Prime Universe time travel and the new timeline

[alpha_leonis]

I think I've read on the board before that there are a few events from the Prime Universe that should, by definition, have an equivalent storyline in the Reboot Universe.

Limiting myself to the TOS movies, this would include at least the encounters with V'Ger and the Whale Probe, since the incidents that precipitated those encounters occurred before the timelines split from each other.

That opened up a whole other train of thought in my head: out of the many times the original crew (or anybody from the original timeline) traveled back in time to before the split, would those events still happen? If the new crew goes back to rescue their own pair of whales in 1986, would they encounter their Prime Universe counterparts?

Other examples:

• Did Kirk, Spock and McCoy still appear in Sarpeidon's distant past, and would that be a requirement that the new crew is fated to fall into that same story?
• Is Data's head still buried beneath San Francisco? After all, it was the Prime Universe Data that traveled back to the 19th Century to become decapitated.

Other time-travel storylines might actually resolve themselves due to the split. For example:

• Gary Seven would probably reach Earth and complete his mission without any Enterprise interference -- compared to the Prime timeline when Kirk interfered, but then chose to step aside and let Seven do his work anyway.
• NuEnterprise likely would not slingshot back to the 1960s, "rescue" Captain Christopher, then have to return him as if nothing ever happened.
• NuMcCoy probably will never inject himself with Cordrazine, save Edith Keeler and accidentally cause a Nazi takeover.
• Gabriel Bell will probably not get accidentally shot, so no nuSisko would be required to play the role.

 

[Taelon]

Unless "Gabriel Bell" was actually Sisko all along, using Bell's name because that's what Sisko already did in Earth's history.

I think it's called an ontological paradox?

 

[danielcw]

Hello everyone!
This is my first post here.

If the new crew goes back to rescue their own pair of whales in 1986, would they encounter their Prime Universe counterparts?

I think the slingshot method has no clearly defined rules, and the slight overlap of events in Star Trek 4 (the crew returns to a time, that was before they started their timetravel) makes me think, that it might involve parallel universes.

Anyway, yes a version of Kirk and crew might exist in 1986.

Is Data's head still buried beneath San Francisco? After all, it was the Prime Universe Data that traveled back to the 19th Century to become decapitated.

If nuTrek ever wants to have its "Trials and Tribbleations",
1984 Kirk, Data's head and 2064 Picard provide some opportunities.

NuEnterprise likely would not slingshot back to the 1960s, "rescue" Captain Christopher, then have to return him as if nothing ever happened.

So without accidently learning about the slingshot method, and without our heros being stranded far away from earth, how could they resolve that?

Maybe Spock-prime has to interfere.

NuMcCoy probably will never inject himself with Cordrazine, save Edith Keeler and accidentally cause a Nazi takeover.

Shouldn't they also exist in the new timline's 1940s?

 

[The Wormhole]

• Did Kirk, Spock and McCoy still appear in Sarpeidon's distant past, and would that be a requirement that the new crew is fated to fall into that same story?

Since they didn't do anything of historical significance while in Sarpeidon's past the timeline could get along just fine if they weren't there.

 

[Mudd]

Likewise, since Edith Keeler would have died without Kirk, Spock and McCoy going back in time their failure to do so in the new continuity won't affect anything between the 1930s and Kirk's time.

 

[JWPlatt]

But the 1930s is prior to the branch of the Kelvin timeline. It still happens in Prime and the visit to the 1930s still happens; no failure. I suppose the "failure" would be that multiple sets of Kirk, Spock, and McCoy don't end up having a 1930s convention of themselves from all post-1930s timeline branches.

Some of these thought experiments seem to be at odds over whether a timeline is singular and continuous with events injected into the past rippling to the future, or causing a branch into multiple timelines. The current trend of thought is the branch, or multiverse.

 

[Franklin]

Likewise, since Edith Keeler would have died without Kirk, Spock and McCoy going back in time their failure to do so in the new continuity won't affect anything between the 1930s and Kirk's time.

And apparently that dude in SF didn't come up with transparent aluminum after all.

But the 1930s is prior to the branch of the Kelvin timeline. It still happens in Prime and the visit to the 1930s still happens; no failure. I suppose the "failure" would be that multiple sets of Kirk, Spock, and McCoy don't end up having a 1930s convention of themselves from all post-1930s timeline branches.

Some of these thought experiments seem to be at odds over whether a timeline is singular and continuous with events injected into the past rippling to the future, or causing a branch into multiple timelines. The current trend of thought is the branch, or multiverse.

It's like all the science in Trek, it meets basic minimum scientific needs for plausibility and maximizes what works for dramatic effect. "Setting a timeline straight" after all, is a moral question and a dramatic device. I doubt the universe really cares which timeline is running. Existence is existence. Only we care which one and if it's "ours" or not. "Resetting" a timeline is playing God when you think about it.

 

[Kevman7987]

The only way that I've been able to resolve the paradoxes in my own mind, I decided that the nuTimeline is a separate timeline. A timeline where past events have changed due to the lack of time travel interference. Now the real timeline fork exists before the Big Bang where Q, Q, and Voyager no longer are there, forcing an entirely new and separate universe with two Spocks.

Remember when Spock described time as a river with eddies and currents all its own? Maybe time is more like a pond with the present being the center, when you drop a stone in the middle, the ripples go outward in all directions. This way, there is no threat that our heroes end up in the past and meet themselves and no one can go into that mine in SF and find the head of an Android not native to the upcoming future. That was the only way I could sleep at night.

 

[T'Girl]

When Nero created the nu-universe, the nu-universe came complete with it's own separate history going back to the very beginnings. Any time travel event that occurred subsequent to the split in the prime universe had no manifastation in the nu-universe's past.

Since Data travel into the prime past in the prime universe's 24th century, and thereby left his head in the 19th century, there would be no Data head in the nu-universe's 18th century.

It was never in the "nu-past."

Unless nu-Data independently travels to the nu-past and left his head there as an entirely separate action.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

If the new crew goes back to rescue their own pair of whales in 1986, would they encounter their Prime Universe counterparts?

Other examples:

• Did Kirk, Spock and McCoy still appear in Sarpeidon's distant past, and would that be a requirement that the new crew is fated to fall into that same story?
• Is Data's head still buried beneath San Francisco? After all, it was the Prime Universe Data that traveled back to the 19th Century to become decapitated.

The answer to all of those questions is yes.

From the point of view of anyone and anything prior to 2233, when the split occurs, there is only one history. The 'prime' and 'Abrams' timelines are BOTH possible futures. (And remember, the original timeline still remains in existence, even after the split. Nothing has been overwritten.) Characters from either of those timelines can still travel back into the past. And they can even meet each other.

The Abrams versions of Kirk, Spock and Scotty don't ever have to travel into Sarpeidon's past, but those from the prime timeline still will. Prime Kirk and crew will still travel back from 2286 and do the thing with the whales, but nuKirk and HIS crew don't have to. The TNG crew will find Data's head, but nobody from the Abrams timeline has to (although if they happened to go back that far, they would find it). Etc. etc.

 

[Mudd]

And they can even meet each other.

That seems unlikely. Alternate time lines are allegedly created, not branched time lines.

The truth most likely is that the writers didn't think much about the ramifications of Trek's non-linear looping time stories before they decided that this was the way to go.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Alternate time lines are allegedly created, not branched time lines.

Same thing.

 

[Mytran]

And they can even meet each other.

That seems unlikely. Alternate time lines are allegedly created, not branched time lines.

This is the trouble with the "branching timelines" approach; extremely cluttered areas of common history. And if branching really is as common as the proposal in TNG's Parallels purports, you can expect to have several Kirks, Spocks and Picards in any given time period, not to mention various time travellers from other future eras.

A shared past is an awkward past.

Fortunately, arguments can be made without too much effort that most time travel stories in Trek are predestination paradoxes; Kirk and Spock were always the cause of Edith Keeler's death, Sisko was always Gabriel Bell, Picard and crew were always instrumental in Cochrane's first warp flight and so on.

With regard to the Prime / Nutrek universes, the big difference between this event and the others is the catastrophic change that Nero's initial attack wrought. History from this point onward changes, but in doing so several key time travel events in Federation history can not now occur; Mark Twain is not inspired by a vision of the future, which in turn affects Edith Keeler who is also now not killed crossing the street, Gary Seven is left unmolested (perhaps affecting the launch of Voyager 6), Gillian Taylor never vanishes and is successful in preventing the humpback whales' extinction, etc etc.

So, instead of a simple "Y" branching (with changes from 2233 only), we have a sort of "K" shape instead (with changes rippling both forward then backward in time before the timeline stabilises). The only link between the Prime and Nutrek universes is Nero's incursion, perhaps made special by the presence of Red Matter (whose properties are helpfully never defined).

 

[Mudd]

I don't think there's branching. There's replication - when an amoeba splits, there's no original amoeba left - just two that are very similar. When time lines split, there's no original timeline left, just two that are very similar.

 

[JWPlatt]

I don't think there's branching. There's replication - when an amoeba splits, there's no original amoeba left - just two that are very similar. When time lines split, there's no original timeline left, just two that are very similar.

Making a shared past impossible, like not being able to jump off your line onto a parallel line. Injecting a new event into your past creates yet another parallel copy on a different timeline than your own or the other. There is no ripple into the future. I guess that's what Spock did. He should not be able to return from his new reality, even if he went back in time prior to Nero's incursion. This is a solipsist's dream, creating one's own private universe. Does it have meaning? Perhaps only to Spock Prime.

 

[DonIago]

I prefer to believe that it isn't so much that alternate timelines are created, but rather that they existed all along...like parallel sets of railroad tracks...and time travel into the past is akin to jumping to a different set of tracks.

I also believe that Spock could return home using the method established in "Parallels" utilizing quantum signatures, though it may be that the circumstances that occurred in that episode were anywhere from uncommon to unique. While I can understand why it wasn't brought up after that episode, it seems to me that there'd be some sort of standard quantum signature check run after every later instance of time travel, to confirm that people were in the timeline they were supposed to be in.

 

[danielcw]

When Nero created the nu-universe, the nu-universe came complete with it's own separate history going back to the very beginnings.

Why do you think so?

 

[JWPlatt]

It fits the concept of a complete copy, as opposed to a branch, if you prefer to believe in it. No one can yet refute such speculation with conclusive proof of the correct cosmology.

If asking why is challenging the correctness, it's a futile question for lack of evidence to support your own belief since no physicist has the definitive answer. But if asking why is an intellectual pursuit for different points of view, it could be productive.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

When Nero created the nu-universe, the nu-universe came complete with it's own separate history going back to the very beginnings.

Why do you think so?

I'm curious about that myself. The intent was clearly not to do so; just to create a branching timeline. If Nero and Spock Prime emerged into the past of an alternate universe, it sort of all falls flat, because the point is that these are all the same characters we have grown to know and love.

Sure, the Kelvin looked more advanced than anything we'd seen in TOS, but what do people expect? They're not literally going to make it look like a TOS ship. Although, IMHO, the Kelvin was entirely in line with the technology of the TOS era. There's really very little about it that doesn't mesh.

 

[RoJoHen]

When Nero created the nu-universe, the nu-universe came complete with it's own separate history going back to the very beginnings.

Why do you think so?

I'm curious about that myself. The intent was clearly not to do so; just to create a branching timeline. If Nero and Spock Prime emerged into the past of an alternate universe, it sort of all falls flat, because the point is that these are all the same characters we have grown to know and love.

And they still can be. Let's say you're in the nu-Universe and hit the "Rewind" button. What happens before the Kelvin is destoryed? What happens before the wormhole opens and Nero's ship pops through? Does the universe suddenly blink out of existence, or does it continue backward?

I would think of it as more of a duplicate past. As soon as the alternate universe is created, it gets its own copy of the original timeline up until that point...if that makes any sense.