I'm not sure that's a particularly relevant point here, though. Who other than fans are likely to buy tie in novels?
Poll: Bring Janeway back?
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It works kinda this way:
1. Pocket deliberately publishes a very bland, inoffensive Star Trek novel, which attempts to offend no one - authentic science/exploration plot, no main character deaths, no sexual encounters, no racial or gender inequality issues, and something for every main character to do. It resets the status quo at the end of the book, and because of its lacklustre pro reviews in magazines, and dismal fan reviews on Amazon, it sells only 5000 copies. If an author does too many of these books in a row, they won't be offered many more contracts.
2. Pocket publishes a Star Trek novel which has an unpredictable, exciting SF story, maybe a sexual encounter or two, some meaty social commentary, and maybe a character's life will hang in the balance. Or they'll even die. It's hard to tell which plot threads might be picked up later by a future book, just as in real life we don't know our own futures. It doesn't have to reset the status quo at the end of the book but, due to enthusiastic pro reviews in magazines, and polarized fan reviews on Amazon, it sells tens of thousands of copies, going into multiple reprints. About 500 fans claim to be outraged by some aspect of the book, and refuse to buy it, but eventually even some of them are intrigued to check it out. Older fans of Star Trek, who don't normally buy ST tie-ins, are curious to seek it out, and a few get hooked by the ongoing storyline.
Um, me?
I was not a Star Trek fan in 1979. The pre-publicity for ST:TMP made me so hungry for information about it, I saw the novelization in a rack next to the cashier at my local supermarket and I pounced on it. I started reading it on the way home and was off to the cinema - by myself! - to see the movie multiple times over the next few weeks.
I must disagree with you somewhat, Brit. I don't really believe there is general disrespect of the Janeway/Voyager fans. I consider myself one (it's not my favorite Trek, but I like it a lot, and I like Janeway a lot too), and I haven't experienced it from BBSers in general. Individuals have been disrespectful, of course, some of them quite obnoxiously, but then again, individual VOY/J fans are sometimes disrespectful, too. I just haven't detected this widespread...pattern that you seem to have.
However, Brit is right that there is disrespect for the show, and it gets pretty darn tedious, too. I don't mind that other people dislike something that I like. What I mind is hearing about how awful Voyager is over and over and over again, no new points made, no wit, no humor, no new insights, just the same stuff over and over again. It's boooooorrrrrrring.
Some of you have pointed out, quite rightly, that some of the pro-Janeway posts in this thread and others are extremely repetitive, and that it can get quite boooooorrrrrrring. Well, you know what? The people who hate Voyager have repeated themselves all over the Trek BBS and guess what? It's boooooorrrrrrring, too. Repetition is boooooorrrrrrring.
I think everybody should just get the heck over it. Move on. Voyager haters: The show is done. It's been done for ages. You don't ever have to watch it again, and by the way, you didn't ever "have to" watch it.
And I don't mean to offend anyone, but if there really are Voyager fans who don't come here or to other Trek sites because it's not nurturing enough or whatever...well, they need to get over that, too. I don't mean to be rude - maybe I have thicker skin than the average VOY fan - but they really do. I mean, what difference does it make if people you don't know and who have no effect on your life dislike your favorite show? You can still enjoy it just as much no matter what, and what the hell? Here you can just put the worst ones on "ignore." If only I could do that at least sometimes to some of my coworkers and beloved but irritating relatives...
Are you telling me I am - or was - tied for 5th!?! And I've just posted again!?! Eeek! Geek alert! Geek alert! Geek alert!
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Thanks! My feelings exactly. I'm sure a Sisko fan wandering into a heated conversation about "leave Sisko out of the DS9 Relaunch" during the lead-up to "Unity", would have been concerned that he or she was entering a pit of vipers.
Unless the ST novels are one's particular ST passion, posting in the area of a BBS specifically designated for readers of the books is always going to feel risky, no matter how nurturing the regulars may be. And, of course, the regulars can do very little about drive-through, opportunistic punters.
As I hope the Janeway fans have noticed, none of us agree with each other all the time, so we really don't lie in wait to attack Janeway fans. Many of us are Janeway and VOY fans ourselves, but not so much that we feel a need to venture into the VOY area of the TrekBBS often, or to seek out Janeway fanfic.
Well said, JustKate. 
I'm of two minds concerning that.
On the one hand, I agree. You see, I'm an Enterprise fan, I was on this board when it was airing and it wasn't pretty. I had people tell me I wasn't a real Star Trek fan because I liked Enterprise and there was a disturbing amount of hatred being poured on the show. So I can sympathise with the Voyager fans.
On the other hand, there are always new people discovering either Star Trek or this board and for them, discussing this or stating their opinions is new and not boring. Also, saying that Voyager or Enterprise is awful is just an opinion and therefore ok on a message board. After a time, all discussions about shows no longer in production get repetitive. If we weren't allowed to be repetitive here, on a board devoted to a TV franchise currently on hiatus, we wouldn't have anything to discuss.
So, I kind of agree with this:
But I'd like to add that I don't mean the flaws of a show shouldn't be discussed, but some people really need to dial back on their passion, on both sides. I can live with people stating they didn't like ENT and still discuss rationally with them, and so can you.
My sentiments exactly. I sometimes wish for an ignore button in real life, too, even though I don't even use it here. Well, I just ignore the people that constantly annoy me and play soothing music in my head instead...
I'm of two minds concerning that.
On the one hand, I agree. You see, I'm an Enterprise fan, I was on this board when it was airing and it wasn't pretty. I had people tell me I wasn't a real Star Trek fan because I liked Enterprise and there was a disturbing amount of hatred being poured on the show. So I can sympathise with the Voyager fans.
On the other hand, there are always new people discovering either Star Trek or this board and for them, discussing this or stating their opinions is new and not boring. Also, saying that Voyager or Enterprise is awful is just an opinion and therefore ok on a message board. After a time, all discussions about shows no longer in production get repetitive. If we weren't allowed to be repetitive here, on a board devoted to a TV franchise currently on hiatus, we wouldn't have anything to discuss.
So, I kind of agree with this:
But I'd like to add that I don't mean the flaws of a show shouldn't be discussed, but some people really need to dial back on their passion, on both sides. I can live with people stating they didn't like ENT and still discuss rationally with them, and so can you.
My sentiments exactly. I sometimes wish for an ignore button in real life, too, even though I don't even use it here. Well, I just ignore the people that constantly annoy me and play soothing music in my head instead...
This works in theory, except that one can find several examples of those old numbered books that got outstanding reviews on amazon (4.5 or 5 stars), and several examples of unpredictable and exciting ones that got shitty or at best lukewarm reviews (most of Christopher's books, for instance, unfortunately enough).
I mean, I think you're making the right point here, but it's worth mentioning that the truth is a bit more complex.
My argument is more that they published standalone stories for YEARS, along with the shows which were themselves chock full of standalone episodic stories. Now that the novels have been freed of those constraints, let's tell THOSE stories because they're the ones that haven't been told yet.
Your second scenario still works - it's a harder sell, "this book is still exactly the same thing we were publishing a decade ago!". If someone's intrigued again, they're not going to want to buy more of the same stuff that they lost interest in the first time.
Well said, JustKate.
Aw, thanks!
Yeah, I've heard that. Time for folks to get the heck over that, too.
Well, I didn't say it wasn't OK to do this repetitive kind of discussion - I mean, I don't want there to be a rule or anything. But...it's still boooooorrrrrrring. So I try to be lenient to those who are new to the discussion...but I am less lenient (at least in my head if not in my posts) to the folks who are actually repeating themselves. Of course they have a right to do so...but I have a right to consider it (gotta say it one more time
) boooooorrrrrrring.But I'd like to add that I don't mean the flaws of a show shouldn't be discussed, but some people really need to dial back on their passion, on both sides. I can live with people stating they didn't like ENT and still discuss rationally with them, and so can you.
I agree 100 percent. "Voyager sucked!" or "Enterprise was lame!" do not, however, really constitute "discussing the flaws," IMO.
My sentiments exactly. I sometimes wish for an ignore button in real life, too, even though I don't even use it here. Well, I just ignore the people that constantly annoy me and play soothing music in my head instead...
If you figure out how to patent one of these things, I'd be willing to invest!
Well it will be interesting to compare that thread with the one that's created after Pocket offs Picard.
Hell, I'd cheer if Pocket had the balls to kill off Picard. I've been tired of that old poop for years.
Well it will be interesting to compare that thread with the one that's created after Pocket offs Picard.
Hell, I'd cheer if Pocket had the balls to kill off Picard. I've been tired of that old poop for years.
Heck, why stop there? They should off Sisko and Archer too and bring in some fresher blood.
^^ I'm with you regarding Archer. But Sisko? C'mon... he's The Sisko. How many other Trek captains have stepped away from Starfleet to, you know, have a life? Plus the fact that he's a religious figure to an entire planet, as well as the gods of said planet being responsible for his birth in the first place. Ben Sisko is probably one of the most unique characters Trek has ever produced. I for one am glad that he's no longer in Starfleet. Infinite story potential with him.
All the more reason to knock him off. Then the impact of his death and the meaning of his life can be explored. Infinite story potential here!
Well they've already done it, unless you're calling for them to knock him off a second time. Now that would be boring. One resurrected captain is quite enough, thank you very much.
^ I notice, Therin, that you quote my recommendation to the VOY/J fans but not the equivalent one to the anti-VOY folks. Are you trying to avoid "boooooorrrrrrring" repetition or are you just doing a bit of spin-doctoring?
Well, neither. I really haven't noticed much outright-hatred-for-VOY during these endless conversations. Everyone has their preferences. The anti-DS9 and anti-ENT fans are hardly going to take much time to address Janeway fans, so sure, some anti-VOY fans are going to be more attracted to the ongoing argument than anti-other-series people are going to be. It didn't seem to need to be commented upon. I covered it much earlier.
I, personally, certainly had early major-disinterest-in-DS9 - right up to the episode "Blood Oath", but that didn't stop me loving much of the content of the latter seasons, Bajoran religion/politics notwithstanding. "What You Leave Behind" brings me to tears: that music video montage that starts with the tiny, fallen Alamo tin soldier gets me every time.
I diligently watched every VOY episode. Janeway was probably my favourite character. It's tragic that she's gone. But, as I've said often, and despite anything the current editors might tease us about, no one stays dead in science fiction.
BTW, here's a thread Lynx might find interesting. I mentioned once how all my favourites: Garrvick ("Home is the Hunter"), a favourite alien from TMP ("Ex Machina"), Spock (ST II), Kirk ("Generations"), Yar (TNG), Data ("Nemesis"), Jadzia (DS9), Janeway (VOY), Tucker (ENT) all tend to get killed off. Now the park, named for my ST alter ego in 2004, has suffered two new literary indignities:
In 2381, Charivretha zh'Thane was amongst the 63 billion Federates killed by the Borg Collective during its attempted extermination of the Federation and allied worlds, gathered in Therin ParkLaibok along with hundreds of other Andorians awaiting their doom. ( in David Mack's ST - Destiny novel: Lost Souls) ("Memory Beta")
Therin Park was coined in 2004 by Heather Jarman, and named for my Star Trek alter ego, in the novel, "Andor: Paradigm", in "Worlds of Deep Space Nine, Book 1".
But eeek!
About a year ago, TerriO, briefly made reference on this bbs, as to how I might feel about what she'd "done to Andor" in her "Starfleet Corps of Engineers" eBook (2007). Now, I'm so far behind in my ST reading, so I haven't given the now-defunct eBook range much of a look-in, that I only just uncovered an official online excerpt in a Google search!
I'm kinda honoured. I think. But shocked nonetheless. Will it make me stop buying and reading ST books? No way!
All the more reason to knock him off. Then the impact of his death and the meaning of his life can be explored. Infinite story potential here!
And just as many would complain that the characters have already experienced life without Sisko. It was a driving force of the early DS9 Relaunch novels.
Well it will be interesting to compare that thread with the one that's created after Pocket offs Picard.
Hell, I'd cheer if Pocket had the balls to kill off Picard. I've been tired of that old poop for years.
Picard is dead - Dark Gilligan
Dark Gilligan is...who? - Picard
BTW DG, that was a joke but as I don't do smileys I wanted to make that clear as there are so many sensitive types on board (not that I'm including you among them) but best be safe than sorry.
Oh excuse me, it appears that emoticons is the correct PC term for this entirely naff enterprise.
Same diff.
Oh excuse me, it appears that emoticons is the correct PC term for this entirely naff enterprise.
Same diff.
Well they've already done it, unless you're calling for them to knock him off a second time. Now that would be boring. One resurrected captain is quite enough, thank you very much.
Well the guy is obviously living on borrowed time. Off with his head!
The exception does not prove the rule. I seriously doubt there are large numbers of people who aren't already fans reading these books. Of course, if anyone has numbers proving it one way or the other, I'll be happy to be stand corrected.
Believe me or not but it is actually possible to come up with unpredictable, exciting and thrilling stories without killing off a main character.
I've read some books which were impossible to stop reading before finishing them (hello there Greg Cox!) and believe it or not, none of the main characters were killed off even if it was close for some of them.
I did read your post about all of your favorite characters who have been killed off. Hmmmmm..........has someone casted a spell on you or what?
I must admit that I do admire you for keeping the interest up despite such setbacks. I don't think I would have done that, it was bad enough with Kes being ruined to make me start doubt and now the "Janeway case" as well.
I guess I'm a bit sensitive when it comes to Star Trek characters in general and Voyager characters in particular.
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