Preference for StarShip Battles portrayed at Accurate Distances or Up Close like in the Age of Sail?

[Sgt_G]

The fleet warps in to the edge of the system, maybe even the Oort Cloud out!
Your launch say... 1000 torpedos (big fleet) the torpedoes acclerate to near lightspeed, then coast in. Depending on the distance, take a few hours to get there. aoubt 15 seconds before they hit, they come alive, and acclerate to target, ether updated by the ship, or if jammed, there own guidance. Boom. then you warp in and clean up!

In the game Star Fleet Battles, photons and disruptors have a limited range -- still tens of thousands of kilometers -- so this idea doesn't work.

However, comma, the game also has drones (missiles), and they have a special long-range drone that do work exactly like that.

 

[Timo]

A selection, there are several others.

True, but Chang and the Borg Sphere supposedly fall in the shields-down-by-default, "demolition shot" category.

Not that torps alone couldn't do the job, by any means: four torps and no beams seems to be what kills that D-7 in "Way of the Warrior". But fights where phaser fire mixed with torpedo fire culminates in a coup de grace torpedo firing? Neither Chang nor the Borg Sphere were deprived of their shields by preceding death ray fire.

Using a mixture of means seems to be fine as such, and indeed Kirk used phasers and torps more or less point blank against Khan in ST2. His technical coup de grace shot was with phasers into the nacelle, but he could equally well have done that with that torpedo of his that neatly destroyed Khan's torpedo launcher, with zero collateral damage... The preference for beams being used first and torps next is the thing I'm not seeing evidence for.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Spot261]

True, but Chang and the Borg Sphere supposedly fall in the shields-down-by-default, "demolition shot" category.

Not that torps alone couldn't do the job, by any means: four torps and no beams seems to be what kills that D-7 in "Way of the Warrior". But fights where phaser fire mixed with torpedo fire culminates in a coup de grace torpedo firing? Neither Chang nor the Borg Sphere were deprived of their shields by preceding death ray fire.

Using a mixture of means seems to be fine as such, and indeed Kirk used phasers and torps more or less point blank against Khan in ST2. His technical coup de grace shot was with phasers into the nacelle, but he could equally well have done that with that torpedo of his that neatly destroyed Khan's torpedo launcher, with zero collateral damage... The preference for beams being used first and torps next is the thing I'm not seeing evidence for.

Timo Saloniemi

I'm not sue Changs' ship counted as a demolition job, my interpretation of that was you meant scenes where they destroy shuttles or completely depowered vessels/stations/satellites/whatever, whereas the BoP was a fully powered up and undamaged warship engaged in combat operations. Certainly nothing on screen tells us the Borg Sphere is unshielded other than the unreliable lack of shield effects. We know the E is initially, but not for how long, whether the spheres' shields are similarly affected, whether they are of the same nature, whether they are specially adapted in anticipation of the vortex or whether they've had long enough to recover.

 

[Timo]

I'm not sue Changs' ship counted as a demolition job, my interpretation of that was you meant scenes where they destroy shuttles or completely depowered vessels/stations/satellites/whatever, whereas the BoP was a fully powered up and undamaged warship engaged in combat operations.

True - but shieldless nevertheless, apparently, and not due to weapons fire. So it would be comparable to the demolition shots such as the one at the Lantree, in terms of the destructive firepower needed. Tactically, a phaser beam wasn't an option because the ship was invisible, but the superiority of a torpedo in delivering the final blow can't be established here exactly because a phaser beam was not an option.

Certainly nothing on screen tells us the Borg Sphere is unshielded other than the unreliable lack of shield effects. We know the E is initially, but not for how long, whether the spheres' shields are similarly affected, whether they are of the same nature, whether they are specially adapted in anticipation of the vortex or whether they've had long enough to recover.

True enough again. The E-E lost her shields exclusively because of vortex action, though, it seems - she wasn't badly hit in the actual fight, and the damage report seems to pertain to vortex travel only or there'd be wordings like "shields are still down". Could the Borg avoid that? (Would they wish to, in the model where they lured Picard into the past so that he could build Cochrane a working warp engine and kickstart the delicious Federation?)

In "Defiant", four quantum torpedoes blew some circuit breakers on a Cardassian ship. Here they finish off the entire Sphere. Perhaps that ought to be telling?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Spot261]

True - but shieldless nevertheless, apparently, and not due to weapons fire. So it would be comparable to the demolition shots such as the one at the Lantree, in terms of the destructive firepower needed. Tactically, a phaser beam wasn't an option because the ship was invisible, but the superiority of a torpedo in delivering the final blow can't be established here exactly because a phaser beam was not an option.



True enough again. The E-E lost her shields exclusively because of vortex action, though, it seems - she wasn't badly hit in the actual fight, and the damage report seems to pertain to vortex travel only or there'd be wordings like "shields are still down". Could the Borg avoid that? (Would they wish to, in the model where they lured Picard into the past so that he could build Cochrane a working warp engine and kickstart the delicious Federation?)

In "Defiant", four quantum torpedoes blew some circuit breakers on a Cardassian ship. Here they finish off the entire Sphere. Perhaps that ought to be telling?

Timo Saloniemi

A lucky shot.

 

[Henoch]

In Day of the Dove, Kirk finished off Kang's D7 with one blast of phasers; the ship fully disintegrated.

 

[Timo]

Quite true. And phasers seemed to be decisive against the weak Woden but also the playact-shielded big starships in "The Ultimate Computer", while torpedo spreads seldom achieved much even when multiple hits were scored, such as in "Elaan of Troyius".

In both weapon types, we can plead "variable yield" as we please, of course. But Kirk's demonstrated preference for phasers ought to speak for itself. Although preference is situation-dependent...

Facing targets of superior maneuverability, such as in "Elaan of Troyius" and "Journey to Babel", Kirk has primarily fought with torpedo spreads, as if that were a good opening move; phasers are the opening weapon when the Enterprise herself is the superior mover, such as in "Doomsday Machine" or "Ultimate Computer".

Different fighting styles for different commanders, with us merely seeing the Kirk Bias? Or different characteristics for the two weapon systems, dictating fleetwide fighting technique? Only spinoffs can tell. Nice to have DSC around, then...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[blssdwlf]

That's true of all energy beams projecting on a target, but the energy loss due to distance isn't nearly as bad as you think it is if it was coherent like a laser to begin with.

Oh, I'm not saying there is a huge loss of energy... only some loss. I was just stating that in-universe phasers are implied to deliver more damage and/or penetration at point-blank range.

DECKER: I made a mistake then. We were too far away. This time I'm going to hit it with full phasers at point-blank range.​

Or put it another way, Kirk's Enterprise can kill a Klingon or Romulan warship at BVR ranges but if they want to attempt to punch through a significantly tougher target (like the Doomsday Machine) they needed to get closer in with the phasers.

Quite true. And phasers seemed to be decisive against the weak Woden but also the playact-shielded big starships in "The Ultimate Computer", while torpedo spreads seldom achieved much even when multiple hits were scored, such as in "Elaan of Troyius".

Timo, I think you have that reversed on the Woden. M5 used full power photon torpedoes to destroy the Woden.

In the original FX, it was implied that the full-powered phasers used by M5 were fired at a distance resulting in crew loss and damage to the other unshielded starships. IMHO, if they had fired as close as the new CG FX show the ships would have exploded ala "Day of the Dove".

In "Elaan of Troyius", I thought the torpedo spread did significant damage to the fully shielded Klingon battlecruiser. A second volley probably would have finished her off. IMHO, Kirk used torpedoes because their warp power was wonky and they wouldn't have had full phasers with the shields reinforced with warp power and we know from "A Taste of Armageddon" that torpedoes use less power than full phasers....

Facing targets of superior maneuverability, such as in "Elaan of Troyius" and "Journey to Babel", Kirk has primarily fought with torpedo spreads, as if that were a good opening move; phasers are the opening weapon when the Enterprise herself is the superior mover, such as in "Doomsday Machine" or "Ultimate Computer".

In "Journey to Babel", Kirk fires phasers first (which missed) and then tries a spread of photon torpedoes. In "Elaan of Troyius", his first call is to ready the phaser crews when the Klingon warship makes it's first run.

Different fighting styles for different commanders, with us merely seeing the Kirk Bias? Or different characteristics for the two weapon systems, dictating fleetwide fighting technique? Only spinoffs can tell. Nice to have DSC around, then...

You're right - we don't have that many samples to establish a standard fleet-wide fighting style.

 

[Unicron]

To use a TNG example, I seem to recall the alternate Enterprise in "Yesterday's Enterprise" managed to inflict "moderate" damage to one BOP with its torpedo spread. Nothing too major, but this might have been the one later destroyed with the phaser volley. It's perhaps fair to say that with torpedoes, it's potentially easier to modify the warhead level (or at least equal to a phaser's power level), so there's that. There's also a few shots in the Dominion fleet battles where the Federation fighters seemed to be scoring some degree of strong damage against a few Cardassian ships, enough to at least damage their attitude control.

On a non-Trek level, I've been trying to remember how much Battletech used long range combat. Warships in that continuity are generally not the most maneuverable, and the capital scale weapons are the largest in existence (most weapons commonly found on ground units are scaled down versions of naval weapons) with a number dedicated to longer ranges. This doesn't completely rule out that the ships might get in closer if they need to maneuver or use weapons for that range, or even if something dramatic happens (like a ramming strike or a ship triggering its jump drive too close to an enemy vessel, though such events are generally rare). The Amaris Civil War might be considered a special case when it comes to capital warfare, in that it pitted the Star League Defense Force against the automated drones of the Space Defense System, which had originally been built to protect Terra alongside the SLDF. The SDS was intended to allow a handful of human crew to protect an entire system, and the warship drones proved very dangerous because the space normally used for crew was instead used for heavier arsenal. It was also programmed with the experience of many SLDF commanders, allowing it to predict and adapt to many of their tactics.

 

[drt]

His technical coup de grace shot was with phasers into the nacelle, but he could equally well have done that with that torpedo of his that neatly destroyed Khan's torpedo launcher, with zero collateral damage... The preference for beams being used first and torps next is the thing I'm not seeing evidence for.

It always seemed to me that phaser shot to the nacelle was a special effects error, the dialogue of the bridge scene seemed to indicate only torpedoes were being fired.

 

[Tau Ceti III]

Phasers gutted the nacelle, a torpedo then blew it completely off

 

[arch101]

About the only thing I really like about Nemesis is the battle scene. It evokes naval ships broadsiding each other, then having to come about for another. Instead of a constant shoot-em-up, it's choreographed as a series of encounters. There's like, 8 or 9 movements to the whole thing. Debatably the best big-ship battle of the Trek films.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

About the only thing I really like about Nemesis is the battle scene. It evokes naval ships broadsiding each other, then having to come about for another. Instead of a constant shoot-em-up, it's choreographed as a series of encounters. There's like, 8 or 9 movements to the whole thing. Debatably the best big-ship battle of the Trek films.

I concur, that was the only good part about that movie. The rest of it was hot garbage.

 

[blssdwlf]

On a non-Trek level, I've been trying to remember how much Battletech used long range combat. Warships in that continuity are generally not the most maneuverable, and the capital scale weapons are the largest in existence (most weapons commonly found on ground units are scaled down versions of naval weapons) with a number dedicated to longer ranges. This doesn't completely rule out that the ships might get in closer if they need to maneuver or use weapons for that range, or even if something dramatic happens (like a ramming strike or a ship triggering its jump drive too close to an enemy vessel, though such events are generally rare). .

Each space hex in aerotech was about 6500km wide so most of the time it was BVR combat unless you stacked onto the same hex as your target.

 

[Saturn0660]

In the game Star Fleet Battles, photons and disruptors have a limited range -- still tens of thousands of kilometers -- so this idea doesn't work.

However, comma, the game also has drones (missiles), and they have a special long-range drone that do work exactly like that.

I still have nightmares of UIM burnouts.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

WTF is up with ST: DSC Season 2 Final battles ultra close distance battles?

 

[tavor]

i think kamenriderblade has it right3) When your long & medium range sensors are damaged and you must get the vessel to be WVR of the target to make a reasonable shot ,
but i would substitute close in fire needed to overcome effects of enemy jamming of sensors (f22 and f35 fighters) as examples

 

[Kemaiku]

WTF is up with ST: DSC Season 2 Final battles ultra close distance battles?

Enterprise and Discovery had only just separated from transfering personnel when Section 31 warped out around them, closing them in before they could gain distance.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Enterprise and Discovery had only just separated from transfering personnel when Section 31 warped out around them, closing them in before they could gain distance.

While that's true, even the "Battle of the Binary Stars", everything was WVR by a good amount.

Most of the ships were so close that you can make out the details with your naked eye.

 

[David cgc]

Visual effects in Star Trek always have an element of the figurative (distances quoted in thousands of kilometers, while ships are seen to be, like, a kilometer and a half apart), but given the preponderance of fighters and the way Discovery and Enterprise were using each other as cover, it seems like the staging of this one was a little more literal than usual.