It continues, of course. Why wouldn't it?
I've got a better idea: One road diverges into two roads. If cars from those two roads move back along them, they can meet each other when they come to a point before the road has diverged.
Prime Universe time travel and the new timeline
- Thread starter alpha_leonis
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It continues, of course. Why wouldn't it?
I've got a better idea: One road diverges into two roads. If cars from those two roads move back along them, they can meet each other when they come to a point before the road has diverged.
Exactly, this is ALL speculative, since Trek-style time travel is not among the common technologies of our current day and age
Hence, we have to fall back on logic and common sense (as far as we can). Personally, I find it hard to believe that the universe's very structure would be at risk from the actions of individual time travellers - no "destroy the universe through paradoxes" that got Dr Brown so het up in the BTTF films. The universe is big, powerful and big (and very large) - there would be compensatory forces to protect itself.
Thinking about it, branching timelines and parallel quantum realities may be different sides of the same coin. If the people Worf found during his adventure each resonated with a different quantum signature in their present time, then their assorted histories (while resembling each other in many ways) would nonetheless resonate with a different quantum signature. Hence, even if two different Kirks went back to 1986 and hung out in San Francisco they might not see each other, since their respective realities exist on a different quantum plane.
In this regard, a timeline can both branch AND have the split universe's history be independent from the parent timeline - although to all intents and purposes, it IS a parallel universe/timeline now.
Mr. Laser Beam is correct. That's how the Department of Temporal Investigations novel series, written by Christopher, goes. He incorporated real-life known/theoretical physics, which canon Star Trek time travel is more or less compatible with, into his explanations of time travel in the DTI series. Other Star Trek novel authors have utilized his development of time travel as well.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Watching_the_Clock
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Forgotten_History
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/The_Collectors
Specifically for this thread, as I understand things, reality is like one massive river. It can split into multiple branches (a spontaneous alternate timeline or an alternate timeline created by time travel) or a branch can rejoin (time-traveling characters restoring their "proper" version of history). You can travel upstream and encounter people from other streams as well.
Look at it this way: think of when Quinn briefly brought Voyager from 2372 to the Big Bang in progress in VOY - "Death Wish". Now think of ENT - "Storm Front", when Jonathan Archer and the crew of the Enterprise found themselves in an altered 1944. Did the Na'kuhl's actions that chronologically occurred after 1944 erase Voyager's unrelated presence at the Big Bang?
I grant, though, that future Star Trek producers probably won't know about Christopher's novels and will make their own rules of time travel in Star Trek canon.
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As we can tell from Admiral Marcus' desk, both the Phoenix and Enterprise NX-01 existed in the JJ-verse. So, I'm of the mind that both the Prime Universe and JJ-verse share the same history until the Kelvin is attacked by Nero. So, if Captain Kirk were to travel to 2063 Bozeman, Montana, he'd find Riker and Troi's drunk ass helping out Cochrane with a futuristic Starfleet ship in orbit. If Kirk dug around in San Francisco, he'd find Data's head buried.
I'm not too sure how it would work out if he went back to the 60s and found Captain Christopher or went back to 1986 to hunt humpback whales. I'm assuming there'd be two Kirks and two Spocks, or maybe they'd be integrated into their Prime selves, kind of the way Picard leaving the Nexus became the Picard trapped under the rocks. That also leaves the possibility that when nuKirk leaves the 20th century, he could "jump the tracks" so to speak and wind up in the Prime Universe and oldKirk in the nu-verse.
I'm not too sure how it would work out if he went back to the 60s and found Captain Christopher or went back to 1986 to hunt humpback whales. I'm assuming there'd be two Kirks and two Spocks, or maybe they'd be integrated into their Prime selves, kind of the way Picard leaving the Nexus became the Picard trapped under the rocks. That also leaves the possibility that when nuKirk leaves the 20th century, he could "jump the tracks" so to speak and wind up in the Prime Universe and oldKirk in the nu-verse.
If they could "jump the tracks" (nice term BTW) between the Prime and Nu timelines, then it stands to reason that they could jump between some of the other numerous timelines as well (albeit unintentionally). However, this does not seem to happen as our heroes always end up in their own "present". Clearly there is something tying them to their own timestream, and the "quantum signature" thingy is as good an explanation as any. 
As regards the models on Marcus' desk, there's always the option to interpret them as just that: Models, either of historic starships, planned starships in R&D, or even plain old toy starships!
As regards the models on Marcus' desk, there's always the option to interpret them as just that: Models, either of historic starships, planned starships in R&D, or even plain old toy starships!
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Only if you believe that changes to the past in one specific timeline propagate into its future. You're mixing metaphors because you can't have that and branching timelines unless branches are identical from that point forward (so what's the point?). Additionally, parallel timelines (tracks) will not result in your whale scenario.
If they could "jump the tracks" (nice term BTW) between the Prime and Nu timelines, then it stands to reason that they could jump between some of the other numerous timelines as well (albeit unintentionally). However, this does not seem to happen as our heroes always end up in their own "present". Clearly there is something tying them to their own timestream, and the "quantum signature" thingy is as good an explanation as any.
That's not entirely accurate, however, since Spock and Nero both jumped the tracks and ended up in the alternate timeline (granted, they also CREATED the alternate timeline, but that's beside the point). It'd be interesting to see where Spock Prime ended up if he went back in time from 2259A (little Back to the Future Part II reference for ya... you're welcome
) before Nero's incursion, then went forward again. Would he go back to nuKirk's present/future, or would he end up in the old Kirk/Picard timeline?
Well, I guess technically that could be an option, but it seems like you're reaching. The intent of having those models there seems clear especially if we take into account the branching timeline concept proposed when ST09 was released and the fact that ST09 also had an Enterprise shout-out.
It'd be interesting to see where Spock Prime ended up if he went back in time from 2259A (little Back to the Future Part II reference for ya... you're welcome
If Spock Prime travelled from 2259A, back to some time before the divergence (2233), he'd create a third timeline. And not only that, when the 'original' Spock Prime appeared in the 2233 of that third timeline, a FOURTH timeline would be created.
I must admit that I hadn't really spent any time thinking about this. But yes, for example, logically some version of Data's head must still exist buried beneath San Francisco in both universes. I doubt that the fact that there isn't a nuData to travel back in time doesn't mean that the Prime Data's head simply vanished when the timeline was split. It would simply create a replica head. The event that precipitated the head being there in the first place pre-dates the universe split.
It makes my head hurt to think about it, but I s'pose realistically it also means that things like Gabriel Bell etc did go down the original way, as (again) Sisko travelling back in time pre-dates the universe split.
Anything that happens chronologically before the USS Kelvin has to be assumed to be the same in both universes, including temporal incursions from Prime universe counterparts. Because both universes were the same universe right up until the Kelvin incident, that sp all that pre-Kelvin history would simply migrate to the new universe.
It makes my head hurt to think about it, but I s'pose realistically it also means that things like Gabriel Bell etc did go down the original way, as (again) Sisko travelling back in time pre-dates the universe split.
Anything that happens chronologically before the USS Kelvin has to be assumed to be the same in both universes, including temporal incursions from Prime universe counterparts. Because both universes were the same universe right up until the Kelvin incident, that sp all that pre-Kelvin history would simply migrate to the new universe.
I have no problem believing that. Voyager at the Big Bang, Picard at the primordial soup, Sisko as Gabriel Bell, Quark, Rom and Nog as the Roswell aliens... all still there.
It would be pretty neat if they did a movie Back to the Future II style where Kirk and co. have to go back in time and avoid their future/alternate selves while completing some new objective.
I disagree with that. The timelines diverge the day Kirk was born. anything that happened before that and that includes the whales is totally unchanged.
If you believe in a splittable timeline then of course Old Spock would continue to exist! He's simply travelled back through a time tunnel much the same way that you or I would cross the street and forge a new path through the grassy verge.
The trouble with both timelines (indeed, more than those two as there are numerous examples of alternate timelines throughout Star Trek) sharing a common history is that there would be relics from other timelines scattered throughout, as a result of other time travel adventures. Indeed Star Trek's past would be a virtual dumping ground for artifacts that had no causal business being in that reality!
The trouble with both timelines (indeed, more than those two as there are numerous examples of alternate timelines throughout Star Trek) sharing a common history is that there would be relics from other timelines scattered throughout, as a result of other time travel adventures. Indeed Star Trek's past would be a virtual dumping ground for artifacts that had no causal business being in that reality!
Okay, riddle me this: How would it happen that primeSpock would not exist after the split?
When the USS Defiant traveled back in time and arrived in the Mirror Universe, did it branch the MU? The Abramsverse has to have been an already existing parallel universe. Spock didn't try to undue what Nero did, unlike say Picard trying to undue what the Borg did in FC or any of the other many examples of characters having to fix botched time travel events.
I didn't think it did. IMHO, the Defiant's arrival in the MU was part of what was supposed to happen all along.
Spock couldn't undo what Nero did. That would literally be impossible.
He obviously can't reach the prime timeline ever again (so it would be impossible for him to, for example, stop Nero from ever going back in the first place), and if he went back to the divergence point and tried anything there, he wouldn't undo the Abrams timeline - just create a *third* one.
The reason why it was possible for Picard and crew to undo the Borg damage in ST:FC was because they could follow the Borg back in time (the time portal opened by the Borg sphere was still open) and take care of things from there. There's no way for Spock to reach his own timeline - it's forever cut off from him.
Who's to say that it didn't? The duology merely followed the branch containing the Defiant.
It wouldn't. Prime Spock exists in both timelines.
Also, if Spock were to try to destroy Nero before he could blow up the Kelvin, he would be unsuccessful for a multitude of reasons.
First: Nothing in the 23rd century could stand a chance against the Narada.
Second: He can't go forward to the 24th century to get advanced ships or weaponry, because, if he traveled forward from 2233A, it would be from THAT future, not the future he's from (technically, he could bring the Vengeance back in time, but he'd have to get it away from Admiral Marcus and that might turn Marcus against the Vulcans as well). Assuming the militarization of Starfleet continued on from Nero's incursion, Spock could destroy the Narada, but it would create a third timeline in the process.
Third: As above, if Spock were able to destroy the Narada as it exited the black hole, the Kelvin would be witness to it and would also change the future.
So, either way, Spock has no options but to live his life in the alternate timeline. As Doc Brown said, "I'm sorry, but I'm afraid you're stuck here!"
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