Putting the Shatner "ego issue" from TOS to rest

[Dale Sams]

Actually, both he and Grace Whitney were pretty awful in "Flashback." They weren't nearly as bad in TUC, and Takei was actually really good in the movie. Could have been some crappy direction, as Takei isn't really a bad actor. So I don't know what was going on there.

I was afraid to say anything about Grace as I hadn't read any criticism of her. But I agree with you.

 

[Ssosmcin]

Well, I certainly don't want to pick on her; she's been through a lot and hasn't performed on screen all that much (and she's a hell of a sweet lady). But it was noticeable.

 

[Grant]

Shatner didn't ruin the Sulu captaincy scene in TWOK. I've seen it and it's fine. Whatever the reason they cut it was--it wasn't because of that.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

I'm glad I wasn't the only one who cringed for dear life during that stupid Voyager episode.

 

[Grant]

I'm glad I wasn't the only one who cringed for dear life during that stupid Voyager episode.

That's funny, the first time I saw it struck me how horrible Whitney and Takei were. Then as the years went by--it became the worst performance in Trek history in my mind. Later when i rewatched it--it wasn't as bad as I remembered.

But it IS bad. I atribute it to them both acting less and less and the fact that for Takei it was a really big deal. I think he was trying too hard and not being natural.

Thinking--"I'll show them I can carry a show!"

 

[ZapBrannigan]

But it IS bad. I atribute it to them both acting less and less and the fact that for Takei it was a really big deal. I think he was trying too hard and not being natural.

Thinking--"I'll show them I can carry a show!"

Agreed, but I find myself wondering if there was an aspect of sibling rivalry involved. The VOYAGER writers, producers, director, etc., might have subconsciously wanted the prior "generation" guest stars to come off badly so that VOYAGER itself would look better by comparison. And if they want you to look bad, you are going to.

I'm sure this suspicion is mostly or entirely wrong, and the guest stars really were just wooden that day. Stiff acting was a staple ingredient of the Classic Cast films.

 

[Anji]

Ah, the legend of Shatner's ego...almost as big as the legend of his toupee!

 

[Melakon]

I don't know what happened with George. In the series, he was believable and did what few character scenes he got really well. But during the films, his style changed. Maybe it was all the convention appearances. He developed a pompous, orotund speaking style that younger Sulu never showed. He started sounding increasingly phony, as if in love with the sound of his own voice.

 

[jayrath]

May I humbly offer an alternative point of view?

Let's all appreciate TOS for what it was, at the time. Gossip and accusations are not doing anyone any good. Let's all think the best of everyone back on the Desilu (and then Paramount) lot, and get on with it. I, for one, do not want to fight battles over anyone's 40-year-old memories.

 

[Ssosmcin]

It felt more like George was "emulating Kirk" in the films. Especially in his Captain role, he was very "Kirkish." That could actually be a character development; he learned under Kirk and obviously admired the hell out of him.

 

[Melakon]

That would make sense. Very early, maybe it was in Whitfield's Making of ST, or Gerrold's World of ST, Takei said Kirk was Sulu's role model.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

I don't know what happened with George. In the series, he was believable and did what few character scenes he got really well. But during the films, his style changed. Maybe it was all the convention appearances. He developed a pompous, orotund speaking style that younger Sulu never showed. He started sounding increasingly phony, as if in love with the sound of his own voice.

That's it; I'd say you put your finger on it. Having been a bloviator in local politics and an eagerly applauded speaker at ST conventions, Takei infused film-Sulu with a level of vanity and pomposity that even Shatner himself couldn't carry off. That's why film-Sulu seemed mannered and artificial.

 

[Grant]

I don't know what happened with George. In the series, he was believable and did what few character scenes he got really well. But during the films, his style changed. Maybe it was all the convention appearances. He developed a pompous, orotund speaking style that younger Sulu never showed. He started sounding increasingly phony, as if in love with the sound of his own voice.

That's it; I'd say you put your finger on it. Having been a bloviator in local politics and an eagerly applauded speaker at ST conventions, Takei infused film-Sulu with a level of vanity and pomposity that even Shatner himself couldn't carry off. That's why film-Sulu seemed mannered and artificial.

I agree with you both. In the series, he seemed to be trying to play, oddly enough, the 'average joe American' even though the show was in the future, of course. No attitude, no airs, just a competent officer who happened to be asian.
Then during the movies, he became more and more poumpous and affected.
It's like he watched too many Kurosawa movies and decided that he should be this 23rd century samurai. The ego boost he got from the fans and perhaps him thinking too much about "who is this man?", made him forget who the character was in the series.

You got to hand it to Koenig, despite being stuck with the accent and the silly way he was written in the series sometimes--he just went with it in the movies, never trying to reinvent Chekov.

 

[Melakon]

It has since occurred to me that the later-movies Sulu sounded very much like afflicted Sulu's D'Artagnan in The Naked Time: "You either leave this war bloodied, or with my blood on your swords."

 

[AtoZ]

I don't know what happened with George. In the series, he was believable and did what few character scenes he got really well. But during the films, his style changed. Maybe it was all the convention appearances. He developed a pompous, orotund speaking style that younger Sulu never showed. He started sounding increasingly phony, as if in love with the sound of his own voice.

An excellent, sharp point of observation.

 

[T'Girl]

...almost as big as the legend of his toupee!

The Shatner Turbo 2000.

 

[trevanian]

It felt more like George was "emulating Kirk" in the films. Especially in his Captain role, he was very "Kirkish." That could actually be a character development; he learned under Kirk and obviously admired the hell out of him.

That's even borne out indirectly by Koenig. At one point in TMP, they had Chekov in the captain's chair (not in the final cut, though, probably watching would have been Kirk attacked by vger antibodies) and he caught himself running his finger down the side of his face and realized he was unconsciously emulating Shatner's Kirk.

I thought Takei's Sulu in TUC was a revelation; he had a grounding to him that seemed like real military, a little more by the book than Sisko but a for real performance (and about the only one of note I can ever recall seeing him give.) He didn't seem like a Kirk-clone at all, but a genuine character.

Upthread people were saying stuff about 'sulu for captain' being a campaign from well into the TOS feature era, but if you've read MAKING OF TREK CONVENTIONS, which came out in 1980 I think, it is pretty clearly stated that the 'sulu for capt' thing started during the early major cons in the 70s.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Upthread people were saying stuff about 'sulu for captain' being a campaign from well into the TOS feature era, but if you've read MAKING OF TREK CONVENTIONS, which came out in 1980 I think, it is pretty clearly stated that the 'sulu for capt' thing started during the early major cons in the 70s.

I didn't know that. But I'll bet Takei is the person who started Sulu for Captain, in much the way Roddenberry personally engineered the letter writing campaigns that delayed STAR TREK's cancelation.

 

[trevanian]

Upthread people were saying stuff about 'sulu for captain' being a campaign from well into the TOS feature era, but if you've read MAKING OF TREK CONVENTIONS, which came out in 1980 I think, it is pretty clearly stated that the 'sulu for capt' thing started during the early major cons in the 70s.

I didn't know that. But I'll bet Takei is the person who started Sulu for Captain, in much the way Roddenberry personally engineered the letter writing campaigns that delayed STAR TREK's cancelation.

Learning from the master.

 

[R. Star]

I didn't read the whole thread so maybe this was touched upon... but the Shatner ego?

Star Trek V, written by Shatner... Kirk is of so epic proportions that the proper antagonist for him is God... and God dies. How much bigger of an ego can you get than that?