Purposing Federation Ships During the Dominion War

[Timo]

I noticed you criticise and refuse the information without giving anything else in return.

I just wish to point out that there is nothing classifiable as "information" to begin with, and you'd do wisely not to imply that there is.

The technologically more advanced vessels have better shields and weapons allowing some of them to survive the assault.

We don't really see this happen. Rather, we see ships die at an alarming rate without achieving anything much; for all we know, the Cube at Wolf 359 was identically damaged, but triumphed nevertheless. The only reason the engagement in ST:FC lasted longer might have been because more ships were involved, and it simply took the Borg a longer time to destroy 298 ships than it took to destroy 39.

Sure, different ships probably have different capabilities. Else why build different ships? But by the same token, not every ship can be "the best", and there is no reason to think the most advanced would be the best combatant. Nothing indicates the Intrepid class would have combat merit, as surely we would have seen it fighting in the Dominion War if it was worth anything. We never did. We did see her in courier duty, which suits well her dialogue-acknowledged high speed.

The Defiant did avoid most hits

Where do we see her avoid being hit? Star Trek battles do not generally involve misses (except when Klingons are spraying'n'praying with their disruptors). But ships do appear to hold fire to a surprising degree, perhaps exactly because they don't want to waste shots on something that could turn out to be a miss. However, the amount of fire the Defiant received did not differ from the amount of fire received by background ships one way or the other. It just happened that some background ships died spectacularly when hit, while others and the Defiant did not.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[jpch]

Oh i never thought about that...good thinking.
maybe thats why the only ship that was not getting blown up in the Dominion war was the Galaxy

Did you already forget the Galaxy ship that was blown up in The Jem'Hadar?

yes i remember the USS Odyssey,but that was before the large fleet battles...they were upgraded against polaron weapons after and we did not see any getting destroyed.

 

[Dream]

yes i remember the USS Odyssey,but that was before the large fleet battles...they were upgraded against polaron weapons after and we did not see any getting destroyed.

I heard that the DS9 writers wanted that ship to be the Enterprise that was blown up. How much more shocking would it have been if it had been a ship that we had been following for seven years?

 

[Mark_Nguyen]

That's new... Where was this from? Closest I've read was that they wanted to THEMATICALLY build up the Dominion by showing that in a straight-up fight, a ship just like the Enterprise would have been no match against three small Jem'Haddar ships. Also, there would be no way they'd consider doing that with the Generations movie already in advanced planning stages by the time they got around to breaking the DS9 season finale.

Mark

 

[Dream]

That's new... Where was this from? Closest I've read was that they wanted to THEMATICALLY build up the Dominion by showing that in a straight-up fight, a ship just like the Enterprise would have been no match against three small Jem'Haddar ships.

Yeah, that's what I meant. They wanted people to think it COULD have been the Enterprise.

 

[Mark_Nguyen]

hehe,but the Intrepid has a mark 9 warpcore that allows it to achieve a speed of 9.975 impossible to for the Galaxy to reach,if you remember warp 9.6 was max speed 9.8 could destroy the ship,i highly <doubt> a ship with slower main propulsion has more power.

The Enterprise-D popped Warp 10 once. Ask Geordi. ;P

In any case, the Intrepid weighs a fraction of a typical Galaxy class starship (700,000mt versus 5,000,000, if you believe the manuals), so in terms of raw power I wouldn't think an Intrepid would NEED a powerplant with more lightbulb power than its much larger cousin.

MArk

 

[Dukhat]

Yeah, that's what I meant. They wanted people to think it COULD have been the Enterprise.

Well, that's a far cry from saying that it was supposed to be the Enterprise.

Now with that said, I think that would have been a fantastic way for the Ent-D to have its demise (with the main crew having had time to evacuate in escape pods, of course). It certainly would have been more dramatic than getting hit with a stray torpedo from an antiquated Bird of Prey. That way Generations could have started with a new Enterprise instead of First Contact.

 

[Timo]

Of course, having there be so many survivors that all the main cast makes it to safety would seriously undermine the "Jem'Hadar message" of ruthlessness...

I personally enjoyed the use of a Picard-like captain in a ship like Picard's more than I would have enjoyed a TNG crossover here, for the cleverness of the dramatic choice. But I'm sure the climax could have been pulled off as a crossover, too. It would just have been different in more ways than the obvious ones.

...In terms of alternate dramatic takes, how about it really being Picard here, but Sisko's XO having been Ro from the get-go? The mini-conflict that endears us to / alienates us from Keogh would have been played out, only with the audience now knowing the full story, and both sides of it.

In any case, at the time of the episode, the audience was supposed to be thinking of the Galaxy class as the most potent Starfleet combatant; there were no alternatives being offered. So the choice of ship type in the episode would have been dictated by these concerns alone, even if one forgets about this being the hero ship of a sister show. (Although of course the Galaxy being a top combatant is a direct consequence of it being the hero ship of the sister show.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[TheRoyalFamily]

Re: Wolf359 performance vs. Sector 001:

It is most likely that several of the ships there were designed specifically with such a scenario in mind: we know that the Defiant-class for sure was, and the Intrepid (not seen, I don't think) and the Sovereign almost certainly were as well. The remaining ones likely have had upgrades since then, again in anticipation of such an attack. Indeed, Starfleet felt comfortable having a very powerful, new ship sit the battle out.

Wolf 359 was a complete surprise against an enemy of unknown capabilities. Starfleet knew the Borg would be back, and had been preparing for years.

 

[R. Star]

yes i remember the USS Odyssey,but that was before the large fleet battles...they were upgraded against polaron weapons after and we did not see any getting destroyed.

I heard that the DS9 writers wanted that ship to be the Enterprise that was blown up. How much more shocking would it have been if it had been a ship that we had been following for seven years?

That was shocking enough as it was. Sure it was a guest star ship, but it was a Galaxy class, which was the baddest ship out there at the time. I was fully expecting them to get away and them was just like.... ... when the Jem'Hadar ship kamikazed them.

Had the Enterprise been there, and been destroyed I probably would have screamed at the TV... and I don't know if that's good or not. Killing off the whole TNG cast would've been WAAAY too much, but it would've been equally as lame if all of them somehow lived. So perhaps using the guest star ship was the best move.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

^ You know I hated how both the Enterprise and the Odyssey were taken down without anything resembling a fight. Like we saw in earlier TNG and later during the Dominion War. The Galaxy class has 12 type X phaser arrays and 2 torpedo bays that can fire 10 photon torpedoes simultaneously at 10 different targets. Yet neither the Odyssey nor the Ent unloaded any of their stockpile of torpedoes on the Jem'Hadar or that ONE FRAKKING bird of prey. What were the writers/producers thinking? Looking at you Berman >_>

 

[R. Star]

^ You know I hated how both the Enterprise and the Odyssey were taken down without anything resembling a fight. Like we saw in earlier TNG and later during the Dominion War. The Galaxy class has 12 type X phaser arrays and 2 torpedo bays that can fire 10 photon torpedoes simultaneously at 10 different targets. Yet neither the Odyssey nor the Ent unloaded any of their stockpile of torpedoes on the Jem'Hadar or that ONE FRAKKING bird of prey. What were the writers/producers thinking? Looking at you Berman >_>

In the Jem'Hadar, I'd imagine they were looking at the figures for their special effects budget.

Generations had no excuse though. I honestly would've rather seen the Enterprise fight the uphill battle against the odds straight up then just shoot once then technobabble their way through it like they did.

 

[jpch]

^ You know I hated how both the Enterprise and the Odyssey were taken down without anything resembling a fight. Like we saw in earlier TNG and later during the Dominion War. The Galaxy class has 12 type X phaser arrays and 2 torpedo bays that can fire 10 photon torpedoes simultaneously at 10 different targets. Yet neither the Odyssey nor the Ent unloaded any of their stockpile of torpedoes on the Jem'Hadar or that ONE FRAKKING bird of prey. What were the writers/producers thinking? Looking at you Berman >_>

well on both occasions the Jem'hadar and BOP are firing at the ships without shields or penetrating them,and hitting the Engineering/warp core section repeatedly so its most likely that the ships were low on power and barely can defend themselves...

 

[Vanyel]

The Enterprise was also caught in orbit with little room to maneuver. Except for the first strike, the Duras' were behind the Enterprise. While the Enterprise does have full spherical coverage, she doesn't have full power coverage in that sphere. There has been no on screen evidence that the aft launcher could fire a 10 torpedo burst, so that is just way aft coverage is less than bow coverage.

The torpedoes are said to have guidance systems, but I do not believe we have seen then deviate much out of the direction of the launcher on any ship. In otherwards we have never seen a forward launched torpedo circle around and strike a target behind the ship. Even the 1701A with its newly installed plasma sensors never circled around 1701A. When fired, on screen evidence shows a conical firing pattern. Not sure if I'm describing that properly but forward torpedoes fire like this ">" aft like this "<". The aft torpedoes have a larger cone of fire since they don't have to clear the saucer before moving up (relative to the ship). Forward launcher should probably be on, or near, the leading edge of the saucer both dorsal and ventral sides to eliminate that problem. Still could keep the one on the neck, for when the saucer separates

 

[Timo]

The torpedoes are said to have guidance systems, but I do not believe we have seen then deviate much out of the direction of the launcher on any ship.

Apart from the corkscrewing homing torpedo of ST6:TUC, the new torpedoes of the Galaxy class did impressive zigzags in "Genesis". Granted, they weren't supposed to, but while the guidance system was faulty, the ability to maneuver was inherent in the torpedo and should thus be available in fighting situations as well.

Also, whenever the E-D fired spreads of torpedoes in TNG (fairly rarely, mainly in "Arsenal of Freedom" and "Yesterday's Enterprise"), the torpedoes executed remarkably sharp turns.

However, another fact we learned about Galaxy class torpedoes, in several episodes including "Q Who?" and "New Ground", was that they could not be used at short distances without being destructive to the firing ship as well. This would completely rule out their use in "Jem'Hadar" where the enemy swarmed the ship at point blank ranges. A homing torpedo could quite possibly track the enemy and score a kill, but at the cost of severe damage to the Odyssey as well, not to mention to the runabouts. (Runabouts supposedly were armed with torps in this battle as well, and if those were of a smaller and lesser type, they might have been used to effect. But it might well be that a target that cannot be hurt by the perfectly scoring main phaser beam of a Galaxy isn't going to pay much attention to the torpedo of a runabout-sized craft - a weapon doing fairly little damage in episodes like "The Maquis".)

In ST:GEN, torpedoes eventually were used at the ranges utilized previously in the fight. And the aft launcher was used, proving its continuing functionality. However, for all we know, the aft launcher was repeatedly used in the fight, of which we only saw a small fraction: sounds of weapons firing were heard on the bridge even when the camera didn't give us external views of torpedoes leaving the ship.

It's just that the BoP had shields that withstood far more than they were supposed to, taking even the Klingon sisters by elated surprise. Apparently, Soran had worked some of his techno-magic on them, just like he effortlessly whipped up eavesdropping devices and starkiller weapons going beyond UFP technological knowhow.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Vanyel]

The torpedoes are said to have guidance systems, but I do not believe we have seen then deviate much out of the direction of the launcher on any ship.

Apart from the corkscrewing homing torpedo of ST6:TUC, the new torpedoes of the Galaxy class did impressive zigzags in "Genesis". Granted, they weren't supposed to, but while the guidance system was faulty, the ability to maneuver was inherent in the torpedo and should thus be available in fighting situations as well.

An out of control torpedo may not be the best way to make a point and it still fell within the forward direction. It was basically a bottle rocket running every which way.

Also, whenever the E-D fired spreads of torpedoes in TNG (fairly rarely, mainly in "Arsenal of Freedom" and "Yesterday's Enterprise"), the torpedoes executed remarkably sharp turns.

Not that remarkable, in The Arsenal of Freedom, the torpedoes fired out in an arc along the plane of the launcher. In Yesterday's Enterprise, they clustered together before spreading apart (once they cleared saucer), and again they kept a regular conical firing arc.

However, another fact we learned about Galaxy class torpedoes, in several episodes including "Q Who?" and "New Ground", was that they could not be used at short distances without being destructive to the firing ship as well. This would completely rule out their use in "Jem'Hadar" where the enemy swarmed the ship at point blank ranges. A homing torpedo could quite possibly track the enemy and score a kill, but at the cost of severe damage to the Odyssey as well, not to mention to the runabouts. (Runabouts supposedly were armed with torps in this battle as well, and if those were of a smaller and lesser type, they might have been used to effect. But it might well be that a target that cannot be hurt by the perfectly scoring main phaser beam of a Galaxy isn't going to pay much attention to the torpedo of a runabout-sized craft - a weapon doing fairly little damage in episodes like "The Maquis".)

In Q Who? it was a stated that without the shields the torpedoes could destroy the Enterprise. My knowledge of New Ground is lacking, so to that point I cannot speak. In The Jem'Hadar the Odyssey could have used her torpedoes, were they guided, right away. The Runabouts broke clear of the Odyssey giving her plenty of room. The one Jem'Hadar ship that hit the nacelle flew away from the Runabouts. If they could guide a torpedo then that would have been the one to hit. But the forward launchers torpedo would have had to exit at a nearly 90 degree angle from the launcher to hit the Jem'Hadar ship. A torpedo from the aft launcher would have had to circle back around the Odyssey.

I maintain that since we've never seen the torpedoes strike a target to the side of their ship, the have limited guidance system and only have a conical area in which they can be used.

In ST:GEN, torpedoes eventually were used at the ranges utilized previously in the fight. And the aft launcher was used, proving its continuing functionality. However, for all we know, the aft launcher was repeatedly used in the fight, of which we only saw a small fraction: sounds of weapons firing were heard on the bridge even when the camera didn't give us external views of torpedoes leaving the ship.

That The Enterprise weapons systems were fully functional I have no doubt. A small bit of dialogue from Worf or Data saying shield control systems were off line, could have been the thing that kept the Enterprise from rotating her shields frequency while the BoP could keep rotating hers back and forth as she fired.

It's just that the BoP had shields that withstood far more than they were supposed to, taking even the Klingon sisters by elated surprise. Apparently, Soran had worked some of his techno-magic on them, just like he effortlessly whipped up eavesdropping devices and starkiller weapons going beyond UFP technological knowhow.

Timo Saloniemi

Easier, I think, to say that the Enterprise lost control of the shields and they were stuck at that frequency. The BoP was able to switch her shields back and forth keeping her safe.

 

[Photon]

yes i remember the USS Odyssey,but that was before the large fleet battles...they were upgraded against polaron weapons after and we did not see any getting destroyed.

I heard that the DS9 writers wanted that ship to be the Enterprise that was blown up. How much more shocking would it have been if it had been a ship that we had been following for seven years?

That was shocking enough as it was. Sure it was a guest star ship, but it was a Galaxy class, which was the baddest ship out there at the time. I was fully expecting them to get away and them was just like.... ... when the Jem'Hadar ship kamikazed them.

Had the Enterprise been there, and been destroyed I probably would have screamed at the TV... and I don't know if that's good or not. Killing off the whole TNG cast would've been WAAAY too much, but it would've been equally as lame if all of them somehow lived. So perhaps using the guest star ship was the best move.

The they wouldn't have had an ENT for Generations. Which mighta been a good thing.

 

[Vanyel]

I heard that the DS9 writers wanted that ship to be the Enterprise that was blown up. How much more shocking would it have been if it had been a ship that we had been following for seven years?

That was shocking enough as it was. Sure it was a guest star ship, but it was a Galaxy class, which was the baddest ship out there at the time. I was fully expecting them to get away and them was just like.... ... when the Jem'Hadar ship kamikazed them.

Had the Enterprise been there, and been destroyed I probably would have screamed at the TV... and I don't know if that's good or not. Killing off the whole TNG cast would've been WAAAY too much, but it would've been equally as lame if all of them somehow lived. So perhaps using the guest star ship was the best move.

The they wouldn't have had an ENT for Generations. Which mighta been a good thing.

To be fair, the Odyssey took a heavy pounding and was withdrawing from battle. It is quite possible the Dominion could have let them go with their tails tucked between their legs, knowing that a message had indeed been sent. The New Bajor colony destroyed and the Galaxy class Odyssey heavily damaged and only got away because it was let go.

To quote The Changing Face of Evil:

Female Changling: No. Let them return to the Federation. Those pods are filled with frightened, demoralized troops.

Weyun: Troops that will spread fear throughout the Federation with tales of what happened here today. The Founder is wise.

They just decided to really send the message home, so there would be no doubt to their message.

 

[Timo]

in The Arsenal of Freedom, the torpedoes fired out in an arc along the plane of the launcher.

Indeed - an extremely acute arc. Had they simply kept on turning that way, they could have headed in any direction they pleased. And there's no good reason to think that a torpedo that can make a sharp 50 degree turn couldn't make

a) a sharp 550 degree turn or
b) five hundred consecutive 50 degree turns.

So torpedoes have amply demonstrated the ability to head in any desired direction, making the direction of the launch tube quite irrelevant. For example, Kirk in "The Changeling" shoots over his shoulder, ordering a target at 123.18 to be hit by a torpedo from a forward tube (as confirmed by the visual of the departure, and the dialogue reference to #2 torpedo, which was among the forward tubes listed in "Journey to Babel" along with #4 and #6).

My knowledge of New Ground is lacking, so to that point I cannot speak.

Shields at 12% encouraged our heroes to fire yield 16 torps at a range of 23 kilometers, but they were being too optimistic and suffered major damage from this.

We don't know what yield 16 means - is it a lot or a little? Yield 5 was a little in "Redemption II", but that doesn't help much since we never heard what yield 1 would mean. What our heroes were trying to do was to disperse a shockwave capable of shattering a planet, though, so "a lot" would make more sense than "a little" in the context.

In any case, the whole battle in "Jem'Hadar" took place at ranges much shorter than twenty clicks, and would probably have blown even fully shielded runabouts to smithereens from the possible hits on Jem'Hadar ships.

we've never seen the torpedoes strike a target to the side of their ship

We were told that this happened in "The Changeling", and we saw a hit that was actually better than that in ST6...

That The Enterprise weapons systems were fully functional I have no doubt.

Why? The ship was being blasted to bits, so loss of weapons would only be a natural assumption. Indeed, Riker ordered a spread of torpedoes to be prepared for the final desperate attempt to destroy the Duras sisters, but when Worf hit the trigger, only a single torpedo was fired from the aft tube...

A small bit of dialogue from Worf or Data saying shield control systems were off line, could have been the thing that kept the Enterprise from rotating her shields frequency while the BoP could keep rotating hers back and forth as she fired.

Why should we assume that shield rotation would

a) help at all against an enemy other than the Borg, or
b) not be taking place throughout the battle?

Every time the E-D rotated shields, it would be LaForge rotating them, and telling the Durases the new setting.

We have seldom heard of any opponent adjusting weapons frequency to penetrate shields, supposedly because it's impossible to know the shield frequency of the opponent unless one has a traitor aboard. But shield rotation at best keeps the enemy from utilizing a weakness. It doesn't increase the overall strength of the shields beyond their natural maximum. The BoP had feeble shields according to all the experts in the movie, on both sides: both the Klingons and the Starfleeters were convinced the ship could offer no resistance to the E-D. When it did, then, something must have been changed by some unexpected agent. Soran is the obvious suspect.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[jpch]

For me i will always regret not having seen the Sovereigns,Intrepid,Prometheus classes in the Dominion War,it was very weird having them in the Movies other series...it was a huge problematic for them to say and i quote :

''The Enterprise-E is the most advanced starship in the fleet.'' (First Contact)

''Prometheus class designed for deep space tactical missions''. (VOY ''message in a bottle'')

''Intrepid class,designed for combat performance''.
(VOY ''Thaw'')

yet Starfleet does not use them.
i think the only thing logical to comfort my mind i could think about is that all 3 classes were used but not on screen.