positronic Bareil should have lived!

[TeutonicNights]

So he was a positronic robot now. But so was Data. He could have regained some of Bareil's persona eventually and even if he wouldn't, he would still have a chance of leading a new life as teh cyborg priest.
But Bashir was portraying the situation as though Bareil was just a piece of junk that is only being kept alive due to Kira's love for Bareil.

He would not be Bareil anymore says Julian. True. He would be someone new, but wtf?

 

[STIntergalactic]

I doubt his brain implants were as sophisticated as Data. If his other half was replaced, the brain would probably do little more than control the body functions of a dead man.

 

[Navaros]

I've always had a very hard time trying to distinguish the original Bareil from already being a positronic robot and/or mannequin. As such, I do not believe the actor chosen would be able to differeniate his performance at all if they "technically" made him into one. He'd only repeat what he had already done up to that point IMO. Which would be perfect for that "new" role, but it would highlight even more how he was no good in his original role.

Anyhow, TeutonicNights brings up an interesting point. Bashir didn't seem to give any consideration to a different Bareil's life being worth anything. Which is surprising considering how much he generally values life. I didn't pick up on any of this before it was described in the OP because I was always happy to see Bareil go that it never even occurred to me that he should have been given further shots at life. Thanks for pointing out something interesting to think about, TeutonicNights.

 

[erastus25]

I doubt his brain implants were as sophisticated as Data. If his other half was replaced, the brain would probably do little more than control the body functions of a dead man.

Yeah, I agree. If Bashir had come up with something as sophisticated as Data then he would have already built an android. I can't imagine positronic Bariel being anything more than a walking version of the DS9 computer. It seems highly unlikely that Bashir had designed anything to interface with Bariel's memories or personality, meaning that the computer would not be able to interact with anything that actually made Bariel a person.

 

[All Seeing Eye]

Building a positronic Android from scratch and replacing a humanoid brain with a positronic brain is two completely different situations and far beyond comparison.
Data was a complete machine and was never truly alive, Bareil was a living breathing organic sentient being, ripping out his brain and replacing it with positronics is nothing more than killing him and turning him into a zombie and the thought that doing that is ok and he should have been kept alive is just completely sick.

 

[erastus25]

Building a positronic Android from scratch and replacing a humanoid brain with a positronic brain is two completely different situations and far beyond comparison.
Data was a complete machine and was never truly alive, Bareil was a living breathing organic sentient being, ripping out his brain and replacing it with positronics is nothing more than killing him and turning him into a zombie and the thought that doing that is ok and he should have been kept alive is just completely sick.

What about Prof. Ira Graves? It seems very possible to make the argument that although he was not born an android, he was still alive when he was transferred into Data. Even his emotions were preserved. The same could be said of Sargon and his comrades in Return to Tomorrow. I don't think it's as clearcut as "he wasn't born an android, so he can't become one" (in the ST 'verse at least). Instead it would seem we need to consider whether or not the technology can preserve the essence of the individual, and in this case it appears Dr. Bashir did not have the technology available to do that.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

I don't think Bareil would have wanted to live as a Data-like individual.

Bareil was a spiritual person. He lived in a 'world of the heart' - not a world of the head. He was not a scientist or a person who loved dealing in only cold, hard facts. He was an individual who instead loved dealing in issues of faith and feelings.

So no....no robot for Bareil. Because the man he was wouldn't have been there any longer.

 

[cwalrus2]

Great episode. I think in the DS9 Companion they say that the decision to kill off Bereil was incidental and they regretted how they did it. Originally, I think they were going to set up a new guest star in the role that they put Bereil in, but they figured that the audience wouldn't care if someone they didn't know died at the end so they decided to kill Bereil. I don't think they even considered letting Bereil live out his days with the positronic brain. Might have been interesting, but fans would have been screaming their heads off that DS9 was copying TNG by having another Data-like character on the show. In the end, they made the right choice. Bereil would not have wanted that for himself.

 

[TeutonicNights]

If CyborgBareil would have had none of the memories and personality of Bareil, in a way, Bashir had the choice to create a new life form, but decided not to do it.

Bashir adresses the subject somewhat in his "spark of life" speech, but he also says it's never been done before and they don't know if memories and feelings could survive. So he didn't exactly know when he decided to let him die.
Also, if a substantial part of the old Bareil had survived, progress in positronic research, emotion etc. chips could even have brought the old Bareil back in a way eventually.

and yeah, I also think Bareil wouldn't have wanted it. He also knew he was probably about to die and he was okay with it.

 

[STIntergalactic]

I don't think it was really an option. He only remain somewhat Bareil because he still had half a brain at first. If his whole brain was gone, he'd just be a simple computer. He'd repsond to certain stimuli, and be able to move and such, but that's about it. "Bareil" would be gone, and in it's place wouldn't be a new life form, but a computer.

I don't think they ever made mention of transfering his memories or brain function over to the new implant. They simply replaced half when it was required. I don't think they can make computers that can hold personalities and be surrogate brains...otherwise they'd have to do it for everyone.

 

[gastrof]

That's something I've NEVER understood about the episode.

If Bashir removed and replaced HALF of his brain, that's one thing. Part of the "real him" would still be there. (Didn't he even comment to Kira that he felt like he was in a waking dream, all disconnected from his previous life?)

Once the other half of his brain was gone, tho', how did he even continue to do his job for the short time he lived? I mean, the entire identity of the guy must have been GONE, so what was it that was walking and talking, and what experience and talents did "it" have?

Unless Bashir had been able to transfer at least SOME of the original consciousness into the two implants (as Graves did with Data), then once the second half of the real brain was gone, the guy wasn't himself at all any more. The real him was DEAD, and only his body was alive...

...albeit still walking and apparently talking?

 

[Timo]

Once the other half of his brain was gone, tho', how did he even continue to do his job for the short time he lived?

But he didn't. Bashir only ever replaced the left half of his cranial innards. With the other forebrain lobe gone, too, Bareil would no longer have been capable of conscious thought, which is what Bashir tells Kira (in layman terms) - and thus Bashir refuses to perform that operation, and Bareil dies, comatose, with his rightside lobes still intact.

Removing one forebrain lobe wouldn't be unrealistic, medically speaking: I've personally briefly known a person who underwent the operation, without loss of cognitive abilities. Replacing the midbrain, putting a computer in place of the cerebellum, would be futuristic but no doubt doable: those parts of the brain are well understood and fairly simplistic, and really only perform "janitorial" tasks that take care of the body. None of that would involve transferring Bareil's personality onto the positronic elements.

What Bareil looks and sounds like after Bashir's operation (which explicitly involved at least replacing the left hemisphere and installing a "midbrain interface", but may have entailed more) is no different from the classic stroke victim, still capable of conscious thought but weakened and tired and not in full control of his body and means of expression. Not unrealistic at all. The idea that "half his personality was gone" is just a figurative way of putting it, not a literal acknowledgement that half of his mind was removed with half of his forebrain.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Darth_Pazuzu]

Just one quick question:

Didn't Philip Anglim, the actor who played Bareil, also play the Elephant Man on Broadway? (John Hurt played the character in David Lynch's 1980 film, and I think David Bowie also took on the role sometime in the early '80s.)

 

[SoM]

Building a positronic Android from scratch and replacing a humanoid brain with a positronic brain is two completely different situations and far beyond comparison.
Data was a complete machine and was never truly alive, Bareil was a living breathing organic sentient being, ripping out his brain and replacing it with positronics is nothing more than killing him and turning him into a zombie and the thought that doing that is ok and he should have been kept alive is just completely sick.

What about Prof. Ira Graves? It seems very possible to make the argument that although he was not born an android, he was still alive when he was transferred into Data. Even his emotions were preserved. The same could be said of Sargon and his comrades in Return to Tomorrow. I don't think it's as clearcut as "he wasn't born an android, so he can't become one" (in the ST 'verse at least). Instead it would seem we need to consider whether or not the technology can preserve the essence of the individual, and in this case it appears Dr. Bashir did not have the technology available to do that.

Better question - what about Data's "mum", that Soong recreated as an android after she died without anyone noticing. Bashir didn't have the tech, certainly, but it's not out of the question entirely.

 

[Kira Nerys]

I was glad to see the character killed off .He seemed wooden.

 

[Wonderlust King]

I would have hated that. One of the many reasons I love DS9 is because it was the only series with out that emotionless character struggling to build them up throughout the series. Sure it could be interesting but every series had one but DS9.