Pro Star Fleet Or Anti Star Fleet
- Thread starter John200
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Count me in on the "Pro" side of the argument.
Then again, I've been knuckle-dragging and trigger-happy (supposedly) actively for the past 18 years (and proud of having that status), so what do I know?
Cheers,
-CM-
And thank you to both of you.
I have heard it said that in many ways, a really good soldier is the LAST person who wants to go to war. Duty is paramount, of course, and what must be done must be done so that others don't have to...but a soldier understands more than anyone the very, very real costs of war.
I'm sure there's a minority of jerks, just like there is in any other walk of life. I have only known ONE military person (or in this case, person who wanted to be in the military and I hope to God he failed his psych exam) EVER that really was that unstable. And I've met TONS of military people, gotten to know many of them very well.
One bad seed does NOT the entire military make. Not even CLOSE.
What about West Point? That sure seems like a parallel to Starfleet Academy to me... Starfleet might not be primarily a military organization, but it definitely fills that role, and they know this and are more than prepared for that situation. Also, I'm sure Starfleet has it's nuts as does the military, but even then, the military is not made entirely up of them, nor does it even have all that many as you make it sound. It is, like with everything, simply the bad extreme that gets all the coverage.
And yes, thank you and hats off to those of you who have served in the military, for any country, and worked to protect your country and fellow countrymen.
Just to cause thread drift, I wonder how many of the species specific craft we've seen are actually Starfleet craft that were made by the member worlds, so their people(!) could serve in an environment they could work well in? Vulcan ships, made by Vulcans, serving in Starfleet, Andorian ships, made by Andorians, serving in Starfleet, etc.
I always thought Starfleet was the military. They keep calling everyone else "civilians".
Starfleet is the organization legally charged with defending the state (the Federation) in times of war. It is the Federation's armed force -- its military.
It's a military that performs numerous other functions of equal importance, including exploration, scientific research, humanitarian aid, peace-keeping, and diplomacy. But it's still a military. It may not be militaristic, but it is a military.
It's a military that performs numerous other functions of equal importance, including exploration, scientific research, humanitarian aid, peace-keeping, and diplomacy. But it's still a military. It may not be militaristic, but it is a military.
That's what I thought. So why do people say it's not?
Because somebody had some dumbass ideas about what a military actually is -- it's a legal categorization, not a behavioral categorization -- and had Picard ranting about how it's not a military in early TNG.
Huh. That explains the confusion. I don't remember Picard ranting about it. Anyways, I am anti war and anti "fight the terrorism" in many instances (not all because generalising is dumb and I am not all knowing), but anti military is taking it too far. It's like saying I'm anti public transport because the trains are sometimes delayed.
The most famous instance is "Peak Performance," from the end of Season Two, just after "Q Who" introduced the Borg. Picard is told that Starfleet wants to do war games to help prepare for a potential Borg attack. Picard initially resists because, as he puts it, "Starfleet is not a military organization. Our purpose is exploration."
Excellent analogy.
You see, of course I question a country's military decisions, but that doesn't mean I don't use my brain and think. There's more than just anti-war and pro-war. Discussing this with people can get very annoying.
As for Picard, wow, it has been a while since I've watched the early TNG seasons. I should do that again.
As for Picard, wow,
Yeah, wow. "Peak Performance" is full of things like that. This exchange seems to capture it all:
The script's amazing there -- Picard and Riker treat Kolrami with extreme contempt the entire time, yet the script only condemns HIS contempt for them. And the bit about how combat is a "minor province in the make-up of a starship captain" is just absurd -- the Federation is surrounded by hostile empires, and it's Starfleet, the "non-military organization," whose job it is to defend the Federation from them.
Writer David Kemper, IMO, wasn't particularly logical about these things when he wrote "Peak Performance." And it's a lame episode to boot.
It does come over as sanctimonious, and that is something I hate with a passion. I don't remember the episode, though. Must have been lame indeed.
It's the one where Data plays against Kolrami in the strategy video game. Data lost the game and his self-confidence. Most people remember it from that... perhaps it will jog your memory.
Taking into consideration Picard's reputation in SF overall (because of the way he was written as a character), I'm inclined to go along with his perception that SF is not a military organization.
It's main purpose is exploration, while sub-functions include being tasked with patrol of Federation borders and defending it from hostile forces.
Ultimately, it's a matter of perception.
Because in this day and age, the closest thing that resembles SF is the military, hence contemporary people perceive SF as a military organization, despite the fact it's more of a versatile organization and does far more in contrast to the military of today.
It's main purpose is exploration, while sub-functions include being tasked with patrol of Federation borders and defending it from hostile forces.
Ultimately, it's a matter of perception.
Because in this day and age, the closest thing that resembles SF is the military, hence contemporary people perceive SF as a military organization, despite the fact it's more of a versatile organization and does far more in contrast to the military of today.
But those aren't sub-functions. Those missions are co-equal with the mission of exploration. And, further, militaries don't just perform defensive missions even in real life. The navies of Europe were responsible for the Age of Exploration, for instance, and even today, the United States Coast Guard is a military even though its primary mission is maritime law enforcement. You're betraying a fundamental misunderstanding of what legally categorizes something as a military.
No, it's a matter of objective legal categorization.
A military is the organization legally charged by the state with defending the state in times of war, and which possesses the ability to use force to enforce an internal judicial system upon its members through courts-martial.
Starfleet is the institution that defends the Federation in times of war, and it uses courts-martial to enforce its own laws upon its members.
Therefore, the Federation Starfleet is a military organization.
ETA: There are other pieces of evidence that Starfleet is a military besides it fitting the definition of a military perfectly. In "Errand of Mercy," Kirk remarks that he is a soldier, not a diplomat. In "Court Martial," we discover that Starfleet is referred to as "the service" and that it uses courts-martial to enforce its laws upon its members. In Star Trek II, David Marcus objects to the idea of working with Starfleet by noting that scientists have always been the pawns of "the military" -- Carol only argues in response that Starfleet has kept the peace, not that it is not a military. In "Valiant," Nog argues that he is a soldier.
In "Homefront", when President Jaresh-Inyo objects to the increased security arrangements on Earth that Sisko says have worked well on Deep Space 9, he says, "I'm sure they have. But I hope you'll keep in mind that this is Earth, not a military installation." He is clearly saying that a Starfleet Starbase is a military installation. Later, when Sisko speaks of the dangers of a Jem'Hadar invasion of Earth, he remarks that they won't limit themselves to "military targets." At the climax of the episode, Starfleet is called upon to administer martial law on Earth -- something else only militaries can do. And finally, in "Paradise Lost," when Starfleet Admiral Leyton attempts to overthrow the Federation government and replace it with Starfleet rule, Sisko characterizes that as "military rule" and "a military dictatorship."
The preponderance of evidence is clearly in favor of the idea that the Federation Starfleet is a military. The only evidence that it is not is a single line that makes no logical sense, since it violates the definition of a military. End Edit.
Again, you're displaying some fundamental ignorance of what militaries actually do when you say that. Real history is full of precedents of militaries that engaged in exploration, scientific research, humanitarian aid, peace-keeping, diplomacy, and defense -- just like Starfleet.
It's completely fair to say that Starfleet is less militant -- that is, that it's an organization whose driving ethos is less inclined towards hostility and belligerence than many of today's militaries. But that's an issue of ethos, not of legal categorization -- the Canadian Forces have traditionally tended to regard their primary ethos as being peace-keeping, for instance, but they're as much a military as the paranoid and belligerent Korean People's Army. Motivational ethos is a very different question than legal categorization, and it varies even among today's militaries.
It's the one where Data plays against Kolrami in the strategy video game. Data lost the game and his self-confidence. Most people remember it from that... perhaps it will jog your memory.
That does ring a bell...remotely. I guess I'm gonna have to watch it again, though, after all.
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