Predictions for Phase 2 of Star Trek

[William Gatsby]

Both great examples of movies/stories that work with one character, but... if that's what you're going to do, you might as well call it something else other than Star Trek, surely?

Not at all, really.

It's Star Trek, just done a different way.

From its very inception Star Trek was a show about a crew, on a ship, going places. Take away the crew, ship and the places to go and... would it even be recognisable as a Star Trek story?

Yes, that's one way to do Star Trek, but surely that's not the only allowable way to do it, is it?

And if the parameters are a maximum of two characters, then you have to allow creativity.

Insofar as being recognizable, yes to that as well.

Any of the characters in those scenarios would be a member of Starfleet doing something that a member of Starfleet would do. And all of the trappings would be totally recognizable. Uniforms, technology, terminology. Everything.

The only difference is that we're not on a ship with a crew and everything. No, we're telling a story with a maximum of two characters. But the setting would be completely in the world of Star Trek.

The franchise is capable of basically telling any kind of story, right. And as long as the setting is Star Trek (the world in which it's set) it's Star Trek, yes.

Talking elsewhere about this whole topic, another poster had an idea not dissimilar to an old movie called Enemy Mine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enemy_Mine_(film)

Pine Kirk and whatever alien stranded on a planet, learning to work together. But even then, if feels more like an idea suitable for an episode rather than a movie.

Yeah, that's where creativity comes in.

I personally wouldn't pick Enemy Mine, but it be could made to work. And when you say Enemy Mine, the first thing that came to mind was "Arena" and the Gorn, and green rubber suits. And so that's why I say nah.

Anything could be made to work though. Just get a story, set it in the world of Star Trek, and go.

I was thinking, something like The Martian you could do. There's a lot of characters in it, but something can be figured out with that...

One thing that comes to mind is Calypso. Yes, the Short Trek.

Basically, Star Trek could do the same thing, but based around one of the Kelvin characters.

I didn't think about that one. That could be cool. And yeah, do it in the Kelvin universe.

The Kelvin universe would be the best place for all of this. That's the remake place, the re-imagination place, so do all of the reimagining there. It would be kind of cool, I think.

Of course, I want everything to be Kelvin universe. Movies, Paramount+, everything.

After this Phase 2 at Paramount+ is over, make the next thing the Kelvin universe everywhere.

Jump up to The Next Generation if you want. A lot of people ask for that. So reimagine that in the Kelvin universe. Ditch the carpet on the bridge and make cooler looking uniforms and you're good.

I want to see a Kelvin universe Benjamin Sisko. Just him though, not the rest of DS9. I'll never get that, but it's what I'd like.

A Section 31 Kelvin universe show would be cool. And of course a Kevin universe Starfleet Academy show would easily work. Do a Kelvin universe Gary Seven show. It's all Star Trek.

 

[Mudd]

Not at all, really.

It's Star Trek, just done a different way.


Yes, that's one way to do Star Trek, but surely that's not the only allowable way to do it, is it?

And if the parameters are a maximum of two characters, then you have to allow creativity.

Insofar as being recognizable, yes to that as well.

Any of the characters in those scenarios would be a member of Starfleet doing something that a member of Starfleet would do. And all of the trappings would be totally recognizable. Uniforms, technology, terminology. Everything.

The only difference is that we're not on a ship with a crew and everything. No, we're telling a story with a maximum of two characters. But the setting would be completely in the world of Star Trek.

The franchise is capable of basically telling any kind of story, right. And as long as the setting is Star Trek (the world in which it's set) it's Star Trek, yes.


Yeah, that's where creativity comes in.

I personally wouldn't pick Enemy Mine, but it be could made to work. And when you say Enemy Mine, the first thing that came to mind was "Arena" and the Gorn, and green rubber suits. And so that's why I say nah.

Anything could be made to work though. Just get a story, set it in the world of Star Trek, and go.

I was thinking, something like The Martian you could do. There's a lot of characters in it, but something can be figured out with that...


I didn't think about that one. That could be cool. And yeah, do it in the Kelvin universe.

The Kelvin universe would be the best place for all of this. That's the remake place, the re-imagination place, so do all of the reimagining there. It would be kind of cool, I think.

Of course, I want everything to be Kelvin universe. Movies, Paramount+, everything.

After this Phase 2 at Paramount+ is over, make the next thing the Kelvin universe everywhere.

Jump up to The Next Generation if you want. A lot of people ask for that. So reimagine that in the Kelvin universe. Ditch the carpet on the bridge and make cooler looking uniforms and you're good.

I want to see a Kelvin universe Benjamin Sisko. Just him though, not the rest of DS9. I'll never get that, but it's what I'd like.

A Section 31 Kelvin universe show would be cool. And of course a Kevin universe Starfleet Academy show would easily work. Do a Kelvin universe Gary Seven show. It's all Star Trek.

The good news is that Pornhub abides. A more creative and satisfying use of resources than all of the above, and more intellectual to boot.

 

[FederationHistorian]

Yes, that's one way to do Star Trek, but surely that's not the only allowable way to do it, is it?

No, its not. Its unimaginative to think so and encourages formulaic thinking. We would not have had DS9 without outside the box thinking.

I didn't think about that one. That could be cool. And yeah, do it in the Kelvin universe.

Yes, it could be cool.

A variation could be, in the Kelvin universe, Jim Kirk is alone on the Enterprise. Its floating through space and the rest of the crew has abandoned ship for some reason.

Jim Kirk dealing with an outbreak of Tribbles. Kirk chases a bat throughout a ship. Kirk struggles to keep warm on the ship. Kirk rummages through the cargo bay. Kirk hallucinates previous people in life, ex his mom, or stepdad, or high school friends or peers from Starfleet Academy like Gary Mitchell and has a conversation with them. Kirk hallucinates the ship is being boarded by intruders. Kirk gets a first contact message and has an internal struggle to respond to it due to the situation on the ship. Kirk makes captain’s logs and listens to the logs of the other crew. Kirk has trouble sleeping. Kirk has a stomach ache caused by an alien bug and he had to find the right treatment in sickbay. And that is just scratching the surface.

The Kelvin universe would be the best place for all of this. That's the remake place, the re-imagination place, so do all of the reimagining there. It would be kind of cool, I think.

Of course, I want everything to be Kelvin universe. Movies, Paramount+, everything.

After this Phase 2 at Paramount+ is over, make the next thing the Kelvin universe everywhere.

Jump up to The Next Generation if you want. A lot of people ask for that. So reimagine that in the Kelvin universe. Ditch the carpet on the bridge and make cooler looking uniforms and you're good.

I want to see a Kelvin universe Benjamin Sisko. Just him though, not the rest of DS9. I'll never get that, but it's what I'd like.

A Section 31 Kelvin universe show would be cool. And of course a Kevin universe Starfleet Academy show would easily work. Do a Kelvin universe Gary Seven show. It's all Star Trek.

The Kelvin universe is definitely underrated. It deserves more exploration.

 

[fireproof78]

The franchise is capable of basically telling any kind of story, right. And as long as the setting is Star Trek (the world in which it's set) it's Star Trek, yes.

Years of debating DS9, Kelvin Trek, Discovery and Prodigy have demonstrated no they won't be accepted as Star Trek.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

Years of debating DS9, Kelvin Trek, Discovery and Prodigy have demonstrated no they won't be accepted as Star Trek.

Hyperbole, Mr Fireproof. Come on, you're better than that.

I think all of the above are embraced by the majority. It's just the minority that speaks louder.

 

[fireproof78]

Hyperbole, Mr Fireproof. Come on, you're better than that.

I think all of the above are embraced by the majority. It's just the minority that speaks louder.

If I didn't speak in hyperbole no one would take me seriously

 

[Lord Garth]

Things have changed with the film industry in 2023. Everything as we knew it for the last 15-20 years is ending. No one can really say what type of Star Trek film would work today until the cinematic landscape in general regains its bearings. It's too much in a state-of-flux right now.

Looks like the answer is Barbenheimer.

Barbie and Oppenheimer, both of which I'm seeing this week, are the biggest movies of 2023 and they're a clean break from sequels, prequels, spinoffs, reboots, remakes, and comic book movies. Meanwhile, all those other types of movies are bombing left and right.

So, you want to know what I think would be a successful Star Trek movie in this new type of situation? A movie about Gene Roddenberry getting Star Trek off the ground.

Otherwise, short of that, Star Trek's future in films is limited to TV Movies on Paramount+, where they'll be more forgiving. They're cutting back, but even in this case, that's still more forgiving. They might be cutting back on the TV end, but at least they can still get stuff made. Which is more than we can say about Star Trek on the Big Screen.

 

[FederationHistorian]

So, you want to know what I think would be a successful Star Trek movie in this new type of situation? A movie about Gene Roddenberry getting Star Trek off the ground.

That's a movie people would go and see.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

That's a movie people would go and see.

Finally we agree on something.

 

[Victoria]

What bothers me about Phase 2 is that once again there's talk about attracting new viewers/fans but how are you going to do that if the programmes appear on a streaming service that you are only going to be watching if you are already a fan? If you wanted to use Prodigy to "catch" children and turn them into the superfans of the future then it's got to be somewhere that children will come across it casually. The same applies to SFA. It seems to me that the studio is saying they have a particular intent but their actions don't match what they are saying.

 

[fireproof78]

What bothers me about Phase 2 is that once again there's talk about attracting new viewers/fans but how are you going to do that if the programmes appear on a streaming service that you are only going to be watching if you are already a fan? If you wanted to use Prodigy to "catch" children and turn them into the superfans of the future then it's got to be somewhere that children will come across it casually. The same applies to SFA. It seems to me that the studio is saying they have a particular intent but their actions don't match what they are saying.

Well, Prodigy was aired on Nickelodeon but that clearly didn't pan out. Paramount is trying to balance what all streaming services are fighting-how to draw new people in, while still have the huge variety of streaming platforms and getting subscriptions. It's like magazine drives all over again.

 

[Victoria]

Well, Prodigy was aired on Nickelodeon but that clearly didn't pan out. Paramount is trying to balance what all streaming services are fighting-how to draw new people in, while still have the huge variety of streaming platforms and getting subscriptions. It's like magazine drives all over again.

I'm in the UK and I don't understand what you mean by "magazine drives".

It's going to take several years to turn children into future ST buyers. Paramount seem to have given up very quickly. I suppose I feel that everything they are doing is very short term. They mess around their core audience. They don't make their programmes particularly accessible and they don't seem to have much of a plan.

 

[fireproof78]

I'm in the UK and I don't understand what you mean by "magazine drives".

That's ok. I'm old and when I was in school for fundraisers we would go door to door and sell maganize subscriptions.

It's going to take several years to turn children into future ST buyers. Paramount seem to have given up very quickly. I suppose I feel that everything they are doing is very short term. They mess around their core audience. They don't make their programmes particularly accessible and they don't seem to have much of a plan.

Well, they have a plan by committee. Make money fast and reach a larger audience. You can't do that without being patient.

 

[Victoria]

Well, they have a plan by committee. Make money fast and reach a larger audience. You can't do that without being patient.

Perhaps it's not a plan they lack so much as any credible idea of how to achieve it! Oh well. I'm beginning to feel that I've got enough Trek already and am losing interest in what might come up in the future.

 

[El Maestro]

The older I get and the more I observe how this industry seems to work (from an audience perspective) it seems to me that no one has any idea at all about how to build and sustain an audience, and that studios essentially gamble on lightning striking for something to work well enough...but...they also have no clear idea of what "success" means or looks like and when they do it seems like a moving target. No wonder the industry is in crisis!

 

[fireproof78]

The older I get and the more I observe how this industry seems to work (from an audience perspective) it seems to me that no one has any idea at all about how to build and sustain an audience, and that studios essentially gamble on lightning striking for something to work well enough...but...they also have no clear idea of what "success" means or looks like and when they do it seems like a moving target. No wonder the industry is in crisis!

Because they really don't. Especially as studios contracted, creating more and more dependence on tent poles rather than multiple smaller projects that might succeed and might fail.

I often reference back to Star Wars because its an interesting study in a smaller project expect to provide minor financial returns in case the larger project, Damnation Alley, underperforms.

Nowadays, it's all in on a project. If it underperforms then life is awful. So studios look for that lightning in a bottle and try to track trends to be successful. But, since there isn't consistency to what audiences will react to, yeah, they scramble, their balance sheets look messed up and they make changes that seem very odd from the outside.

 

[Scatter]

What's all this *flagship* and leading talk around SNW about? According to most reports/ITK talk I've seen, the show has a much smaller audience than both Picard and STD (even though the latter is aimed at a completely different demographic)...

PIC Season 1 also happens to be my favorite season of Kurtzman Trek, with DSC Season 1 as the immediate runner-up. So there you go.

Gahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha... aaaahhhhh... oh... wait. You're serious?

Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha...

Stranger Things
Game of Thrones
House of the Dragon
The Mandalorian
Black Mirror

No Star Trek show of the 21st Century has entered the public consciousness in a similar way to these shows.

BECAUSE IT'S ALL BEEN ABSOLUTE FUCKING HORSE SHIT!!! That's why. The point of your overall argument throughout this discussion about Trek as a general IP doesn't hold though because TOS & TNG are CULTURAL ICONS... actual icons, not just some sort of zeitgeist flash in the pan like the shows you listed either.

As for the wider discussion as a whole... I don't think the actual/perceived quality of whatever is produced is actually relevant atm. SNW will wrap after season 3. It really doesn't matter if it's complete horse shit, or if it's the single greatest season of tv ever made. It's done. The end. They've already announced season 2 of Prodigy will continue on some other platform. Nickelodean is owned by Paramount. It'll end up there if they can't sell it off elsewhere (only because of the cost already sunk on it), at which point it will wrap at season's end.

And that will be all she wrote. P+ is doomed, and Paramount won't be in a position to green light anything new - certainly not anything as costly as live action Trek - until the entire streaming market settles and finds a "new norm" (whatever that happens to be). Paramount will either see sense, close the service and lease out its back-catalogue to another provider; or, it'll keep sinking in good money after bad until it's bought outright by a bigger player like Amazon/Apple/Netflix (the latter makes the most sense, though is the weakest financially).

In the meantime, the most likely new Trek will be a movie; and for reasons which have been discussed at length throughout this thread, that's a massive long shot. You're basically hoping Quentin Tarantino pops his head up and says yeah, let's do this thing...

 

[Richard S. Ta]

Some incoherent nonsense.

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[Mudd]

What's all this *flagship* and leading talk around SNW about? According to most reports/ITK talk I've seen, the show has a much smaller audience than both Picard and STD (even though the latter is aimed at a completely different demographic)...

Gahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha... aaaahhhhh... oh... wait. You're serious?

Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha...

BECAUSE IT'S ALL BEEN ABSOLUTE FUCKING HORSE SHIT!!! That's why. The point of your overall argument throughout this discussion about Trek as a general IP doesn't hold though because TOS & TNG are CULTURAL ICONS... actual icons, not just some sort of zeitgeist flash in the pan like the shows you listed either.

As for the wider discussion as a whole... I don't think the actual/perceived quality of whatever is produced is actually relevant atm. SNW will wrap after season 3. It really doesn't matter if it's complete horse shit, or if it's the single greatest season of tv ever made. It's done. The end. They've already announced season 2 of Prodigy will continue on some other platform. Nickelodean is owned by Paramount. It'll end up there if they can't sell it off elsewhere (only because of the cost already sunk on it), at which point it will wrap at season's end.

And that will be all she wrote. P+ is doomed, and Paramount won't be in a position to green light anything new - certainly not anything as costly as live action Trek - until the entire streaming market settles and finds a "new norm" (whatever that happens to be). Paramount will either see sense, close the service and lease out its back-catalogue to another provider; or, it'll keep sinking in good money after bad until it's bought outright by a bigger player like Amazon/Apple/Netflix (the latter makes the most sense, though is the weakest financially).

In the meantime, the most likely new Trek will be a movie; and for reasons which have been discussed at length throughout this thread, that's a massive long shot. You're basically hoping Quentin Tarantino pops his head up and says yeah, let's do this thing...

Feel better now?

Decaf.

I was there when "cultural icon" TNG was a flash-in-the-pan destined for oblivion. The show was a shambling, poorly written cash grab and the whole first-run syndication dealie was doomed to early failure, as anyone who was awake and understood the TV business knew. Syndication was am admission that TNG wasn't good enough for any network to touch it. We were assured that in twenty years no one would remember the Bald Brit and his cute robot pal and that Kirk and Spock would have weathered the ages as the True Trek icons.

All of which was bullshit.

Cynicism and predicting failure are easy. They're stances that pass for sophisticated perception but are timid and weak. You can always find some buyers, though.

 

[Scatter]

Some incoherent nonsense

Other than having an apparently differing opinion on the quality of Kurtz-trek, what did I say above that is remotely far reaching? It's not a secret that Paramount have hired external research and marketing firms to review their streaming operation. It's also not a secret that at least one of those firms have advised Paramount to ditch the platform altogether.

The SNW having a smaller audience than Picard and Disco wasn't a bash, it's a simple statement of fact (as best we know it from trends etc). In fact, nothing I said was about Trek failing. I clearly stated that even if SNW S3 is the greatest season of TV ever it wouldn't matter.

And Servaux, I don't know why you're trying to make with the early TNG stuff. That it had doomsayers early on who were proved wrong matters how? Again, other than pointing out Richard S. Ta's argument was self defeating and why, I stayed away from commenting on the quality of Kurtz-trek.