Praxis explosion wierdness

[Nebusj]

Trekker4747 said:
Because, and this is coming from IIRC, planetary rings are dust, rocks, and other space shumutz captured in a planet's gravity and since gravity is strongest at the equator planetary rings are along that plane.

Explosions, however, occur 3-Dimensionaly.

I had not previously encountered the data that gravity was strongest around a planet's equator. This is an interesting effect which would seem to defeat the three-dimensionality you were describing, however: if planetary rings can pick out a preferred direction, why can't a subspace shock wave?

I should be interested to know if you have a guess why accretion disc jets tend to be very nearly linear instead of three-dimensional. And for that matter why it is the Homonuculus Nebula which has formed around Eta Carinae since its (observed in) 1843 eruption is remarkably not spherical (although it does look to my untrained eye like the (1, 0) spherical harmonic).

This was a building/plant that blew up on the planet's surface. It would've been a 3-dimensional explosion (as partialy evidenced that it took half the planet with it) and not of had a shockwave that traveled along a plane. A plane that conviently exsisted on the same one as Excelsior. It's the common mistake of Trek's creative staff thinking two-dimensionaly.

I'm curious what direction the debris flies out of when a high-speed turbine comes apart and destroys the engine in which it's housed.

As for the plane conveniently being in line with Excelsior, it has to catch somebody or else the story hasn't got any way to start. Or was it outrageous that of the entire Federation to come in from Vejur should happen to pass by a com station and the Rama Whale Probe happens to pass by Saratoga? And those would be tracing out, essentially, lines in space rather than a plane; Vejur and Probe had an infinitely smaller chance of appearing in range of some Federation article.

 

[Trekker4747]

As for the plane conveniently being in line with Excelsior, it has to catch somebody or else the story hasn't got any way to start.

That dosen't help your case any.

Plot devices like this are bad writing for a reason. If the only logic for something to be a certain way is to serve the plot then it shows a weakness in the writing.

 

[Nebusj]

I stand corrected. So ``The Cage'' is badly written because it can't start until the Talosian signal reaches some ship and it's absurd that it would reach the one we happen to be watching. And ``Where No Man Has Gone Before'' is badly written because there wasn't any reason the Enterprise had to be picked to try feebly going outside the galaxy or for there to be any kind of barrier present. And ``The Corbomite Maneuver'' was badly written because it's absurd that in the vastness of space they should just happen to run across a First Federation probe and on top of that a Buckminster Fuller dome should happen to be in the neighborhood. And in ``Mudd's Women'' it's unreasonable that with a whole galaxy for the two ships to be in then Mudd's vessel should by chance happen to be in distress within range of the Enterprise. And ...

Well, we can go on like this, but if nobody discovers there's a problem it's awfully hard to get the story going. And generally it's more interesting when characters are dropped right into the events (``The City on the Edge of Forever'', ``The Doomsday Machine'', ``The Immunity Syndrome'', ``The Best of Both Worlds'') than it is to have the audience learn about it through e-mail (see any of the very many ``medical emergencies'' they're always sending Enterprises off to, none of which anyone has any memory of).

 

[Trekker4747]

Well, we can go on like this, but if nobody discovers there's a problem it's awfully hard to get the story going

True, but it should make sense and should seem to happen naturaly than by happenstance.

That in all the vastness of the universe in all the moments in time that the Excelsior just happened to be in that one spot when Praxis eploded is just a poor plot device put there only to make tension and, as you said, "throw our characters into the plot.

But there's less clumbsy ways to do this.

In your Cage example, for example, that isn't a poor plot devices. Distress signals radiate out in all directions for long periods of time with the intent of running into someone. So that isn't bad writing.

But that in the whole of the universe the Excelsior happened to be in that one spot at that one moment is pretty absurd.

 

[BrotherBenny]

Trekker4747 said:
But that in the whole of the universe the Excelsior happened to be in that one spot at that one moment is pretty absurd.

The Klingon homeworld is in the Beta Quadrant, and is canonically about four days from Earth at warp 4.5 (don't go there please, I know Enterprise has iffy canon). Excelsior was returning to Federation space but was not explicitly stated as being in Federation space, therefore one can conclude that it was coming close to the Federation/Klingon border on its way home.

On another note, IIRC, it has been established in-universe that ships tend to travel on the galactic equatorial plane unless they need to head off in different directions for the plot.

 

[Timo]

Still, it would be a trillion-to-one chance (or, actually, a gadzillion times smaller than that) that a shockwave traveling in the galactic plane would hit a starship traveling in the galactic plane.

Assuming that the ship was at a distance of about two warp-4-days from Praxis when the wave hit, and assuming that four warp-4-days equal a couple of dozen lightyears (a plausible Earth-Qo'noS distance, and otherwise a plausible definition of four warp-4-days in light of TOS and TNG, too), we end up with the wave shooting out to hit the Excelsior at the angle of arctan(height of Excelsior divided by a dozen lightyears). Your calculator can quickly tell you this angle (which is the same as the odds of the hit, at least if you divide it by 180 degrees) is pretty darn close to zero. Indeed, most calculators would be unable to distinguish it from zero.

That's the maths of it. But that overlooks the physics of it. While to our knowledge there is no reason why the ship and the wave should be in the same place, it is entirely possible that ships and subspace waves tend to travel in the same type of "subspace terrain", rather than in an arbitrary volume of space. The wave might have traveled in one layer of a parallel-layered subspace (or more probably in a million such layers simultaneously), and the ship also happened to travel in such a layer (one out of the millions where such wavefronts were present) because those layers are more conductive to subspace movement than other random volumes of space are.

And I completely agree with Nebusj: the wave would eventually have hit some starship, given how Trek space is so full of those. There is nothing particularly amazing or meaningful in it hitting the ship commanded by Sulu. The story could have been started by the wave hitting a previously unseen freighter commanded by a merchant who was in no way related to either Harry Mudd or Cyrano Jones, too - but it's completely acceptable story logic that such things in movies or TV shows or books happen to pre-established characters.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Alisium]

Trekkies *shakes head*

 

[Alisium]

Xeris said:

Alisium said:
My problem is:

How fast was that friggin wave traveling?!!!! It made it all the way from the Klingon homeworld to somewhere in Federation space in a matter of moments!

The Excelsior wasn't in Federation space, it was returning to Federation space after the Beta Quadrant mission. The Federation did not have much territory in the BQ in the late 23rd century.

Even so,

The distances in space are vast. From here to our star alone is four light years. Even if the Excelsior was sitting right on the Klingon border, Praxis would more than likely have been at least a ly from the border, would have taken at least a year for the shockwave to reach Excelsior. Even if Praxis was only a light month away from the border it still would have taken a month!

And I think it's lazy, poor writing to make the universal answer to EVERYTHING "subspace". It just bothers me on so many levels. It's a friggin shockwave from a natural explosion and in normal space nothing natural can move faster than light speed under its own power.

Saying that subspace (which I know you in particular are not) is the reason is just plain stupid and an unfortunate common resort of Trek's since TNG.

And to the poster wondering why planetary rings can be planar and explosions cannot.

First you're comparing apples and oranges.

Rings are at a state of equalibrium. At the equator debris is pulled equally by the poles but, strongest by the surface just below them. That holds the debris in place at the center.

What happens is debris gets trapped in the planets megnetosphere and orbits, from different locations. Over time debris is attracted to other debris in orbit and coalesces. Over time if that dibris is not attracted into an eqatorial orbit it will either be sent into a much higher orbit or flung out of orbit comepletely.

Eventually, as the rings become more massive they exert significant gravitational forces of their own. That ring then creates a postitive feedback system by which it pulls in even more debris, creating even more massive rings and more gravitational forces. Which is why rings are tight with well definded edges.

Explosions are a different matter all together. They eminate from the source along the path of least resistance. If that resistance is a 360 x 360 sphere then the shockwave will be a sphere. If that explosion is from a surface and the least resistance is everywhere but down, then the shockwave is everywhere but down, in a half shpere.

That understanding gives us shape charges and certain mines. We have learned that if we make it hard for the energy to expand in one direction most ristence, then you can redirect the force into another direction. Take the bottom of a wine bottle, LINE (not pack) it with Comp-B and set if off, you'll end up with a mirror-esque image in your target.

Simply put, it would take exterior forces already in existence outside of Praxis to "squash" the force of the explosion into a flat plane. Such forces would have to be > or = to the force of the explosion. Such a force would have already crushed Praxis.

The reason we see only a plane is simple too. Stupid graphic artist. They must have seen some shockwave footage from the top down and not have realized that they were only seeing on angle of it.

They did get it right in Generations though.

 

[Trekker4747]

The distances in space are vast. From here to our star alone is four light years.

Actualy, from here to our star it's a little over eight light minutes.

The nearest extra-solar star is, indeed, four light years away though.

 

[TeutonicNights]

Alisium said:

Xeris said:

Alisium said:
My problem is:

How fast was that friggin wave traveling?!!!! It made it all the way from the Klingon homeworld to somewhere in Federation space in a matter of moments!

The Excelsior wasn't in Federation space, it was returning to Federation space after the Beta Quadrant mission. The Federation did not have much territory in the BQ in the late 23rd century.

Even so,

The distances in space are vast. From here to our star alone is four light years. Even if the Excelsior was sitting right on the Klingon border, Praxis would more than likely have been at least a ly from the border, would have taken at least a year for the shockwave to reach Excelsior. Even if Praxis was only a light month away from the border it still would have taken a month!

It's a friggin shockwave from a natural explosion and in normal space nothing natural can move faster than light speed under its own power.

did you even watch the movie? It was no "natural explosion" and they specifically stated in the movie that it was a Subspace Shockwave

 

[Nebusj]

Alisium said:
Eventually, as the rings become more massive they exert significant gravitational forces of their own. That ring then creates a postitive feedback system by which it pulls in even more debris, creating even more massive rings and more gravitational forces. Which is why rings are tight with well definded edges.

Well, it's comforting to know there are natural phenomena which will turn out to be nearly planar or some other peculiarly non-spherical shape, and will even have some kind of reason to take on that shape. And that those rumors of indistinct, clumpy rings in the orbit of Neptune were just that, mere rumors.

Explosions are a different matter all together. They eminate from the source along the path of least resistance. If that resistance is a 360 x 360 sphere then the shockwave will be a sphere. If that explosion is from a surface and the least resistance is everywhere but down, then the shockwave is everywhere but down, in a half shpere.

Ah, so, the nebula formed from the Eta Carinae explosion observed in 1843 is not, in fact, highly non-spherical despite appearances? And the most dangerous amounts of radiation from its anticipated supernova will not be confined to nearly polar rays but will instead spray out all over with no significant difference depending on the observer's position?

That understanding gives us shape charges and certain mines. We have learned that if we make it hard for the energy to expand in one direction most ristence, then you can redirect the force into another direction. Take the bottom of a wine bottle, LINE (not pack) it with Comp-B and set if off, you'll end up with a mirror-esque image in your target.

Allow me please to try to improve my understanding. If I were to have a massive ring which was spinning about extremely rapidly but which was just barely held together by radial spokes -- like a bicycle ring -- and then I were to destroy the axle which was holding it together, then there would be just as much danger from pieces flying off in the polar direction as there would be from pieces flying off from the shattered ring?

Simply put, it would take exterior forces already in existence outside of Praxis to "squash" the force of the explosion into a flat plane. Such forces would have to be > or = to the force of the explosion. Such a force would have already crushed Praxis.

Ah, so, please enlighten me further. Imagine that I have a collection of uniformly charged particles all a highly identifiable bright blue, and they are bound by a magnetic field to fly within a pretty confined ring. Although there are variations these all come pretty close to circling the center at a uniform radius at a uniform speed. Suddenly, due to a power failure, the containing magnetic field is turned off and the particles are free to move by whatever laws of physics happen to apply in that municipality.

Would you kindly tell me what the result will look like, and what has happened to crush the planet on which this ring was placed?

 

[Alisium]

Trekker4747 said:

The distances in space are vast. From here to our star alone is four light years.

Actualy, from here to our star it's a little over eight light minutes.

The nearest extra-solar star is, indeed, four light years away though.

Thanks for that catch. I was indeed talking about Alpha Centuri.

 

[Alisium]

TeutonicNights said:

Alisium said:

Xeris said:

Alisium said:
My problem is:

How fast was that friggin wave traveling?!!!! It made it all the way from the Klingon homeworld to somewhere in Federation space in a matter of moments!

The Excelsior wasn't in Federation space, it was returning to Federation space after the Beta Quadrant mission. The Federation did not have much territory in the BQ in the late 23rd century.

Even so,

The distances in space are vast. From here to our star alone is four light years. Even if the Excelsior was sitting right on the Klingon border, Praxis would more than likely have been at least a ly from the border, would have taken at least a year for the shockwave to reach Excelsior. Even if Praxis was only a light month away from the border it still would have taken a month!

It's a friggin shockwave from a natural explosion and in normal space nothing natural can move faster than light speed under its own power.

did you even watch the movie? It was no "natural explosion" and they specifically stated in the movie that it was a Subspace Shockwave

Okay, yeah, I remember that part now. No need to get uppity. So then most of my points are moot and the tradition of terrible trek writing reigns supreme.

 

[Alisium]

Nebusj said:

Alisium said:
Eventually, as the rings become more massive they exert significant gravitational forces of their own. That ring then creates a postitive feedback system by which it pulls in even more debris, creating even more massive rings and more gravitational forces. Which is why rings are tight with well definded edges.

Well, it's comforting to know there are natural phenomena which will turn out to be nearly planar or some other peculiarly non-spherical shape, and will even have some kind of reason to take on that shape. And that those rumors of indistinct, clumpy rings in the orbit of Neptune were just that, mere rumors.

Explosions are a different matter all together. They eminate from the source along the path of least resistance. If that resistance is a 360 x 360 sphere then the shockwave will be a sphere. If that explosion is from a surface and the least resistance is everywhere but down, then the shockwave is everywhere but down, in a half shpere.

Ah, so, the nebula formed from the Eta Carinae explosion observed in 1843 is not, in fact, highly non-spherical despite appearances? And the most dangerous amounts of radiation from its anticipated supernova will not be confined to nearly polar rays but will instead spray out all over with no significant difference depending on the observer's position?

That understanding gives us shape charges and certain mines. We have learned that if we make it hard for the energy to expand in one direction most ristence, then you can redirect the force into another direction. Take the bottom of a wine bottle, LINE (not pack) it with Comp-B and set if off, you'll end up with a mirror-esque image in your target.

Allow me please to try to improve my understanding. If I were to have a massive ring which was spinning about extremely rapidly but which was just barely held together by radial spokes -- like a bicycle ring -- and then I were to destroy the axle which was holding it together, then there would be just as much danger from pieces flying off in the polar direction as there would be from pieces flying off from the shattered ring?

Simply put, it would take exterior forces already in existence outside of Praxis to "squash" the force of the explosion into a flat plane. Such forces would have to be > or = to the force of the explosion. Such a force would have already crushed Praxis.

Ah, so, please enlighten me further. Imagine that I have a collection of uniformly charged particles all a highly identifiable bright blue, and they are bound by a magnetic field to fly within a pretty confined ring. Although there are variations these all come pretty close to circling the center at a uniform radius at a uniform speed. Suddenly, due to a power failure, the containing magnetic field is turned off and the particles are free to move by whatever laws of physics happen to apply in that municipality.

Would you kindly tell me what the result will look like, and what has happened to crush the planet on which this ring was placed?

1. From what I understand yes they are clumpy but they are still mostly along one plane.

2. Outside forces I was speaking of earlier apply here. For a simple explosion what I said remains true.

3. If nothing held the ring to the axle and the ring was shattered then it would simply fly apart, wouldn't it?

4. Not sure I understand or at least can picture it. You have a group of particles orbiting around an axis and instead of a shperical formation like an e- cloud they are confined by an outside magnetic force to orbit along a narrow plane?

If the force on the outside and inside of the rings is suddenly turned off then inertia would carry them away from center and yes, it would continue to be a planar formation for a while. Id imagine that the similar charge would cause them to repel from eachother overtime and they would disperse.

 

[Blueicus]

Well, it was such a coincidence that the son of the head of the house of Montague just happened to meet the daughter of the head of the house of Capulet in a masquerade ball during a particular night and fell in love. That's not particularly plausible... what a crap story that was.

 

[Akira Class]

Here's a theory:

Excelsior was in Klingon space. Being primarily a military organization, the Klingon fleet doesn't have the equipment to carry out complex scientific missions. The Federation and the Klingon Empire came to an agreement to share knowledge on these anomalies in exchange for permission to study those that were located within the Empire. When Praxis exploded, Excelsior was right on the edge of the Kling system.
How else could Valtane have scanned Praxis unless they were very close to it? Why else would Excelsior be returning home on full impulse rather than at warp?

 

[Alisium]

Because they hated eachother?

Why would Excelsior have to go home on full impulse if it had been requested by the Klingon government?

And here's another problem I am having. If they are returning home, presumably from a great distance from Terra, why only impulse that would take years and years and years?

 

[Akira Class]

Alisium said:
Because they hated eachother?

Why would Excelsior have to go home on full impulse if it had been requested by the Klingon government?

And here's another problem I am having. If they are returning home, presumably from a great distance from Terra, why only impulse that would take years and years and years?

The Klingon government wanted to keep a close eye on Excelsior while it was in the Kling system. The treaty stated that Excelsior would not jump to warp while they were within the Kling system.

 

[Timo]

Starfleet has always possessed the ability to observe planet-sized objects visually from across several lightyears (ENT and TOS both "premiered" this ability from their own chronological points of primacy). Indeed, it's a technology we today are on the verge of possessing. Valtane could have zoomed in on the half-moon from across a considerable distance - as possibly exemplified by the fact that the image was not sharp, an extreme rarity in Star Trek!

OTOH, as the movie opens, Valtane is telling Sulu that they have completed their survey mission. He's telling Sulu this right at the moment. Obviously, Sulu's ship would not be at high warp towards home if the science officer hadn't even confirmed yet to the skipper that the mission was completed! More probably, the ship would still be at impulse within the last solar system surveyed, waiting for Sulu's okay to close down shop, stow the telescopes, and hit high warp. There would and should be plenty of time to tie loose ends at impulse while nominally "heading home".

Regarding the various ways of producing a planar shockwave, I don't think directed explosions could be the whole story. I mean, yeah, if something rapidly spinning blew up deep inside Praxis, with a preferred direction of exhaust for the explosion, a disk of ejecta could well result. But that would have to be an extremely narrow angle of exhaust if it were to remain even vaguely disklike at a distance of multiple lightyears.

More probably, there would be some sort of forces of coherence holding the disk together, possibly like in a soliton traveling in a channel (the channel being some sort of a subspace layer), or then simply so that all the off-angle components would dissipate but there would be a laserlike, sharp core that kept going because it was in perfect resonance with itself.

Phenomena like this are intriguing, not to mention dramatic and beautiful to watch. IMHO they are not overused in Star Trek, though, which is why I have no problem with the spectacle we got served in ST6.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[TeutonicNights]

Could it be that Dimitri Valtane is an Organian ?
We already know he is immortal ("Flashback", VOY), and all the events seem to unfold JUST when he says the Excelsior mission is done and they are still on impulse, but close enough to Qo'noS to not raise too many questions (except in this forum). After that, a very unlikely explosion JUST at the right moment hits the Excelsior at JUST the right angle. Something people in this thread have revealed to be almost impossible to happen!
Then, a series of events occurs that leads to a lasting peace between the two major superpowers.

Coincidence? I think not. The Organians had imposed by force a peace which the Klingons were not determined to keep from the beginning. Now they masterminded a plan that would keep their involvement hidden this time.