Thankyou for your insight. We'll see how you are after your entire race is reduced from 12 colonies full of billions of people to 40,000 individuals, struggling to survive in a rag-tag fleet of spaceships.
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Thankyou for your insight. We'll see how you are after your entire race is reduced from 12 colonies full of billions of people to 40,000 individuals, struggling to survive in a rag-tag fleet of spaceships.
None of the characters in BSG is struggling to survive in a rag-tag fleet. They're even still working the same job. They have the same old bunks, the same old rations and the same old officers' clubs. I know, I saw them barhopping while flipping channels. Practically all of the characters have their loved ones at hand (is a list really necessary?) yet it sure seems to me that the majority of the whining is about---their love lives. How much insight does it take to see something wrong with this picture?
William Adama's ex-wife is dead.
Leeland Adama's baby mama is dead (we find this out in Black Market)
Kara Thrace's fiance, Zak, is dead (pre-attack, though)
Sharon and Tyrol are together, on Galactica (this coupling is pre-attack, so does it count?)
Billy's whole family is killed in the attack
Roslin has nobody, outside of an affair with the now dead Adar (Epiphanies)
Tigh's wife is (presumed) dead in the attack (Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down)
Did I miss anybody? The fact that, in the months and years AFTER the holocaust of the twelve colonies, characters have begun coupling with one another is hardly the same as the point you're trying to make (without any evidence).
Or were you thinking of a list like this?
William Adama and Roslin (meet at the decommissioning ceremony)
Tigh and his wife (found to have survived the attack weeks afterwards)
Kara and Lee (they know each other previously because of military service, and it's that military service that gives them the luck to survive)
Tyrol and Cally (they couple two years after the attack)
Billy and Dee (they meet at the decommissioning ceremony)
Kara and Anders (they don't even meet until months after the attack)
The fact is, most of these people DO lose all of their families in the Holocaust of the Twelve Colonies. Nearly everyone loses someone close to them. Yet you keep reiterating this talking point.
Billy and Roslin certainly aren't working the same job after the attack. Most of the rest are military, and they serve their jobs out of necessity.
Barhopping? They built a bar once, eventually, in Season 3. Two(ish) years after the initial attack. It was a plot point. Odds are that by then anyone would have wanted to build a bar.
They had the swanky bar on Cloud Nine, admittedly, but that was blown up at the end of Season 2.
They don't have the same rations. They've been eating food derived from algae for the last couple of seasons.
Also, there's more to "struggling to survive" than food and water shortages. There's also the fact that every so often a robotic enemy appears and tries to blow them away. The nature of the Cylon threat has changed somewhat as the story has developed, but space battles are no less frequent or dangerous.
Anyway, I know I'm not going to convince anyone who doesn't want to watch the show, but I see references to the characters being crybabies far too often. I just wonder what you'd expect from that premise? It seems to me that yes, occasionaly their love lives become an issue, but they would, in such a desperate survival situation. Any break from the monotony would become extremely important, and love and companionship would be a big part of that. That's what I assume, at least.
They have such unlimited supplies that rationing is a bad idea! Didn't you guys watch Black Market? Government control of the economy is BAD.
The characters act like soldiers off at war, resentful of the fatassed civilians living high at home. For instance, Tigh is a beloved character for berating the pansies at the rear. Gaeta, chief navigator supposedly for the last shred of humanity, wonders whether his career was worth the effort. Some female pilot is so worried about her military career---!!!---she doesn't want to see a familiar face from her past (don't know why, couldn't watch all that episode.) Tyrol will dump his lover, because now it's war time. And for me the big one is that nobody ever, ever feels like a failure because the Cylons won on their watch. Sorry but I think that the genocide excuse for the adolescent emo is ridiculous, confusing a few phrases for real dramatization.
If you go to the trouble of making lists, shouldn't they be honest ones? BSG is just a TV show. Unless it's making a political statement you agree with---or sharply disagree with---what is there to get heated about?
The major characters and their loved ones---
Bill Adama loves Lee and Kara. Both present.
Kara loves Bill and Lee. Both present.
Lee apparently loves and hates both Bill and Kara, but in either case they are present. He apparently divorced his mother along with his father. Certainly I have no idea what her name was. For a man who supposedly has Daddy Issues, Lee was always remarkably restrained in never unfairly accusing his father of failing to save his mother, don't you think?
Saul Tigh loves alcohol (when it's convenient for the plot) and Ellen. Both present. Refresh my memory about what was said or done about Ellen before she was found, please.
Tyrol loves Boomer. She's there. He hated his dad so much that even nuclear annihilation doesn't abate his resentment.
Boomer loves Tyrol. He's there, until he dumps her, which is of course exactly what any man would do when he loses everyone else he loves.
Roslin is dying, which means she's losing everything anyway. It sure doesn't dramatize the genocide.
Baltar loves himself, who is present. Maybe Six, except he never cares enough to call her by the name he knew her by. And she's sort of present anyhow.
Whether they are major characters is moot, but Billy and Dualla meet cute in the mini. Cottle loves cigarettes and they are present, algae paste ones, though, I'm sure. Helo loves Boomer, and she was present too. Cally?
BSG is a thoroughly cheap and shallow. The romantic relationships are by far most important. Not one major character didn't continue such romantic relationships they had before the alleged holocaust. Maybe there were some occasional phrases, but not one major character acted like they lost any one who really mattered to them, because they were busy with their love lives, which continued as before.
But of course the incredible scenes on Caprica, where the show didn't even bother to show plausible devastation and definitely not dead bodies, makes it brutally obvious that BSG didn't dramatize the alleged genocide.
The characters act like soldiers off at war, resentful of the fatassed civilians living high at home. For instance, Tigh is a beloved character for berating the pansies at the rear. Gaeta, chief navigator supposedly for the last shred of humanity, wonders whether his career was worth the effort. Some female pilot is so worried about her military career---!!!---she doesn't want to see a familiar face from her past (don't know why, couldn't watch all that episode.) Tyrol will dump his lover, because now it's war time. And for me the big one is that nobody ever, ever feels like a failure because the Cylons won on their watch. Sorry but I think that the genocide excuse for the adolescent emo is ridiculous, confusing a few phrases for real dramatization.
If you go to the trouble of making lists, shouldn't they be honest ones? BSG is just a TV show. Unless it's making a political statement you agree with---or sharply disagree with---what is there to get heated about?
The major characters and their loved ones---
Bill Adama loves Lee and Kara. Both present.
Kara loves Bill and Lee. Both present.
Lee apparently loves and hates both Bill and Kara, but in either case they are present. He apparently divorced his mother along with his father. Certainly I have no idea what her name was. For a man who supposedly has Daddy Issues, Lee was always remarkably restrained in never unfairly accusing his father of failing to save his mother, don't you think?
Saul Tigh loves alcohol (when it's convenient for the plot) and Ellen. Both present. Refresh my memory about what was said or done about Ellen before she was found, please.
Tyrol loves Boomer. She's there. He hated his dad so much that even nuclear annihilation doesn't abate his resentment.
Boomer loves Tyrol. He's there, until he dumps her, which is of course exactly what any man would do when he loses everyone else he loves.
Roslin is dying, which means she's losing everything anyway. It sure doesn't dramatize the genocide.
Baltar loves himself, who is present. Maybe Six, except he never cares enough to call her by the name he knew her by. And she's sort of present anyhow.
Whether they are major characters is moot, but Billy and Dualla meet cute in the mini. Cottle loves cigarettes and they are present, algae paste ones, though, I'm sure. Helo loves Boomer, and she was present too. Cally?
BSG is a thoroughly cheap and shallow. The romantic relationships are by far most important. Not one major character didn't continue such romantic relationships they had before the alleged holocaust. Maybe there were some occasional phrases, but not one major character acted like they lost any one who really mattered to them, because they were busy with their love lives, which continued as before.
But of course the incredible scenes on Caprica, where the show didn't even bother to show plausible devastation and definitely not dead bodies, makes it brutally obvious that BSG didn't dramatize the alleged genocide.
I could never get into Buffy, or any of the Stargates. Also, I have no idea why Joss Whedon is considered the almighty of writing in the genre (Over dramatic maybe but it does seem that way). Firefly was pretty good, but it wasn't something to get pissed at a network for 5+ years and counting.
Dexter isn't sci fi. Unless something really strange has happened this season.
Of current shows I've tried and can't get into,
Fringe
Life on Mars
Eleventh Hour
Doctor Who
Sanctuary
Eureka
Smallville
Supernatural
Medium
Ghost Whisperer
past shows I couldn't get into
Angel
Buffy
and too many others to remember
one I've dropped
Terminator: Sarah Connor Chronicles
ones I'll try but have my doubts about
Dollhouse
Kings
Stargate: Universe
Thank you! Perfect description of why I can't stand it.
For me, the big things I look for in a show are: originality, creativity, strong production values, characters who I find highly interesting, serialized writing. The higher a show ranks on those elements the better I like it.
Favorite sci fi show ever: Lost. Ranks super high on all the things I look for.
Or there's a case like Heroes. Not original but fairly creative. Nice production values. Characters I love. Writing is serialized even if it veers into illogic.
Note that both Lost and Heroes requires a lot of patience. I can be patient for shows that are giving me what I want.
Of course the The Matrix wasn't remotely original.
All that crap was stolen from much earlier sci fi.
I had crafted part of a lengthy response, but a certain point, I found myself stopping and wondering, "what's the point?"
You continue to state your opinions as if they are fact. You continue to incorrectly or incompletely cite episodes as evidence. By your own admittance you haven't seen many episodes in their entirety or at all.
For example...
Examples refuting this statement have been presented multiple times:
(1) Roslin didn't continue her relationship with Adar (2x13--Epiphanies)
(2) Lee didn't continue his relationship with Gianne. (2x14--Black Market)
Your argument further comes apart when you try to present alcohol and cigarettes as objects of romantic affection. You describe Kara and William Adama's relationship as if it is romantic, which is patently false. This is not the first time you've presented this theory, either.
You insist that Tyrol leaving Boomer was illogical and shallow. Note that he is ordered to cease the relationship by a superior officer. Note that he does not cease the relationship when ordered, because he is trying to hold onto one of the few things he has left. Note that he does end the relationship after the tribunal situation when he realizes that by continuing to lie about their relationship other people under his command (as happens in the episode) could wind up in detention.
Star Trek: Voyager
Star Trek: Enterprise
Heroes
The Batman
Invasion
Static Shock
Bionic Woman (new)
Star Trek: Enterprise
Heroes
The Batman
Invasion
Static Shock
Bionic Woman (new)
Instead of all this, then, why not just limit yourself to answering the simple questions. What did Tigh say or do about Ellen before her appearance? Why didn't Lee reproach his father? Even if Lee was convinced that Bill would have save the world if the military had listened to him, if Bill hadn't divorced Nameless Mama, she would have been safe aboard Galactica!
Let me add one more---how could the show have Helo running around on Caprica without making the magnitude of the catastrophe stunningly, crushingly obvious? The answer of course is that the show is not really about a rag tag fleet of refugees from genocide. It was about US soldiers at war with inhuman Muslims with demonic powers of subversion.
As to the sudden mention of "Gianne" in the second season, the point is dramatizing the alleged holocaust. Inventing a relationship two years later doesn't do that. I can't see how you thought it did, so why mention it? As far as incomplete citation of episodes goes, this episode ws really about condemning government control of the economy and showing Lee had the balls to murder a man. Both are really stupid points, so I suppose it makes sense to ignore them, though.
Roslin's relationship with Adar was nonexistent in the mini. It was no longer ongoing during the supposed genocide in the flashback. Most of all, since the salient feature of her characterization in the beginning is that she is dying, it is irrelevant---she was losing everything regardless. That doesn't dramatize the way the Cylons took every one's loved ones away from them.
As to your notion that Bill/Kara's relationship is not sexual (on his part)---you are not a perceptive viewer or reader. You didn't notice the alcohol and cigarettes were a joke about the supposed struggle for survival,---cigarettes "made of algae paste" was meant to amuse Bishbot.
But the real joke is that it doesn't help you if Bill/Kara really were father/daughter from the very beginning! Only by BSG's adolescent standards are the only important love relationships romantic ones! Outside the soap triangle of Bill/Lee/Kara, does any other character have any other kind of relationship other than sexual?
In one fashion or another, Tyrol would say to Tigh that "Buddy, practically everybody's dead, we've lost the war, I'm not throwing away the last person I love just because you say so, you fuckers lost the war, how do you think you can keep on giving crazy stupid orders." Another incomplete citation of episodes here---the point of the episode is that investigating the cause of 9/11 interferes with the war effort. The behavior of all the characters is unnatural, artificially imposed to rig the thematic conclusion of the episode. Again, though, it would not be helpful to cite the whole episode.
Let me remind you that a BSG fan smarting off to the simple observation that BSG is too angsty started all this. It is. Beating a dead horse just gets you all gluey, and stuck in a mess of nonsense.
Sure, I started all this, and I stand by it. BSG isn't too angsty, its just angsty enough. I'm not entirely sure of what you're saying about romance being important, you didn't answer my point that of course romance is important, its always important, and after the end of the world, having someone to go home to might seem like some kind of priority. It certainly does to me.
Has it occurred to you that Tyrol might have listened to Tigh because Tigh had a point? Galactica is the only ship left to protect the entire human race and if the officers start disobeying orders, everyone's in trouble. Of course, people do disobey orders left and right on BSG, because you are correct about it being that sort of situation. I don't see why its inconsistent to assume that sometimes they will do as they are told, but might snap at a later time.
Look, I'm sorry for getting this so off-topic, people have a right to dislike whatever series they want, but the notion that Galactica is bad because the characters whine too much is still utterly ridiculous to me. It seems easier to me to argue that they whine far less than would be probable, given the enormity of their problem, but I don't know. Who can say?
Oh, I missed your political point, well that actually is horseshit, but good luck with it.
And you missed the point. Deliberately?
Here's another for instance---when Starbuck went back to Caprica, she went to her old apartment and looked around at the ruins. Then she basically announced that this was just more of her life! That one scene, a key character scene for possibly the key character, was freakshow pinhead stupid. What's utterly ridiculous is prattling about their relevance of their supposed situation. They're not angsty about their situation, they're angsty about adolescent tripe. That's bad writing. Always was.
As for missing political points? Denying the political aspects was always horseshit. Everybody who cared to be honest knew BSG was a war on terror story, no matter what Eick and Moore said.
It has been an interesting discussion, but we should probably move on to other shows as well. Anyone truly wanting to continue the debate about nuBSG should feel free to start a thread in the BSG forum. For now, allow other discussions to crop up in here, okay?
Then, I'll ask everyone while they're here...would another thread in the BSG forum be worth the effort? I wouldn't mind continuing this debate, if it's civil.
I'd be ok with continuing it in the BSG forum if you like. It might liven the place up while we wait for more product, but it will essentially be a discussion with no end point. You either think that the drama portrayed in BSG is believable or you don't. Obviously I do, obviously stj doesn't. But there's no harm in debate. Bring it on
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