, when an agreement was reached, we got what we got (Pacard saved, Riker's field commission revoked, etc.) But at the time that waqs another element that made all this interesting.

 

[blockaderunner]

Anwar said:
And anyways, TNG would've only lasted like 1 or 2 mor seasons without Patrick Stewart's acting/presence.

There's where you're wrong. This wasn't TOS with a Big Three and four or five background characters to fill in an ethnic quota. This was a true ensemble show with strong, fully developed characters who, given the time and oppurtunity, could have carried the show without a lead or two or the addition of new leads. The series could have abandoned the "crew as family" theme and had an organic and intriguing run. You have the realize the creative well was drying up (and the ratings were dipping as well). Not changing the principal cast or their personalities was a contributing factor.

 

[Mage]

cultcross said:

blockaderunner said:
scary to only your avarage Red Shirt and utterly beatable every time.

Except in their very first assimilation onscreen they took the series' star and made him one of their own. And at the time, there was serious hiatus discussion as to whether it would be permanent.

I can only imaging what it was like back then. These days, you know exactly what's gonna happen in the first three episodes of the new season, before the old season is finished, thanks to internet. It was a little bit different back then. Man, that must've been something else.

 

[Redshirts_Widow]

Mage said:

I can only imaging what it was like back then. These days, you know exactly what's gonna happen in the first three episodes of the new season, before the old season is finished, thanks to internet. It was a little bit different back then. Man, that must've been something else.

Ah the age old question of whether spoilers are useful to an information-hungry fan or just ruin the eventual viewing of the programme they have waited so long to see by spoiling any possible suprise.

For those who watched BOBW when it originally aired and with the hiatus in between parts 1 and 2; do you think that Pt 2 would have lost its impact had the internet been posting spoilers throughout the end of season period?

(Edited to fix appaling spelling)

 

[Trekfan21]

This really brings back memories. I had just finished 2nd or 3rd grade, and I was coming back from a trip to summer camp. I had no idea BOBW was the season finale. We stopped at a Mr. Gatti's pizza in West Texas somewhere, and they had BOBW playing on the big screen. I was just blown away by what I was seeing. And then I hung out to see the teaser trailer for the next week's episode, and it was for "Yesterday's Enterprise." I remember thinking WTF! Remember I was only in 2nd grade at the time. I didn't realize I would have to wait all summer long until I got an issue of the Fan Club magazine that explained it was a cliffhanger ending.

 

[Unicron]

Noname Given said:

Agreed - Q's line in Q-Who - "They're only interested in your vessel. They've identified it as something they can use."

By that they were more just a force of nature - there was no common ground and no negotiating. Once the assimilation aspect was intriduced, they beame 'space vmpires' and (imo) lost something.

The Borg were 100% 'de-fanged' once the 'Borg Queen' was introduced since now they COULD be negotiated with.

But I agree that Q-Who had the best version of the Borg; and really wish we'd neer seen a 'Borg Queen'.

My memory's not perfect, but I think what Q actually says in "Q Who?" is that the Borg were interested in technology, and they had identified the Enterprise as something they could consume. Personally I just view the whole assimilation process as always having been a part of the Borg, and simply not seen in their first appearance. From the Collective's perspective, humanoids are simply a form of living technology.

I don't think the queen "defanged" the Borg. I think their fangs were limited from the start because of how powerful they were, and they had to be used sparingly. That's why every single encounter with the Borg (excluding Voyager's) was with a lone vessel, despite Guinan's statement that Borg never do anything piecemeal. I don't have a problem with the queen concept in viewing the Collective like an insect colony.

 

[Mallory]

I prefer Q Who myself. I'm old enough to have watched the original series on NBC, spent the 10 years waiting for a movie and then another seven waiting for another series. After almost two decades, Q Who introduced an enemy that couldn't be defeated. That was a first for Star Trek and a genuine "Oh Shit" moment for long time fans.

BOBW was the beginning of the end when it came to being terrified by the Borg. Trek would have been far better off had they remained the implacable enemy that they were in Q Who and simply lurked around the edges, never seen but a constant danger. Instead they got turned into a crutch and eventually became just like any other villain of the week by the time Voyager got done with them.

 

[Computer]

When rewatching BoBW I try to pretend like I havent been watching TNG for 20 years. This helps remind me of how I originally felt when I saw a Captain that I had grown to love and admire turn into a villan.

While I enjoyed Q Who it didn't have that emotional aspect of BoBW. Putting Riker against Picard for me had the impact of being betrayed by ones own brother even if it wasnt by Picards own choice.

One line Guinan used that really brought it home for me was while talking to the new Captain Riker "Our relationship goes beyond friendship and beyond family, and I WILL let him go, and you must do the same. It's the only way to defeat him.... It's the only way to save him"

I would have made some changes however such as perhaps leaving the facial scars left by the Borg implants on Picards face and maybe finding a new way to detroy that cube hovering over Earth instead of Data putting them to sleep.