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Pre-planned SF shows or...?

Perhaps future television productions could take a comic-book approach to storytelling, creating a series of pretty much self-contained arcs that last the course of several episodes with a different ending. Threads in that arc could either lead into a new arc or pretty much be left alone since the arc had closure.
 
Based on the way Babylon 5 turned out, I'd go with the pre-planned. I always thought it was really cool how they dropped various hints about how the series would end all the way back in the first season.

Or having extras wearing Ranger costumes walk around in the background of the Zocalo in early season one.
 
It all comes down to the talent of the writers. Either approach can work if the writers are good. An extremely detailed, pre-planned show will suck if the writers doing it can't handle the pacing, the structure and the characters.

Thank you, thank you, thank you for acknowledging that it's the talent of the people involved that makes the difference, rather than assuming that if you get the right formula, anyone connected enough to wangle a "producer" title can make it work. Now if only network executives could figure that out.


Perhaps future television productions could take a comic-book approach to storytelling, creating a series of pretty much self-contained arcs that last the course of several episodes with a different ending. Threads in that arc could either lead into a new arc or pretty much be left alone since the arc had closure.

Err, isn't that exactly what Heroes has been doing? Besides, the modern comic-book approach to storytelling, with finite story arcs, is somewhat influenced by the growing participation of TV and film writers in comics, so the cause and effect is kind of the other way around (since a single issue of a comic corresponds to maybe an act or two of a TV episode).

Of course, the self-contained arcs of comics are a response to the growing importance of trade paperbacks in the industry. Storylines are now plotted with their eventual reprint collections in mind. We're already starting to see an analogous process happening with regard to DVD releases of TV series; for instance, the animated series The Spectacular Spider-Man is subdivided into arcs of 3 to 4 episodes, just enough to fit together on one disc.
 
Perhaps future television productions could take a comic-book approach to storytelling, creating a series of pretty much self-contained arcs that last the course of several episodes with a different ending. Threads in that arc could either lead into a new arc or pretty much be left alone since the arc had closure.

Err, isn't that exactly what Heroes has been doing?

Err, wouldn't know. I don't watch Heroes or keep up with it. So I wouldn't have the necessary information to comment on that.

Besides, the modern comic-book approach to storytelling, with finite story arcs, is somewhat influenced by the growing participation of TV and film writers in comics, so the cause and effect is kind of the other way around (since a single issue of a comic corresponds to maybe an act or two of a TV episode).

Of course, the self-contained arcs of comics are a response to the growing importance of trade paperbacks in the industry. Storylines are now plotted with their eventual reprint collections in mind.

True and true.

Emphasis mine

We're already starting to see an analogous process happening with regard to DVD releases of TV series; for instance, the animated series The Spectacular Spider-Man is subdivided into arcs of 3 to 4 episodes, just enough to fit together on one disc.


I was thinking of a smaller scale, like that, of three or four episodes rather than an entire season (which I think is how Heroes does it, but I don't watch it so I can't really speak on it).
 
^^Heroes is divided into "volumes." The first volume was the entire first season, but for various reasons, the decision was made that subsequent volumes would be shorter. The second season was supposed to have two volumes, or possibly three, but the writers' strike cut the season short after the first volume. The third season has two volumes, and we're currently in the hiatus between them. (Indeed, long mid-season hiatuses are part of the reason for going to a two-volume format, so that audiences wouldn't get frustrated with waiting for a cliffhanger to be resolved.)
 
^^Heroes is divided into "volumes." The first volume was the entire first season, but for various reasons, the decision was made that subsequent volumes would be shorter. The second season was supposed to have two volumes, or possibly three, but the writers' strike cut the season short after the first volume. The third season has two volumes, and we're currently in the hiatus between them. (Indeed, long mid-season hiatuses are part of the reason for going to a two-volume format, so that audiences wouldn't get frustrated with waiting for a cliffhanger to be resolved.)

Oh, awesome. Thanks for the information.
 
I like a mix between the two, where each season is preplanned with potential story seeds for future seasons thrown into the mix. Much like what they do on series like Dexter and True Blood.
 
Isn't True Blood different, since it's based on the book series? Or does it (like Dexter post-season one) not follow the books that closely?
 
I think both work fine but I am less likely to watch science fiction that is not arc based or pre-planned to some extent nowadays. I'm kinda tired of the standalone shows where everything is neatly wrapped up in one episode.
 
Isn't True Blood different, since it's based on the book series? Or does it (like Dexter post-season one) not follow the books that closely?
I'm not entirely sure, honestly. I was simply using the television series as an example of what I was talking about: I like it when an entire season comprises a single story, and then future seasons/stories blossom from the seeds planted therein. So you get continuity and consistency, but you also get the satisfaction of seeing the end of the story, too, rather than being led on and on and on as in several other arc-based shows.
 
Serialization is nothing new. It is the standard for soap operas. As such, I have always thought the burden of proof was on the people who claimed that serialized stories are superior. And I've never thought I've seen many actual arguments, much less convincing ones, put forward. The proposition that stand alone stories are inferior is rather assumed, not defended. If it is objected that is not the intended proposition, well, it is the bbs default. If you don't make a different position known, then you're taking the default position.

Serialization in fact is so not new that we have a nineteenth century example to help us decide the question---Charles Dickens. Dickens published his novels as newspaper serials. His early novels were not preplanned and were very much on the fly, wending along in response to circulation (today, aka ratings.) His later novels had considerably more planning, though even they were being published before being finished. My inspection of the Dickens oeuvre is not particularly sophisticated (it's not even complete,) but my conviction is that Dickens' later novels are much better than the earlier ones.

The contrasting work of Wilkie Collins also serves. Collins as a writer as competent but in every way but one inferior to Dickens. That one way was the ability to plot. The result is that The Woman in White and The Moonstone are still read today. Plotting is part of writing. Poor plotting is poor writing, even if there are other aspects that redeem (partially anyhow,) any given work.

As for the importance of the writers' skills? Lost is probably as well done a serial as could be hoped for. Even before the end, it is obvious that Lost is fundamentally a failure. For one thing, there are dropped elements like Mr. Eko. There are unsatisfactorily resolved elements already present, like the smoke monster (which is so pointless that it hardly deigns to appear, unlike the first season!) or the numbers that have to be punched lest the world be destroyed (except that, obviously, it wasn't true.) There are plot developments that damage characterization by pointlessly changing, then undoing changes, such as Jack's romance with Juliet. In fact much of the whole show for some time, in retrospect, was about Ben's conniving to get Jack to operate on his cancer. After that was done, the show went back to the regular story, such as it is. Lost is so astonishingly inventive that it is still compelling viewing, yet in my opinion the failure of its overall plot (if such meandering can be so dignified) significantly detracts from its achievement or value.

PS A story too long for one episode is not serialization.
 
Based on the way Babylon 5 turned out, I'd go with the pre-planned. I always thought it was really cool how they dropped various hints about how the series would end all the way back in the first season.

Much as I love B5, I'm not sure it could work for most shows with large writing staffs. I think the fact that JMS wrote the vast majority of the episodes had much to do with the success of the arc.

Jan
 
Serialization is superior to episodic shows because it gives the writers and storytellers more time to tell their story, thus allowing for a richer, more involved, and fascinating story. Episodic shows tend to start and end with the status quo being nearly exactly the same, thus showing little growth, rushed storytelling, and skipping past anything meaningful just to get that quick story on screen.

Episodic shows often have a handful of great stories, but on the whole it tends to come across as empty and uninspired. Serialized shows, including episodic ones that stick to long story arcs, often tell good to great stories that you really get involved in. You actually get time to mull over what's going on, discuss what's going to happen with friends and family, and otherwise gives the viewer a much more rich and entertaining experience.

It's like dressing up and going to a really nice restaurant where you spend a few hours enjoying the company of others, versus going through a McDonald's drive-thru. One's a full experience, the other is just something to satisfy you in the here and now and then easily forgotten. There's nothing wrong with that, but I'd rather enjoy a great meal than chow down on a overly-processed quarter pounder 9 times out of 10.
 
^^Back in the '60s, though, it was believed that episodic shows were superior to serial shows, since at the time, serialization was only used by soap operas and occasional sitcoms, and the classiest shows in the '50s had been the anthologies presenting a different play each week. Making each episode a self-contained story was seen as a mark of sophistication, because each story had to be complete and fulfilling on its own and you didn't have the easy out of "come back next time" to hold the audience's interest. Especially in pure anthologies, you had to make each installment good enough on its own that the audience would want to come back and see what you could do next week even if there weren't any ongoing threads or mysteries or cliffhangers to keep them around. That's arguably harder to do.

It's just that our current cultural prejudice is that serialization is superior, because we're comparing the sophisticated shows of today (which tend to be serialized by fashion) with the less sophisticated shows of an earlier time (which tended to be episodic by fashion). True, a lot of episodic shows were shallow and formulaic, but a lot of serialized shows can be shallow and formulaic too, taking advantage of their stretched-out format to be lazy and only tell a fraction of a story per episode, and trying to hold the viewers' interest with contrived plot twists and shock cliffhangers rather than meaningful story and character development (see the just-ended "Villains" arc on Heroes for a prime example).

It's never the format alone that determines whether a show is good or bad. It's the skill and care that goes into its creation. I'd rather see a smart, well-made episodic show than a lazy, shallow, cliched serialized show -- and vice-versa.
 
The argument for (good) serialization is simple: it makes use of television's key advantage over film: the ability to tell complex stories over long periods of time. Which is not to deride television that has told mostly standalone stories. Certainly television is a more useful venue for anthology stories (i.e. The Twilight Zone) than film since it can tell more stories. Some series that tell standalone stories (i.e. Star Trek) are equally commendable for the creativity exhibited.

The fact that serialization is a standard of soap operas doesn't make for much of an argument. Soap operas are serialized because of their low production values. Series with larger budgets have been historically standalone in order to best serve syndication. With soap operas, contrived cliffhangers and plot twists are what holds the audience and generates revenue, since syndication possibilities for such cheaply produced programs is nil. The stories abandon their own internal logic on a weekly basis in order to serve these plot developments. In both cases, the serialized/standalone nature of the television was purely a business decision.

Good writers have long fought for more serialized television (i.e. Homicide: Life on the Street), but networks have been traditionally against it, arguing for more standalone stories. DVD releases, online viewing, and subscription networks (i.e. HBO and Showtime) have complicated this business model. Now, serialized story-telling may affect syndication plans (i.e. the lives of Battlestar Galactica and Lost in syndication will be brief, except when shown in large blocks as they are on the sci-fi channel in re-runs), but this lost revenue is gained through ancillary sources (principally DVD box sets).

Serialized programs are not inherently good, of course. Twenty-Four has fully embraced its soap opera influences in its later years (the writers fully admit that it is a soap opera!), abandoning story logic, shuffling characters, and perpetually ending on large cliffhangers in favor of trying to stay true to the premise of a real-time thriller. And, if written in a haphazard manner, serialized programs are equal in failure to the worst of standalone entertainment (i.e. Heroes).
 
My preference ... and it's really a matter of preference as opposed to one being better than the other ... is for serialized story telling. I get far more satisfaction out of a highly involved story unfolding over an entire season, or several seasons. But, with that comes problems. Television shows are not mini-series where the entire story is scripted, polished, then put to film in a short period time. They are far more organic exercises which live for long periods of time. Any number of factors can change the direction of a show. Lost, as mentioned above, used a great deal of effort and time setting up Mr. Eko and placing a large chunk of the mythology in his court. But the actor didn't work out. So he, and that entire story line, became a dead end which had to be unsatisfactorily bandaged over. To a lesser extent, the same could be said of the ill fated Paulo and Nikki. And the opposite also is true. Break out characters can change the direction of a show. Jack Coleman's Noah Bennett in Heroes was so outstanding in Season 1 he was handed more and more of the story, which naturally creates mid-story corrections to compensate. Other factors can come into play, such as a network slicing the budget on a show.

As satisfying as a good arc based/serialized show can be, it is never going to be without it flaws; not with the way television is designed. But even with its flaws, the pay off can be huge. And if I had to guess I would say my two current favorite arc based shows, BSG and Lost, are going to pay off in spades.
 
It all comes down to the talent of the writers. Either approach can work if the writers are good. An extremely detailed, pre-planned show will suck if the writers doing it can't handle the pacing, the structure and the characters.

Thank you, thank you, thank you for acknowledging that it's the talent of the people involved that makes the difference, rather than assuming that if you get the right formula, anyone connected enough to wangle a "producer" title can make it work. Now if only network executives could figure that out.

I think it's not only the talent of the people involved, but what they--the writers/producers--are actually looking for.

I would think a lot of audience are definitely different than years ago, where we have a much more diverse audience, as well as people wanting more realistic approach to their shows...(of course, mixed in with a dose of fantasy).

Casual audiences know when something doesn't work; and if a show just 'connects the dots' it will show.

Judging from many of the responses, as well as what I see in shows...there has to be some sort of plan made out. Especially with sci-fi, there has to be something different brought to the table....
 
The argument for (good) serialization is simple: it makes use of television's key advantage over film: the ability to tell complex stories over long periods of time. Which is not to deride television that has told mostly standalone stories. Certainly television is a more useful venue for anthology stories (i.e. The Twilight Zone) than film since it can tell more stories. Some series that tell standalone stories (i.e. Star Trek) are equally commendable for the creativity exhibited.

That's all true. Both serialization and standalone storytelling have their value. And it's a good point that a television series has a greater potential for serialization, which makes it distinct from film. But that's different from saying that one is intrinsically "superior" to the other. That's oversimplifying the question.

The fact that serialization is a standard of soap operas doesn't make for much of an argument.

I'm not saying it does. I'm saying it was a factor in why people 30 or 40 years ago looked down on serialization. I'm saying each generation's perception of the different approaches is shaped by the kind of shows they've seen them used in. In the '50s through '70s, TV viewers saw serialization used mainly in more "lowbrow" formats and episodic or anthology formats used in "classier" shows, so they assumed serialization was an inferior, disreputable technique. Then a series of high-quality shows from Hill Street Blues to Babylon 5 to Lost demonstrated that there was the potential for a lot of quality in serialization, and it therefore became fashionable for classy shows, and so it came to be seen as a superior format. It's just a matter of what experience shapes your perceptions. If the opinions of people a generation or two ago were based more on preconceptions than on objective reality, why should we assume our opinions are any more objective? People 40 years from now may scoff at our definitions of quality storytelling. So all I'm saying is, don't be too quick to assume that the preferences of our generation are a fundamental truth.


Good writers have long fought for more serialized television (i.e. Homicide: Life on the Street), but networks have been traditionally against it, arguing for more standalone stories.

In the past generation, yes. But for many years before that, the classy, big-name writers wouldn't be caught dead doing a serial. People like Rod Serling and Paddy Chayefsky and Reginald Rose were playwrights. To them, good writing meant doing the equivalent of a play every week. Serling could've created a weekly series with continuing characters, but he chose to create The Twilight Zone instead, because that meant he didn't have to be limited by the same characters and situation and formula every week and could let his imagination roam wherever he wanted. Also because it let him adapt great short stories by the likes of Charles Beaumont and Richard Matheson, something he couldn't have done in a series with continuing characters and situations.

Indeed, maybe that's part of the reason why anthology shows were more common then -- because print anthologies were as well. These days, short stories aren't read as much (largely because of television) and most people's experience with print fiction is in the form of novels. So people have come to prefer a more novelistic approach to their television shows. But that doesn't mean novels are better than short stories, just more in vogue.

Fashion isn't cosmic truth. Today's writers find serialization preferable, but that hasn't always been the case. There are benefits to both approaches, not just to one of them. Pointing out the benefits of serialization is not wrong, but it doesn't refute the point that there are benefits to episodic or anthology storytelling as well. And different generations have simply had different opinions about which benefits they were more interested in.
 
There's a huge difference between anthologies and episodic shows. The former are self-contained stories start-to-finish. The latter is one story that just keeps getting reset over and over. The ending matches the beginning except in very rare circumstances, solely for the purpose of allowing other stories to be mix-and-matched in with all the others.

Sure, that works sometimes. But it works far less than serialized shows do. What people decided to do in the past is neither here nor there. With equally good writing and good premises, a serialized show will be far more interesting to me than an episodic one would simply because the former is something I can really get involved with, while the latter... not so much.

Anthologies are somewhere in the middle; self-contained short stories. But as mentioned, they're anything except episodic as there's no continuation. At least as far as I'm concerned.
 
The fact that serialization is a standard of soap operas doesn't make for much of an argument.

I'm not saying it does.

More of a remark directed towards stj than your post, Christopher.

Good writers have long fought for more serialized television (i.e. Homicide: Life on the Street), but networks have been traditionally against it, arguing for more standalone stories.

In the past generation, yes. But for many years before that, the classy, big-name writers wouldn't be caught dead doing a serial. People like Rod Serling and Paddy Chayefsky and Reginald Rose were playwrights. To them, good writing meant doing the equivalent of a play every week. Serling could've created a weekly series with continuing characters, but he chose to create The Twilight Zone instead, because that meant he didn't have to be limited by the same characters and situation and formula every week and could let his imagination roam wherever he wanted.

A few points to make, none of which, I think, you'll disagree with, but to clarify for clarity's sake...

Writers of that era avoided serialization because there wasn't the opportunity to do serious serialization on television. Such writing was restricted to soap operas with little production values and hurried, careless writing.

Series with continuing characters would have been forced to mantain the status quo in order to best serve syndication packages. Star Trek was a series with great creativity (creativity on par with Serling's on the Twilight Zone), even though it had a set of continuing characters, but the Twilight Zone had one advantage due to the anthology format: its central characters were allowed to grow, to change, to live, and to die. Certainly there were many reasons for Serling and other relatively prestigious television writers to write what they did at the time, but I don't think this aspect can be overlooked.
 
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