Pre-2009 Star Trek and LGBTQI+ representation: simple disinterest or active hostility?

[Skipper]

Ah, yes, the actual topic of the thread. Oops.

I still think there was no good reason not to have gay representation in the late 80s or 90s.

Yep. Totally agree. Also no one brought up a counterfactual example of a show that "lost money" for having made a "gay episode". And Berman himself said that the studios had nothing to do with the choice to exclude any serious LBGTQI+ representation from the show. And since, as we have seen, there are no real practical reasons to not do it (indeed he kept telling the actors "we're about to do it, just a moment!") everything relies on his personal beliefs. And if your personal beliefs require you to prevent any representation other than heteronormativity, well, it's clear how you feel about the LBGTQI+ issue.

EDIT, uh just saw you edit your post adding some things about Berman.

 

[UssGlenn]

Uh, Gerrold literally said this. He's quoted in the first posts.

But David Gerrold seems to have an axe to grind when it comes to Star Trek and by the time he left Berman wasn't even in charge, it was still Roddenberry's show. So I'm not 100% sure I can take his word for it.

Yeah, we really need specifics, to back up the allegation. Otherwise, Gerrold could just be combining his dislike for the man with a couple assumptions and here we are.

 

[Skipper]

Yeah, we really need specifics, to back up the allegation. Otherwise, Gerrold could just be combining his dislike for the man with a couple assumptions and here we are.

It was about his episode "Blood And Fire".


TrekMovie: Let’s talk about “Blood and Fire” – the AIDS allegory that you wrote and the obstacles you ran into trying to get it produced.

David Gerrold: I don’t blame Gene as much as I blame Rick Berman for that clusterfuck. Others have confirmed it. They have said that in their experience Rick Berman was a raging homophobe, which makes the whole thing even more bizarre. Because, before Rick Berman came on the show, he had written a three-page memo on ‘here are some of the stories we could tell, some of the issues we could address’. And number three on his three-page memo was AIDS and how we should do something about AIDS. So now Gene and I appeared at a Star Trek convention in November of 1986 and somebody asked “will there be gay people aboard the Enterprise?” And Gene – to give him credit for knowing the right thing to say at the right time – said “yes, it is time, we should show gay people on board the Enterprise.” This got a lot of applause. So then he repeated it in a staff meeting and balled out one of the producers and said “no, it’s time” So I figured if Gene said it in a staff meeting, then he truly means it. So it was time for me to get a script assignment and I started to do “Blood and Fire,” because I wanted to do something so far removed from funny. I wanted to show I could do something horrifying. Here is something about this disease that is so awful that we are not allowed to rescue anyone from that other ship but we don’t find out until after our away team has already beamed over so now we have to try. So the story wasn’t about AIDS as much as it was about the fear of AIDS. People had stopped donating blood because they were so afraid of AIDS.

TrekMovie: There was tremendous amount of misinformation out there at the beginning.

David Gerrold:So I wanted to do a story that involved blood donorship and the whole story was structured that we would need blood donors from the Enterprise to show that the crewmembers were not afraid of donating blood. I even wanted us to put a card at the end of the episode saying you can donate blood, contact your local Red Cross. I figured if blood donorship went up after the episode it would get news. It would not only demonstrate how big the audience was and be good PR for the show, but also raise blood donorship. So it was a win-win. So that the script, somewhere in there I was “you know what, these two characters, they could be boyfriends.” There were two lines of dialog. “How long have you two been together?” and “Since the Academy.” That was it. I go off to a Star Trek cruise and come back to find there has been a clusterfuck. Rick Berman writes that we can’t do this episode and how we are on at 4PM in some markets and mommies are going to write letters. We get half the staff saying we shouldn’t do it and the other half – those who could recognize a good story – saying “this is a hell of a script, we got to do this and demonstrate we are the Star Trek that everybody’s been waiting for.”

So Gene’s lawyer sits on Gene’s face for a while – he was another homophobe – and said “you have to take the gay characters out.” And so I give half the lines to Tasha Yar, because if we still get the episode on the air, the point will still be made. And we go through rewrite after rewrite after rewrite and the script doesn’t get any better and I see what is going on and I don’t want to be trapped in an office where we have hypocrites running the place. I can’t deal with this, my health was already starting to suffer. So I started taking vitamins and nothing is getting better and I said “I can’t deal with this hypocrisy” and then I hear a rumor that they are planning to fire me. So I am thinking “they really don’t want to go there.” And then I get offered a really nice deal over at Columbia. So I tell Gene I want take the deal at Columbia and to please not renew my contract. He and I part pretending to be amicable and a week later my agent calls me and says “why are people saying you got fired from Star Trek?”. I bring in a stack of everything I had. We go over to the Guild and the Guild looks at it and files a grievance that says “you have this kid doing producer level work and you were not paying him producer level wages and the Guild.” The Guild examines the “created by” and “developed by” credentials to see if I am entitled to those because of the amount of work I did and that Gene didn’t. So I ended up making six figures off of that little thing, because Gene and the lawyer set out to screw me. Dorothy made at least as much because she got jumped on her credits too. And the lawyer was also telling people “Dave is mentally ill too.” They paid for that. He repeated that to a reporter for the LA Times and my lawyer called him and said “what kind of car do you drive?” and he said “what do you mean?” and he said “because David is going to own it when we get finished suing you.” That ended that particular bit of slander, but I know for a fact that Gene set out to destroy my career for television because while there is no official black list, if you say “so and so is difficult to work with” you won’t get work.

 

[Damian]

I'm still not seeing proof that Berman was a 'raging homophobe' as Gerrold claims. He says others have said that without backing that up with anything other than 'others have said.' The only other thing he said about Berman in all that was that he said they couldn't air that because they'd get letters and so forth. And I can see that. Berman was a bit risk averse. Though I think even Gerrold was prone to hyperbole. Somehow I don't see Berman writing "mommies would write letters..." and so on. That was probably the intent of what he wrote but it doubt it was so in your face.

Berman was no trendsetter. Whenever Star Trek tackled some thorny issue, or did something outside the box, usually it was others that had to push him to do it. But I have yet to see anyone point to something he actually said that makes him a 'raging homophobe' as Gerrold describes.

But David Gerrold seems to have an axe to grind when it comes to Star Trek and by the time he left Berman wasn't even in charge, it was still Roddenberry's show. So I'm not 100% sure I can take his word for it.
Another reason why I'm not comfortable with laying all the blame at Berman's feet is that it lets everybody else off the hook. You're telling me Piller on TNG and early DS9, Behr, Taylor, Braga etc. had nothing to say when they ran their respective shows?

I agree with both points. I have read elsewhere that Gerrold did not like Berman and did not like how he led the show in later years. We are all colored by our personal perceptions of people, for good and bad. We're all human beings. He's complained about Berman about a lot of things, some fair, some off base IMO.

And yes, Berman was the man at the top, but he was far from the only showrunner. And his views didn't always win out. In DS9 he was very much against the idea of the Dominion War going on as long as it did. He wanted it just to be a few episodes. The DS9 showrunners won out. So if the other showrunners wanted to push for a homosexual character or even a brief plot point, it would have been done.

That's part of the reason I think it just didn't factor on the radar. For better or worse it just didn't rate as an important issue to them to cover at the time. I don't think it was any hostile intent, just apathy about it.

It'd be interesting to see a Rick Berman memoire. He was supposedly working on one sometimes after Enterprise ended but that was almost 20 years ago now. Granted it would be pro-Berman, or at least written from his own viewpoints. But then isn't any memoire like that. But it would give us a glimpse into what he was thinking at least. But he seems content to sit quietly on the sidelines. I guess that's a good thing in some ways. Let the current showrunners do their thing without him lurking around in the background.

 

[Skipper]

From Memory Alpha
----------------------------------
Having coined him "a raging homophobe", the earlier quoted David Gerrold has unequivocally accused Berman of sabotaging the development of the unrealized Next Generation first season episode "Blood and Fire", an allegory on AIDS, featuring gay characters. [26] As to the alleged homophobia of Berman, Mangels, Star Trek's only openly gay writer, has later observed, "I have never met Rick Berman, and he has never expressed any specific attitudes directly to me. That said, not one single actor, staff member, or Paramount employee has ever once defended him from charges of homophobia, and many have accused him of it. Berman was ultimately responsible for killing almost every pitch for gay characters, and in interviews, was mealy-mouthed and waffling about the need for GLBT representation. At the very least, he was gutless and didn't care about GLBT representation. From the information and evidence I've seen, heard, and read, I believe that Berman is the reason we never saw gays on Star Trek."
-----------------------------------------

 

[fireproof78]

That's part of the reason I think it just didn't factor on the radar. For better or worse it just didn't rate as an important issue to them to cover at the time. I don't think it was any hostile intent, just apathy about it.

On a large scale, I would agree. I think apathy led the day on this one, and any effort to introduce a character would be seen as unnecessary.

 

[Skipper]

By the way, obviously you can't work in Hollywood while foaming at the mouth and screaming "ALL F@*S WILL GO TO HELL!!!!" If you care about your career it is better to avoid expressing certain positions out loud.

It is easier in these cases to use actions directly rather than words.

 

[Michael]

It should be noted that Gerrold would later return to Berman-Trek in 1996 to do a cameo as a background extra in “Trials and Tribble-ations”. So the experience he had with it at the beginning of The Next Generation certainly didn’t keep him from wanting to do that. It’s debatable how much Berman was really involved with that, of course.

 

[UssGlenn]

That said, not one single actor, staff member, or Paramount employee has ever once defended him from charges of homophobia, and many have accused him of it.

But not on the record, apparently.

 

[Damian]

From Memory Alpha
----------------------------------
Having coined him "a raging homophobe", the earlier quoted David Gerrold has unequivocally accused Berman of sabotaging the development of the unrealized Next Generation first season episode "Blood and Fire", an allegory on AIDS, featuring gay characters. [26] As to the alleged homophobia of Berman, Mangels, Star Trek's only openly gay writer, has later observed, "I have never met Rick Berman, and he has never expressed any specific attitudes directly to me. That said, not one single actor, staff member, or Paramount employee has ever once defended him from charges of homophobia, and many have accused him of it. Berman was ultimately responsible for killing almost every pitch for gay characters, and in interviews, was mealy-mouthed and waffling about the need for GLBT representation. At the very least, he was gutless and didn't care about GLBT representation. From the information and evidence I've seen, heard, and read, I believe that Berman is the reason we never saw gays on Star Trek."
-----------------------------------------

It's still circumstantial. Still the old "others have said, other's haven't said' game. Before I accuse someone of being something I'd want actual proof. Someone coming out and saying Berman said homosexuals were '____', him being abusive towards homosexuals, that sort of thing. "Gutless and didn't care"...you could probably make that claim, yes.

And again I agree with @Takeru ... pinning everything on Berman sort of absolves anybody else, the other showrunners, producers, writers, studio, of which there are many. I've never heard anyone else bring this up that they asked to cover this issue on their respective shows and were shot down by Berman, or that they fought for this in any way.

 

[Skipper]

And again I agree with @Takeru ... pinning everything on Berman sort of absolves anybody else, the other showrunners, producers, writers, studio, of which there are many.

About the studio, Berman himself said:

Why were there no gay characters on TNG, DS9, Voyager or Enterprise? Was that your decision or the studio’s?

Berman: It was not the studio’s decision.

And let's remember that when it came to Enterprise, Berman accused the network of all the possible negative things about Enterprise, but not the lack of LBGQTI+ representation.

So I believe this was his choice and his alone (in none of the interviews does he ever say things like "I was pressured not to include LBGTQI+ characters" or similar). It might have made some sense in the late 80s, but absolutely NONE in the mid 2000s.

 

[Takeru]

By the way, obviously you can't work in Hollywood while foaming at the mouth and screaming "ALL F@*S WILL GO TO HELL!!!!" If you care about your career it is better to avoid expressing certain positions out loud.

True, a homophobe would not make their opinion known in that environment.

About the studio, Berman himself said:

And let's remember that when it came to Enterprise, Berman accused the network of all the possible negative things about Enterprise, but not the lack of LBGQTI+ representation.

So I believe this was his choice and his alone (in none of the interviews does he ever say things like "I was pressured not to include LBGTQI+ characters" or similar). It might have made some sense in the late 80s, but absolutely NONE in the mid 2000s.

The studio and network didn't stop the shows from having gay characters but they didn't demand it either, so they're not off the hook, they were in a position to make it happen and chose not to.

 

[Damian]

About the studio, Berman himself said:

And let's remember that when it came to Enterprise, Berman accused the network of all the possible negative things about Enterprise, but not the lack of LBGQTI+ representation.

So I believe this was his choice and his alone (in none of the interviews does he ever say things like "I was pressured not to include LBGTQI+ characters" or similar). It might have made some sense in the late 80s, but absolutely NONE in the mid 2000s.

I'm not saying they stopped it, or anyone else for that matter. What I'm saying is none of them pressured Berman (or anyone else) to include homosexual characters in Star Trek during his reign.

The topic of the thread is whether or not it was hostility or disinterest. My argument was that it seemed more disinterest. Nobody...Berman, Braga, Taylor, the writers, Paramount, found the topic interesting enough to pursue. But I never said there was active hostility towards it.

 

[Farscape One]

I was going to mention that David Gerrold wasn't in any of the writers' rooms or offices after TNG season 1, and he also had other issues with Berman, but both points have already been said.

What has not been said as a possibility is this. Maybe Berman was a homophobe at that early stage of TNG... but it's entirely possible he got past it. From TNG to the end of ENT is 18 years... people can change in much shorter spans of time. Considering only Gerrold is saying this with no one else confirming, it's at least possible.

Like others here, I'm leaning toward it just not being a priority.

And to be completely honest, the franchise's track record on 'romance of the week' episodes is pretty piss poor. So it may have been a good thing that it wasn't made front and center. (Having said that, we did get "REJOINED", and I actually think that was the best 'romance of the week" in the franchise because of the history between Dax and Kahn. And it focused entirely on that... it never once made any statement of "two women together, why?" or anything similar.)

While I do agree just having two men holding hands in the background (in Ten Forward, for example) would have been a step in the right direction, I can also see it as not being enough because such a thing is relegated to the background and not seen as a priority. So in the producers' view, it was easier to simply not bother at all.

 

[1001001]

Look how freaked out people are now about LGBT people daring to be on TV. (Florida and Texas, I’m looking at you!).

In the 90’s it may been worse. Did TPTB simply try to avoid that? Did they even give it much thought?

The truth is none of us were there, and we don’t know what was in their hearts and minds.

Fair to say, looking back, representation was almost zero. Star Trek has never really been as progressive as it thought it was, until the modern era.

And now people whine about things “being shoved down their throats.”

 

[Farscape One]

It should be noted that Gerrold would later return to Berman-Trek in 1996 to do a cameo as a background extra in “Trials and Tribble-ations”. So the experience he had with it at the beginning of The Next Generation certainly didn’t keep him from wanting to do that. It’s debatable how much Berman was really involved with that, of course.

DS9 doing a tribute to TOS by using Gerrold's episode? Of course, he would be fine with doing a cameo. I doubt many people would have said no to doing a cameo on a show doing such a tribute to their own work.

I don't think Berman was really involved with that one other than overseeing the money side. He was mostly hands off with DS9, which is part of the reason why Behr won as many fights as he did for the show.

 

[Damian]

While I do agree just having two men holding hands in the background (in Ten Forward, for example) would have been a step in the right direction, I can also see it as not being enough because such a thing is relegated to the background and not seen as a priority. So in the producers' view, it was easier to simply not bother at all.

In an odd sort of way I can see that backfiring on them. Some might have seen that as a 'token' gesture without any real meaning. I don't really think that would have helped in retrospect.

I do think it really was just apathy, that it didn't even register to them to delve into it at all. Like I said I never heard Braga, Taylor, Piller, etc. come out and say they wanted to include a gay character or storyline and were shot down.

I was going to mention that David Gerrold wasn't in any of the writers' rooms or offices after TNG season 1, and he also had other issues with Berman, but both points have already been said

I really would be curious if Berman gave Gerrold any other reasons for rejecting his story? Was that the only issue? Or were there other reasons? And I'd want to know exactly why Gerrold felt Berman was a 'raging homophobe' as he claims. Other than he didn't like his story or felt it was politically incorrect at the time. "Raging homophobe" is a strong accusation. He's basically saying Berman hates homosexuals with a passion. Where's your proof. And more than 'others have said.' Said what exactly. And what is their proof?

He's not just saying Berman was insensitive about gays, or ignorant. He called him a 'raging homophobe.' A very strong accusation to make about someone.

Andy Mandels was at least a bit more impartial about it, qualifying what he said that he had no direct evidence that Berman was a 'raging homophobe' before expressing his own thoughts.

 

[Damian]

Fair to say, looking back, representation was almost zero. Star Trek has never really been as progressive as it thought it was, until the modern era.

Very true. Sometimes we Trekkies see Star Trek with rose colored glasses. It's a good show, and at times has a good message to tell. And I like the positive future it portrays. That humanity has grown and improved.

But it's still a fictional show run by imperfect humans and run by humans that are trying to make money first and foremost. Portraying any sort of message is always going to come 2nd to that. And if some message they are portraying suddenly becomes unpopular or would lose them money, they'd drop it like a hot potato.

 

[evilchumlee]

Given the information presented about Berman, I truly believe was less homophobic, and more just protective of the money/brand.

I don't think he actually cared a whole lot WHAT was on the show, he cared about not making too many waves, he cared about people not tuning in. At that time, the safer bet was to NOT do gay people. People weren't turning off the TV and complaining because there weren't gay people. They WOULD have turned off the TV and complained if there was.

I tend to somewhat dismissive of the term "homophobe". I've been called a homophobe for the most passive possible things. Essentially anything other than "I 100% agree with everything anyone in the LGBT community says at all times with absolutely no dissenting comment whatsoever" can get "homophobe" launched at you. I once got called "homophobic" elsewhere because I said I didn't like the Klingons in DSC... I guess because there's gay people on the show? I don't even know.

Really though, everything Berman did seems pretty normal for the time period.

 

[fireproof78]

Very true. Sometimes we Trekkies see Star Trek with rose colored glasses. It's a good show, and at times has a good message to tell. And I like the positive future it portrays. That humanity has grown and improved.

But it's still a fictional show run by imperfect humans and run by humans that are trying to make money first and foremost. Portraying any sort of message is always going to come 2nd to that. And if some message they are portraying suddenly becomes unpopular or would lose them money, they'd drop it like a hot potato.

Which is from the first line in the TOS Writer's bible: we keep a certain level of an audience or we don't remain on the air. Period. This is business, not philosophy.

So, if there was concern that it would not make money then they probably wouldn't do it. Of course, it also looks short sighted and stupid, especially with a franchise that pats itself on the back and rest on its laurels as a trend setter. Trek simply wasn't as much as its press insisted that it was.

Sorry, pre-2009 I had an easier time with comedy shows, and such handling LGBT than Star Trek ever did.