Putting the Shatner "ego issue" from TOS to rest

[Ssosmcin]

Still, look at who Shatner had most of his scenes with.

Most of the time actors spend on a set is not spent actually performing. It's sitting around waiting and waiting for the next setup. As such, you are likely to bond with anybody who is physically on the set, as long as you don't have a snobby attitude about who is or isn't worth talking to.

I realize that, but for the most part it seems the big guys went back to their trailers during set ups, unless they were at the "rehearsal table" instituted by Marc Daniels. And since Shatner and Takei didn't have that many scenes together in comparison to scenes with Nimoy or Kelley, he'd still be spending more time between set ups with the main cast. Takei and the others wouldn't even be on the call sheet to pal around with. He didn't have to be a jerk, but neither did he have to know a damned thing about Takei's life. He admitted in his first book that he realized, after 25 years, he never really knew the man.

Honestly, if someone in my life made it that obvious he didn't care to know me, he'd he off my radar except when we had to work together. When asked, all you'd get would be "a nice enough guy, but we weren't close." It all adds up to the same thing for the lower tier cast: get over it.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

It all adds up to the same thing for the lower tier cast: get over it.

Agreed. It was borderline insane to take what was in large part a fan invention of a completely united cast/happy family, then turn around and magnify Shatner's past into something negative for not fitting into that post-series invention.

...as mentioned a week ago, the lower tier cast conveniently spare Nimoy, who was bucking for an expanded role, more money, etc., which would not help give more screen time to the others, but reduce it, as the pie was primarily cut up between three actors. No word about that, but Nimoy was looking out for himself during the TOS production as much as Shatner. In fact, his high visibility in early merchandising (Spock was the only character to have his own model kit during the first run) insured he could argue for a bigger part/profit, and since Shatner was the series star and as crucial to its success as Nimoy, that meant the bitter bunch were not going to be elevated. Add guest stars--who serve the next vital component to weekly episodes, and the rest had to work with what was left.

Nimoy would not stand up for them until the TAS production intended to elminate the lower tier characters, but what was happening on the TOS set/production office was clear, yet they said nothing about it in their generations' worth of bitching.

Hypocrites.

 

[Winterwind]

It all adds up to the same thing for the lower tier cast: get over it.

Agreed. It was borderline insane to take what was in large part a fan invention of a completely united cast/happy family, then turn around and magnify Shatner's past into something negative for not fitting into that post-series invention.

...as mentioned a week ago, the lower tier cast conveniently spare Nimoy, who was bucking for an expanded role, more money, etc., which would not help give more screen time to the others, but reduce it, as the pie was primarily cut up between three actors. No word about that, but Nimoy was looking out for himself during the TOS production as much as Shatner. In fact, his high visibility in early merchandising (Spock was the only character to have his own model kit during the first run) insured he could argue for a bigger part/profit, and since Shatner was the series star and as crucial to its success as Nimoy, that meant the bitter bunch were not going to be elevated. Add guest stars--who serve the next vital component to weekly episodes, and the rest had to work with was left.

Nimoy would not stand up for them until the TAS production intended to elminate the lower tier characters, but that was happening on the TOS set/production office was clear, yet they said nothing about it in their generations' worth of bitching.

Hypocrites.

What's the popular phrase? "Quoted for truth"?

 

[Harvey]

The line was shot. I've seen a workprint of the film at UCLA, which includes this short scene, and Shatner flubs the take.

(Of course, it's a good thing Sulu wasn't promoted. If he was, he'd probably have departed the series.)

Can you verify this? I mean it sounds interesting and I am not calling you out, but as one anonymous person on the internet to another, this is pretty thin as far as evidence goes.

I only have the audio from the workprint. I may put it online at some point, when I have a moment to edit the roughly 90 minutes (it's missing the last reel, presumably to keep Spock's death a secret) into shorter segments.

This is how I transcribed the scene, which I suppose isn't much help, since I assume it matches the shooting script pretty closely.

SULU
Well, I’m delighted. Any chance to go aboard the Enterprise, however briefly. It’s always an excuse for nostalgia.

KIRK
Well, with Spock as Captain you don’t think I’m going to turn anything up, do you?

CUT-AWAY to STOCK from TMP

KIRK
(looks down at Sulu, looks back up)
By the end of the month, you’ll have your own command, the U.S.S. Excelsior.

MCCOY
Well, congratulations, Commander.

SULU
Thank you, sir. I’ve been looking forward to that for a long time.

KIRK
Well I for one am glad to have you at the helm for three weeks. I don’t think these kids can steer.

 

[marksound]

Maybe I missed something, but if Sulu was supposed to get Excelsior by "the end of the month" why was Doogie Howser's dad the captain in the next movie?

Seriously, I don't think I've ever come across an explanation for that.

 

[Dale Sams]

Maybe I missed something, but if Sulu was supposed to get Excelsior by "the end of the month" why was Doogie Howser's dad the captain in the next movie?

Seriously, I don't think I've ever come across an explanation for that.

Sulu didn't have a cool riding crop

 

[marksound]

Maybe I missed something, but if Sulu was supposed to get Excelsior by "the end of the month" why was Doogie Howser's dad the captain in the next movie?

Seriously, I don't think I've ever come across an explanation for that.

Sulu didn't have a cool riding crop

That we know about.

 

[Ssosmcin]

Maybe I missed something, but if Sulu was supposed to get Excelsior by "the end of the month" why was Doogie Howser's dad the captain in the next movie?

Seriously, I don't think I've ever come across an explanation for that.

Sulu didn't have a cool riding crop

That we know about.

We only knew about the assless chaps.

 

[Lucky]

Maybe I missed something, but if Sulu was supposed to get Excelsior by "the end of the month" why was Doogie Howser's dad the captain in the next movie?

Seriously, I don't think I've ever come across an explanation for that.

I guess since that didn't end up in TWOK, they didn't feel beholden to follow up on it in the next movie.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Spock was the only character to have his own model kit during the first run

I agree with everything you're saying except this one technicality: the Spock kit came out in 1974.

I built one at the time. I painted the boulders metalic gold and silver, as if the three-headed serpent was guarding a treasure.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Spock was the only character to have his own model kit during the first run

I agree with everything you're saying except this one technicality: the Spock kit came out in 1974.

The 1974 kit was one of AMT's many reissues. The first Spock vs. 3-headed serpent kit was released in 1968 by Aurora Plastics in the UK, but licensed by AMT for North American release, while AMT was responsible for all other TOS kits (starships, Galileo shuttlecraft, Command Bridge, Exploration Set, etc.).

With Spock being the only screen accurate figure (sort of)--of any kind--made while the series was in production, Nimoy must have felt an astounding amount of power, but i'm sure Doohan, Takei, Nichols and Koenig were looking the other way, or on some extended coffee break when big Nimoy developments happened...

...it was all about that darn devil Shatner--the Grand Manipulator of All Things Star Trek.

I built one at the time. I painted the boulders metalic gold and silver, as if the three-headed serpent was guarding a treasure.

If you have not spotted the old Keith Meyer Space Station kit site (ton of modeller galleries), take a look at the fantastic Spock kit build-up from a fine modeller named S.M. Clark:

http://www.majormattmason.net/auroracollecto/grouppics/smclark/clark%27s20.htm

Back in the day, I could only wish my Spock kit turned out like that!

 

[ZapBrannigan]

I knew about the reciprocal relationship between Aurora and AMT, but not about the 1968 UK Spock kit. Thanks for the info, T-God.

 

[Dale Sams]

It's been forever since I read Takei's book, or Shatner's first two...and if the others wrote a book, I didn't read them. BUT...arn't the most damning accusations that Shatner would ask for "their" lines to be cut or given to him? Or that he would say things like, "We don't need to cut away to Sulu here"...and finally if Shatner DID intentionally flub those lines to keep Sulu from being promoted?*

It's things like that, that would seperate him from Nimoy. NOW...did they have to make a living off it? Did Doohan have to make it a blood feud? No. But I'm just pointing out why Nimoy might escape scrutiny.

*Why Shatner would do that, and why Takei would care so much about a fictional promotion, I have no idea.

edit: I would also point out that I don't have a 'side' here. If anything, I find it curious that it took forever for Doohan to bury the hatchet with Bill. If Doohan was rebuffing Bill practically up to Doohan's deathbed...well...all props to Shatner for trying to make amends LONG after I would have given up.

 

[AtoZ]

It all adds up to the same thing for the lower tier cast: get over it.

Agreed. It was borderline insane to take what was in large part a fan invention of a completely united cast/happy family, then turn around and magnify Shatner's past into something negative for not fitting into that post-series invention.

...as mentioned a week ago, the lower tier cast conveniently spare Nimoy, who was bucking for an expanded role, more money, etc., which would not help give more screen time to the others, but reduce it, as the pie was primarily cut up between three actors. No word about that, but Nimoy was looking out for himself during the TOS production as much as Shatner. In fact, his high visibility in early merchandising (Spock was the only character to have his own model kit during the first run) insured he could argue for a bigger part/profit, and since Shatner was the series star and as crucial to its success as Nimoy, that meant the bitter bunch were not going to be elevated. Add guest stars--who serve the next vital component to weekly episodes, and the rest had to work with what was left.

Nimoy would not stand up for them until the TAS production intended to elminate the lower tier characters, but what was happening on the TOS set/production office was clear, yet they said nothing about it in their generations' worth of bitching.

Hypocrites.

Excellent post!

 

[diankra]

I knew about the reciprocal relationship between Aurora and AMT, but not about the 1968 UK Spock kit. Thanks for the info, T-God.

It really originated in the UK in 1968? Star Trek wasn't run in the UK till June '69... Oh well, maybe they were planning ahead after looking at the US sales?

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

I knew about the reciprocal relationship between Aurora and AMT, but not about the 1968 UK Spock kit. Thanks for the info, T-God.

It really originated in the UK in 1968? Star Trek wasn't run in the UK till June '69... Oh well, maybe they were planning ahead after looking at the US sales?

Yes, but Aurora jumped on licenses pretty quick when they were pushing TV and comic-based models. No other model maker during the 60s had as many licensed media figure kits, so its no surprise the striking look of Spock, the unusual uniform and weapons was thought to be right up their alley.

Aurora must have realized the BBC was preparing or interested in ST early on, as their box cover carried the line, "Mr. Spock of Star Trek - From the BBC TV series," instead of simply uisng AMT's subtitle "Star Trek's Most Popular Character."

 

[trevanian]

It all adds up to the same thing for the lower tier cast: get over it.

Agreed. It was borderline insane to take what was in large part a fan invention of a completely united cast/happy family, then turn around and magnify Shatner's past into something negative for not fitting into that post-series invention.

...as mentioned a week ago, the lower tier cast conveniently spare Nimoy, who was bucking for an expanded role, more money, etc., which would not help give more screen time to the others, but reduce it, as the pie was primarily cut up between three actors. No word about that, but Nimoy was looking out for himself during the TOS production as much as Shatner. In fact, his high visibility in early merchandising (Spock was the only character to have his own model kit during the first run) insured he could argue for a bigger part/profit, and since Shatner was the series star and as crucial to its success as Nimoy, that meant the bitter bunch were not going to be elevated. Add guest stars--who serve the next vital component to weekly episodes, and the rest had to work with what was left.

Nimoy would not stand up for them until the TAS production intended to elminate the lower tier characters, but what was happening on the TOS set/production office was clear, yet they said nothing about it in their generations' worth of bitching.

Hypocrites.

Excellent post!

And what is particularly damning is the about-face some of them did. In the bio SHATNER WHERE NO MAN from 1979 came out, Doohan has words to the effect that Nimoy was always concerned about the character of Spock, but Shatner was concerned about the whole show.

Doohan even goes on to admit that while he might not have thought this way earlier, by the time he was interviewed he thought Shatner was the best actor in the cast. Now some of this could just be telling the interviewers what they wanted to hear, but why put it all across this way when you know you'll probably be dealing with these issues and questions repeatedly for the next 20 years?

 

[trevanian]

Maybe I missed something, but if Sulu was supposed to get Excelsior by "the end of the month" why was Doogie Howser's dad the captain in the next movie?

Seriously, I don't think I've ever come across an explanation for that.

Well the novelization of SFS addressed it to some degree, with Sulu having been tarred by the brush of the Genesis affair (all that X-FILES/Watergate conspiracy feel of SFS is even more retro than TUC at times.)

it obviously worked out better for Sulu this way, since he didn't have to deal with the 'lemon' version of EXCELSIOR, and presumably only got command after it had been taken from experimental status (NX) to fully operational (NCC)

But there's a lot in TWOK that is ignored or contradicted in SFS. Even though all the 'Saavik is half-Rom' stuff is cut from TWOK, it is clear she ain't a straight Vulcan anyway, given the swearing, the emotional moodswings (she sounds like a panicked cheerleader when she squeak out, 'prepare for warp speed') and her coming on to Kirk (more pronounced in the ABC version by far, with a closeup that left very little open to interpretation.)

Yet in SFS Saavik -- as directed by Nimoy, so understand this is no criticism of Robin Curtis, who I think has gotten the short end of the stick from everybody for decades when I know for a fact she is capable of delivering a much fuller-blooded performance based on a forceful and devoted schoolteacher she once played later in the 80s -- is about as unemotional a Vulcan as one could imagine, only occasionally letting excitement over a discovery hint at emotions within. Certainly her lameass 'Admiral - David is dead' as Nimoy directs it is an epic stupendously embarrassing fail.

 

[AtoZ]

Maybe I missed something, but if Sulu was supposed to get Excelsior by "the end of the month" why was Doogie Howser's dad the captain in the next movie?

Seriously, I don't think I've ever come across an explanation for that.

Well the novelization of SFS addressed it to some degree, with Sulu having been tarred by the brush of the Genesis affair (all that X-FILES/Watergate conspiracy feel of SFS is even more retro than TUC at times.)

it obviously worked out better for Sulu this way, since he didn't have to deal with the 'lemon' version of EXCELSIOR, and presumably only got command after it had been taken from experimental status (NX) to fully operational (NCC)

But there's a lot in TWOK that is ignored or contradicted in SFS. Even though all the 'Saavik is half-Rom' stuff is cut from TWOK, it is clear she ain't a straight Vulcan anyway, given the swearing, the emotional moodswings (she sounds like a panicked cheerleader when she squeak out, 'prepare for warp speed') and her coming on to Kirk (more pronounced in the ABC version by far, with a closeup that left very little open to interpretation.)

Yet in SFS Saavik -- as directed by Nimoy, so understand this is no criticism of Robin Curtis, who I think has gotten the short end of the stick from everybody for decades when I know for a fact she is capable of delivering a much fuller-blooded performance based on a forceful and devoted schoolteacher she once played later in the 80s -- is about as unemotional a Vulcan as one could imagine, only occasionally letting excitement over a discovery hint at emotions within. Certainly her lameass 'Admiral - David is dead' as Nimoy directs it is an epic stupendously embarrassing fail.

ABC version? Please explain.

 

[Melakon]

ABC added some footage in their network broadcast, with alternate takes in the Saavik/Kirk turbolift scene. Those alternate takes included Saavik making more suggestive glances at Kirk.