Prime Directive Vs The Golden Rule

[Plutodawn]

Federation is constantly getting tossed into wars, often due to bad diplomacy, bad reputation (Romulan survivors instantly implicated the Federation's duplicity, they knew the Federation well) or just outright Arrogance (Picard annoying Q to the point that he threw the Borg on them, Archer's Heavy Handed early approach to the Xindi).

Worst of all, it has a central ethic that nobody seemed to of liked, The Prime Directive. Basically, you can't command a StarFleet ship unless you violate this clause in one casd, a week later stare up at the ceiling talking about why the rules are in place, and the necessity of letting lesser people die because they aren't as awesome or sparkly as you are.

Federation is basically a socialist empire, in expansion, lacking the older philosophy of the golden rule.... unless your a human descendant, Pre-Federation population, in which case, they are gonna interfere with you like it or not, as it is your God given right to be poked eith a stick by sone arrogant federation captain stopping by on a visit.

Seriously, other expansionistic socialistic states who didn't care for The Golden Rule have and are currently dying off. They tend to lead towards a spectrum on one end of totalitarianism, like the Soviet and Maoist Empire, or towards Social Democracies, that smoother descent, enforce poverty through social engineering, oppress religion (sweden has a religious refugee problem, chrustians fleeing to Finland), while inviting war and violence, and are prone to population decline, and technological devolution, because it becomes increasingly difficult to keep creative ingenuity and a fossilized, closed social econpmic system together. The latter must stagnant the former, or they must divorce and remain non-cooperative.

Federation has a few advantages over the modern world economy that keeps the population afloat.... replicators. You can replicate food, water, many medicines, shelter..... but you can't escape population density strain. They do expand and terraform.... but for how long can this last?

Currency still exists, and where this exist, you have people like the Ferengi who have every good reason to be rightfully appauled by The Federation's Prime Directive, watching from orbit and giggling after a civilization dies off from a easily solved plague, moving in, taking now empty cities- I remember Riker pretty much saying this in regards to the clone society dying off. Federation let this happem to alot of people in sone twisted Social Darwinism, but tried to keep smug in keeping their hands clean, watvhing them die.

What are the effects of this ethic on the Federation as a whole? By default, turns them unempathetic. What keeps a rich man from applying the Prime Directive one a poor population within the federation, who need medicines on the market but can't be replicated due to complexity? Likely no Charities in a society that scoffs at the Golden Rule, and denounces money, even though everyone clearly still has need to work, or else there be no waitresses to serve though ungrateful sexist federation boozehounds in every bar in the San Francisco Metropolitan Area. I'm sure they did that purely out of personal charity, busting tables!

No, in truth, absolutely no reason for charity in the federarion, the Ethos of the Federation runs very much against this, and whenever a Captain breaks with the Prime Directive, going for The Golden Rule, they are treated like they just bused a bunch of Jews into a concentration camp.... "How dare you save those people out of good hearted compassion, they are a bunch of incompetanrs who needed to die for their own good. Extinction is good for their mental health! We don't want the Federation to go running around on Good Will missions!"

So in the end, everyone just comes to realize the Federation really, really sucks. The new Star Trek Movie series, as well as Enterprise shows us that nobody likes the Federation at all. Romulans abdolutely detest the Federation to the point of spending the last big of energy they have on survival, on blowing us up. They really, really don't like us as a result.

Same for the Temporal Cold War..... populations in the future come to hate the Federation so much, many factions decide it is best just to wipe the Federation out from History. Enterprise also eludes to the fact that in either the 29th or 31st century, Federation is no more. Either was conquered, or joined some larger group, one unwilling to carry on the Federation legacy of constantly pissing off every neighbor, and dicking over lesser civilizations by watching as they due off, then moving in for the gains like vultures.

They tried to act athiestic, but held to that stupud idea, The Prime Directive, through blind faith. Like it was going to save the day.They only applied it when it benifited them, and I have no doubt the Ferengi had to move in and supply crucial aid to many societies behind the scene, for a price- but you know what, not going extinct is worth it.

Federation treated others like crap, and in the end likely fell because it started to become apparent to the lower classes that the Federation started apllying the logic of The Prime Directive on them too. Who would want to keep the Federation around then? Sonething, good or bad, did the Federation in eventually, enough to the point they decided resurrecting it's former identity wasn't worthwhile.

 

[Jedi Marso]

The Prime Directive, as I've always understood it, was more about protecting developing cultures from potentially destroying themselves (and maybe others) with technologies they were not socially ready to handle.

There seemed to be two linchpins before the Federation would initiate First Contact with a developing culture:
1. A single world government
2. Warp capable travel or the equivalent, such as the safe use of anti-matter for power generation, etc.

On that basis, some of the decisions made during the various series made perfect sense, while other stories were just nonsensical. For example, why NOT transport some primitives to another world before theirs suddenly became uninhabitable? It's not as if you had to transport them AND give them higher technology- just move them somewhere similar and viable, go hands off, and let their culture and species continue to develop.

As for not feeding and/or curing the masses of primitive planets, that DOES make some sense in the context of the Prime Directive, UNLESS they manage to help out on the sly, with the recipients of their 'help' not knowing the were being helped. However, providing that help, even anonymously, robs the indigenous population of the benefits derived from solving their own problems and advancing themselves from the experience. Part of our own climb 'up the long ladder' of technological and sociological progress has had to do with fighting our own wars, developing our own tech, and learning how to feed large populations and cure our own maladies. Necessity is the mother of all innovation and invention. Deprive another species of that, and you deprive them of the means to stand among the Federation as equal partners.

Remember, it's a long road, getting from there to here. You gotta have faith of the heart.

 

[Prax]

I think we see the crews on the various shows hold well to the golden rule. It's usually the captains who make some seemingly asinine decisions, like Picard in "Symbiosis." The basic idea of the Prime Directive being a philosophy of not interfering with civilizations that don't yet know about space travel, and other species, makes sense to me, but the way they often use "non interference" as an excuse not to help people is awful.

I imagine that in the Trek universe, it would be like the real world, where it's not the Federation, or Starfleet that effectively administers humanitarian aid, or other ways of helping those in need; it's regular people/non governmental organizations who have a positive impact in the world.

I don't think a government(or corporation) can do anything other than expand in power and by necessity, have growth.

 

[Shawnster]

The Prime Directive started out as a good and sound principle to follow for Starfleet. It looks like it was perverted and twisted (or changed and evolved... ) over 100 years between Kirk and Picard.

In TOS the Prime Directive was explicitly stated in "Bread and Circuses."

SPOCK: Then the Prime Directive is in full force, Captain?
KIRK: No identification of self or mission. No interference with the social development of said planet.
MCCOY: No references to space, or the fact that there are other worlds, or more advanced civilisations.

There we go. Simple and succinct. Nothing against interfering on the sly. We see the Enterprise specifically assigned to interfere. Their mission in "The Paradise Syndrome" was to divert the asteroid before it hit the planet. They weren't responding to a distress call or were swayed by any appeal. From the start of the episode it was clear what they were planning.

Further, they beamed down all the time to these pre-warp civilizations. As long as they did not identify themselves as beings from another world and that there were other alien civilizations out there, they were free to help.

It appears from TOS that the intent of the "non-interference" directive was to prevent Starfleet from sticking it's nose in where it didn't belong. Don't try to overthrow an alien government simply because their way of life was contrary with Federation values. Don't interfere with their elections or leadership.

Like today. The ideal is that the United States doesn't interfere with the internal workings of Russia or Jordan or Lybia or whatever. Yes, they do attempt to do so clandestinely, but the image presented is that everyone is allowed to live their own life the way they see fit. Yes, the Federation (or the United States) is there to help in case of disasters or such. Overall, though, your world is your world (or nation or government).

By the 24th Century this "non-interference" directive changed to include ANY interference, including unobserved and undetected interference. TNG's "Pen Pals" is, on the surface, the exact opposite of TOS's "The Paradise Syndrome." Picard was dead set on NOT saving Drema IV despite the fact he could do so without revealing their existence to the pre-warp civilization.

 

[Prax]

Interesting...

Maybe Picard was just radically zealous for his religion-Prime Directivism.

 

[Nyotarules]

Something happened with Starfleet bureaucrats to make the Prime Directive mean to let people die and suffer, either that or Picard was a sadist and should have been removed from his chair.

 

[1001001]

It's all completely pointless anyway.

Just by being there, they've "interfered". Simply their presence, interacting with people, etc. There's no way to know how that plays out in the future.

Sure they're minimizing the influence (they think) by avoiding disclosures about space and so forth, but if it's strict non-interference they're after, we should never contact any pre-warp civilization ever about anything.

 

[Kor]

I like the directive from the Star Wreck parody novels: "Always put everything back exactly where you found it" or something like that. It seems quite sensible, especially in comparison to the monster that the Prime Directive became in later Trek.

Kor

 

[Mojochi]

The Prime Directive, as I've always understood it, was more about protecting developing cultures from potentially destroying themselves (and maybe others) with technologies they were not socially ready to handle.

The prime directive as I understand it, in both the TOS & TNG variant, is 2-fold. First, to protect civilizations from being polluted by alien interference or influence, and secondly, to protect the Federation from becoming embroiled in the internal matters of a civilization. I agree that, to its detriment, it eventually came to be defined as being about not taking any role whatsoever in the development or even continuation/protection of civilizations, which seems to devalue the idea that intelligent life is worth preserving or even discovering at all. Why go looking for something, if most likely you can't be involved with it in any way anyhow?

 

[Longinus]

I'm sure there were some good points about the Prime Directive here, but I really couldn't get past that description of Sweden as some dystopian hellhole which enforces poverty and oppresses religion...

 

[Nyotarules]

I'm sure there were some good points about the Prime Directive here, but I really couldn't get past that description of Sweden as some dystopian hellhole which enforces poverty and oppresses religion...

Which explains why all those Middle Eastern refugees were fleeing there in their droves....

 

[Shawnster]

The prime directive as I understand it, in both the TOS & TNG variant, is 2-fold. First, to protect civilizations from being polluted by alien interference or influence, and secondly, to protect the Federation from becoming embroiled in the internal matters of a civilization. I agree that, to its detriment, it eventually came to be defined as being about not taking any role whatsoever in the development or even continuation/protection of civilizations, which seems to devalue the idea that intelligent life is worth preserving or even discovering at all. Why go looking for something, if most likely you can't be involved with it in any way anyhow?

There you go. Protect the pre-warp civilization from becoming polluted. We limit what we tell children based upon their age and maturity. This protects them and allows them to grow and develop naturally. Adults still interfere and may do so in ways the child is completely unaware of. This same principle originally applied with the Prime Directive. The asteroid in "Paradise Syndrome" was intended to be deflected without the native population even being aware of such a thing.

Sometimes the Prime Directive was ignored without it even being an issue. "Miri" is a good example. Pre-warp civilization. Enterprise interferes in the natural development of the planet. Of course, part of that was because the landing party was infected with the life prolongation virus. Still, I doubt they would have left the children to suffer and die off.

 

[Longinus]

Sometimes the Prime Directive was ignored without it even being an issue. "Miri" is a good example. Pre-warp civilization. Enterprise interferes in the natural development of the planet. Of course, part of that was because the landing party was infected with the life prolongation virus. Still, I doubt they would have left the children to suffer and die off.

Besides, in 'Miri' the planet was an exact duplicate of Earth, so there's no fucking way that that was a natural development anyway.

But yeah, in TOS it seems the prime directive was not so strict as in TNG era. Perhaps something horrible happened to those worlds Kirk messed with and the scope of the PD was widened as a result?

 

[Plutodawn]

Hmmm.... Natural Development.... that's a remarkably abstract concept. If you put people on a replica earth (I honestly can't recall this episode right now, just saying as a idea) who is it deciding if a population on a "naturally occurring planet" is any less "deserving" of Prime Directive "Protections" than a equally ignorant population on a artificial planet. How would either know any different?

What if we find the Q got bored and made all the planets in the universe, and that we are all artificial? It comes down to subjective perspective then, and any syllogism you press for none interference can likewise yield to interference, and vice versa. I think any 4th grader can bust out of the binding logic of the Prime Directive and find plenty of reasons why it is a aweful philosophy. I'm surprised they can teach advance mathematics to little kids in the trek universe, and not one of them manage to notice the founding doctrine of their civilization is rotten to the core.

Notice in Andromeda, Roddenberry's alternative universe, Dylan Hunt didn't act in any way or form compatible with the ideals of The Prime Directive. He stuck his nose in everywhere. Liked nothing more than to interfere, managed to still look the good guy.

I recall a episode in TNG, just can't remember which, it was either Picard or Word bragging to some gatekeeper AI how the Federation gladly sat around and watched 29-30 civilizations die.

Federation was always self righteous, full of shit. We shouldn't be surprise it had such a hard time putting together a coalition against the Dominion, too many states sat around laughing watching The Federation get kicked to the ground, a few even joined in with the Dominion. Never occurred to anyone that maybe the Federation's attitude to others, and crap diplomacy, was the cause. Diplomacy was their main engine of expansion.... not surprising many societies cooled to the Federation over time seeing it grow massive but remain sadistic or indifferent.

I honestly think at times it was the Ferengi behind the scenes holding everything together. They provided a essential outlet against the seismic forces of the federation.

The Federation created paradise, but they, also created the serpent. I'm so very glad to know the federation ends eventually. They need to make a awesome movie series focused on the collapse, seeing the characters talk about what lead them to the end, as Allied Forces press into the Federation interior, destroying fleet after fleet.



And the swipe at Sweden is hardly incorrect, everything factually correct, check the facts. One area Roddenberry and I detest in equal vigor, is our shared disgust of Nietzschean philosophy, and Sweden almost a century ago incorporated his ideas into the state legal system. I'm naturally cautious in dealing with them. You want socialism, then point to Norway and Finland- they don't produce the social problems in regards to freedom of religion and freedom of conscious that Sweden does, and neither are as imperialistic in forcing their values on others like Swedes are. They also have more balanced outlooks in regards to maintaining their society and economy.

 

[Shawnster]

It wasn't the natural vs. artificial nature of the planet that affected whether the inhabitants were worthy of help or interference. Yonada was artificial.

TOS - they would help but not hinder. The goal was not to squelch or forcibly control another civilization. Give them a hand up but don't tell them or force them on how to live their lives.

TNG - nope, don't help. Don't touch. Be glad the orders aren't to not even look. Do not interfere in any way.

You may be right in that something disastrous happened. Some civilization destroyed by the "help" Starfleet gave.

 

[Longinus]

Hmmm.... Natural Development.... that's a remarkably abstract concept. If you put people on a replica earth (I honestly can't recall this episode right now, just saying as a idea) who is it deciding if a population on a "naturally occurring planet" is any less "deserving" of Prime Directive "Protections" than a equally ignorant population on a artificial planet. How would either know any different?

What if we find the Q got bored and made all the planets in the universe, and that we are all artificial? It comes down to subjective perspective then, and any syllogism you press for none interference can likewise yield to interference, and vice versa. I think any 4th grader can bust out of the binding logic of the Prime Directive and find plenty of reasons why it is a aweful philosophy. I'm surprised they can teach advance mathematics to little kids in the trek universe, and not one of them manage to notice the founding doctrine of their civilization is rotten to the core.

Notice in Andromeda, Roddenberry's alternative universe, Dylan Hunt didn't act in any way or form compatible with the ideals of The Prime Directive. He stuck his nose in everywhere. Liked nothing more than to interfere, managed to still look the good guy.

I recall a episode in TNG, just can't remember which, it was either Picard or Word bragging to some gatekeeper AI how the Federation gladly sat around and watched 29-30 civilizations die.

Federation was always self righteous, full of shit. We shouldn't be surprise it had such a hard time putting together a coalition against the Dominion, too many states sat around laughing watching The Federation get kicked to the ground, a few even joined in with the Dominion. Never occurred to anyone that maybe the Federation's attitude to others, and crap diplomacy, was the cause. Diplomacy was their main engine of expansion.... not surprising many societies cooled to the Federation over time seeing it grow massive but remain sadistic or indifferent.

I honestly think at times it was the Ferengi behind the scenes holding everything together. They provided a essential outlet against the seismic forces of the federation.

The Federation created paradise, but they, also created the serpent. I'm so very glad to know the federation ends eventually. They need to make a awesome movie series focused on the collapse, seeing the characters talk about what lead them to the end, as Allied Forces press into the Federation interior, destroying fleet after fleet.



And the swipe at Sweden is hardly incorrect, everything factually correct, check the facts. One area Roddenberry and I detest in equal vigor, is our shared disgust of Nietzschean philosophy, and Sweden almost a century ago incorporated his ideas into the state legal system. I'm naturally cautious in dealing with them. You want socialism, then point to Norway and Finland- they don't produce the social problems in regards to freedom of religion and freedom of conscious that Sweden does, and neither are as imperialistic in forcing their values on others like Swedes are. They also have more balanced outlooks in regards to maintaining their society and economy.

Whatever you're smoking, don't.

 

[Tosk]

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[Tracy Trek]

I'm sure there were some good points about the Prime Directive here, but I really couldn't get past that description of Sweden as some dystopian hellhole which enforces poverty and oppresses religion...

I'm afraid I don't get this reference.

 

[Nyotarules]

I just finished the Star Trek novel Strangers from the sky yesterday, the idea behind the Prime Directive is a Vulcan concept. It touches on this subject from the perspective of the alien world (Earth) that is being observed during turbulent times. One of the questions to the Vulcans 'what gave you the right to watch us destroy ourselves' as if humanity would have appreciated the interference. Chances are the nations would unite together to try and destroy any alien assistance or try to use such assistance to gain the upper hand on their human enemies.
The Federation is not there to police the galaxy, that does not even work in our real world. (The rest of the world does not appreciate Western interference in its affairs or being the political football of the USA and Russia since WW2). I do not believe the Federation should have assisted the Bajoran - Cardessian war, which side do you assist? An ultra religious, caste based society or a military dictatorship? Do you choose the Star Trek 24th century versions of Saudi Arabia or North Korea?
HOWEVER I do not go for Picard's do nothing when folks are going to die from extraordinary causes, I hope he is never promoted to the Admirality.

 

[VulcanMindBlown]

I'm sorry, I have a problem understanding the questions we are posing here...

Are we comparing and contrasting the Golden Rule and the Prime Directive???!