Poll: Bring Janeway back?

[Lynx]

Sorry, but I just have to repeat what I wrote before. If the main character can be killed off just like that, what will stop them from wasting more main characters when there's a need for an "effect"?

And this is the point that I was making before, with my list of the other series.

To be fair, NOTHING is preventing them from doing so, in much the same way nothing is preventing them from writing a 12-book epic about the Great Tribble Invasion or something equally nonsensical...nothing except what made them kill off Janeway in the first place - the desire to tell a good story. And, as you can see, Janeway's death is the exception rather than the rule; they clearly would not have done so unless they felt it was worthy, and as evidenced by the dozen or so cases where they brought main characters back into a place to continue impacting the ongoing narrative (including in Full Circle!) it's not a decision they took lightly.

Complain about Janeway's death all you want; it's a debatable decision, for damn sure. But don't act like it's part of some overall trend. It's very clear that this is an exception, not a rule.

How can you be so sure that this is an exception? Have you had some guarantees for that? As I see it, it's only your words against mine here.

I appreciate you admitting that you were wrong about the other series...but then you go right back to this. I answered this question like 2 pages ago in this thread - at least one statement you make in this quote is a BLATANT LIE and one other is, at best, a vast distortion of the truth. You don't even have to read the book to know that, just re-read a post I made in response to you earlier.

There is no reason for you to post this except if you are trying to actively distort reality to support your positions against people that don't know better. It's dishonest and dishonorable.

Stop. Making. Shit. Up.

Just to sort it out:

Spoiler: Missing crewmembers

Correct me if I'm wrong but Janeway, Tuvok, Chakotay and Seven are in the book. However, Janeway is killed off, Tuvok is on Titan, Chakotay and Seven are leaving their duties on Voyager for other assignments which means that none of those characters will be on board the ship in upcoming books. Questionmark for The Doctor who probably is in the book but I'm not sure what the future plans for him is and Kes and Neelix are not in the book at all. Am I right?

captcalhoun wrote:

yes. people who don't give a shit that she died and just wish everyone would remember:
IT'S NOT REAL!! SHE'S A FICTIONAL CHARACTER!!! IT'S JUST A FUCKING BOOK!!! GET THE HELL OVER IT!!!!!
worry about something REAL like the economy, or global climate change or the war in Iraq or the war in Afghanistan or the impending threat posed by a nuclear-armed Iran or the starving in Africa. not what happened to a FICTIONAL CHARACTER IN A FICTIONAL BOOK!
FFS!!!

I would like to inform you that I have a lot of different interest besides Star Trek.

Yes, I'm interested in politics, even if it really p***es me off most of the time due to the state of the world today and I do care about the environment, those who have been affected by the economical crisis caused by a bunch of ignorant idiots, certain other political events at home and abroad and I do participate in debates about those issues too. I'm also interested in music and sports, not to mention some other TV series as well which I also happen to debate about from time to time on some forums.

However, I won't go too deeply into all that because it would be too much of topic but I can send you a list about some of the events I follow if necessary.

But right now and right here we are actually debating one of my interests, an interest which happen to be a nice pastime and which gives me some respite from a not too friendly world outside my door. So I guess that I'm excused if I'm abit annoyed over the fact that this little "haven" of mine has been disturbed in ways I can't accept too mant times in the recent years.

I guess that it's the same for many dissapointed Voyager fans and Janeway fans who are expressing their opinions right now.

 

[LaBarre]

Lynx: But right now and right here we are actually debating one of my interests, an interest which happen to be a nice pastime and which gives me some respite from a not too friendly world outside my door.

Lynx, if this is what you call a "respite" I'd hate to see what the "not too friendly world" outside your door is like - must be a cross between Kabul and Lahore with perhaps a touch of Darfur.

 

[JD]

Just to sort it out:

Spoiler: Missing crewmembers

Correct me if I'm wrong but Janeway, Tuvok, Chakotay and Seven are in the book. However, Janeway is killed off, Tuvok is on Titan, Chakotay and Seven are leaving their duties on Voyager for other assignments which means that none of those characters will be on board the ship in upcoming books. Questionmark for The Doctor who probably is in the book but I'm not sure what the future plans for him is and Kes and Neelix are not in the book at all. Am I right?

Yeah, but why is that any different DS9 losing Odo, O'Brien, Worf, and Sisko (temporarily), or TNG losing Data, Riker, Troi and Ogawa? Or NF losing McHenry, Janos, and Sci Cwan or SCE lossing Duffy and possibly some recurring characters (I don't how many familiar characters are killed in Wildfire, I haven't read it yet), or Vanguard (apparently) losing Lurqal/Anna and (maybe) Reyes, or Titan losing Malar, and Jaza? As you can tell all of the series have lost characters, so why Voyager be any different?

 

[Lynx]

Just to sort it out:

Spoiler: Missing crewmembers

Correct me if I'm wrong but Janeway, Tuvok, Chakotay and Seven are in the book. However, Janeway is killed off, Tuvok is on Titan, Chakotay and Seven are leaving their duties on Voyager for other assignments which means that none of those characters will be on board the ship in upcoming books. Questionmark for The Doctor who probably is in the book but I'm not sure what the future plans for him is and Kes and Neelix are not in the book at all. Am I right?

Yeah, but why is that any different DS9 losing Odo, O'Brien, Worf, and Sisko (temporarily), or TNG losing Data, Riker, Troi and Ogawa? Or NF losing McHenry, Janos, and Sci Cwan or SCE lossing Duffy and possibly some recurring characters (I don't how many familiar characters are killed in Wildfire, I haven't read it yet), or Vanguard (apparently) losing Lurqal/Anna and (maybe) Reyes, or Titan losing Malar, and Jaza? As you can tell all of the series have lost characters, so why Voyager be any different?

And you wonder why I don't read those series? I've already expressed my dissatisfaction over the fact that Data was killed off and no one seem to bother to bring him back.

However, killing off Janeway was the final straw for me.

LaBarre wrote:

Lynx: But right now and right here we are actually debating one of my interests, an interest which happen to be a nice pastime and which gives me some respite from a not too friendly world outside my door.

Lynx, if this is what you call a "respite" I'd hate to see what the "not too friendly world" outside your door is like - must be a cross between Kabul and Lahore with perhaps a touch of Darfur.

I do think that you are exaggerating here.

I was referring to the whole world outside and I guess that the places you mention are a part of that world.

But even in my rather quiet corner of the world, things areen't that great outside my door either since the province I live in is affected by unemployment and problems, due to a "crisis" created by irresponsible idiots and worsened by certain politicians.

 

[ClayinCA]

And as to the topic of my gender... Your comments have amused me to the point where I'm leaning toward continuing to keep it a mystery for the time being.

And thusly, I shoot myself in the foot yet again....!

There you go using logic again. That's not going to get you anywhere.

Resistance is futile? Can't blame me for trying, at any rate.

I used to think like that....

You'd think I'd learn my lesson by now. Buuuut... to some degree, I kind of enjoy all this debating. To a point, at least. Once that point is reached, I may scale back my involvement in the discussion... Still, I agree that one thing that is perhaps getting lost in all this mess is that there really are some fine books being discussed here. Personally, I thought Before Dishonor was pretty good. Not GREAT maybe, but good. And the follow-up, Greater Than the Sum, was absolutely brilliant, IMO.

Yeah, I hit that point a little while back...it got so I was just SO INCREDIBLY FRUSTRATED that I couldn't handle staying involved in the actual discussion (I generally kept reading the threads, though, out of some masochistic urge about which I can only speculate). I kind of worry about poor old Thrawn, who looks to be about to reach that same threshold soon. Actually, it was the emergence of new participants to the discussion, such as yourself and neogothboy74, that has kind of drawn me back in.

Ha! I like it. Very well; looks like this post is turning into another [Phony French Accent]Novella.[/Phony French Accent]

Glad to be of service! Helping other people be pretentious is my own special super-power (since I'm so very good at it myself).

Lynx, really, the burden is on you to provide a compelling argument for why they would do this thing, not on us to provide a compelling argument as to why they would continue doing what they've been doing for years.

Not to mention a logical argument, based on evidence more compelling than "a feeling."

 

[Thrawn]

How can you be so sure that this is an exception? Have you had some guarantees for that? As I see it, it's only your words against mine here.

If you look at the past decade of TrekLit, it is factually and unarguably an exception. As to the future, I have no evidence except the past.

But the burden of proof is on YOU here - you're positing that they're going to drastically alter their present pattern; all I'm saying is that it's likely they'll keep doing what they've been doing.

ETA: And for the record, in the year and a half since Before Dishonor's publication, no more onscreen regulars have been killed despite a GIANT BORG INVASION that wiped out a sizable percentage of the entire Federation. Believe me, if they were planning on killing off main characters at a whim, they would've offed some then!

Just to sort it out:

Spoiler: Missing crewmembers

Correct me if I'm wrong but Janeway, Tuvok, Chakotay and Seven are in the book. However, Janeway is killed off, Tuvok is on Titan, Chakotay and Seven are leaving their duties on Voyager for other assignments which means that none of those characters will be on board the ship in upcoming books. Questionmark for The Doctor who probably is in the book but I'm not sure what the future plans for him is and Kes and Neelix are not in the book at all. Am I right?

Spoiler: DETAILED spoilers of Full Circle: STEER CLEAR if you care at all!

They're not leaving their duties on Voyager for other assignments; they're leaving starfleet. However, Seven is damaged from the events of Destiny, as the change from Borg to Caeliar dissolved her Borg implants, and ever since she's been having a sort of multiple personality disorder. Voyager's assignment is to find out what has been left behind now that the Caeliar have subsumed the Borg and left the galaxy...and Chakotay, in order to help Seven, is also planning to take her to where the Caeliar might be found. So, they're all part of the same story, even if not part of the same crew. Perhaps much like the separate Maquis/Voyager ships at the beginning of the series.

You're paranoid enough that you're probably going to go on some huge rant about how that means that next book they're probably going to kill them off or strand them alone or something, but my guess would be those characters will continue to be a part of the main thrust of the story moving forwards.

And the Doctor is, AS I SAID BEFORE, a crewmember on a ship that's part of the fleet traveling with Voyager. It's a ship staffed entirely by holograms, which seems like an excellent way to develop his character. This is now twice I've explained this; try to remember this time.

Indeed, Kes and Neelix are not in the book, but since they're both in the Delta Quadrant and this book doesn't take place in the Delta Quadrant, there wouldn't have been any way for them to be there as mandated by canon, so it seems like a stupid complaint.

 

[Takomaguy]

Bring Janeway back? Hell, let's just not, and say we did. No disrespect to anyone but in all honesty, the future of Star Trek begins in earnest next month, and it ain't with old Wrongway.

And here's one to everyone that said no one other than Wiliam Shatner would or even should play Captain Kirk. I told you so!

 

[JustKate]

Takomaguy...you do realize that even if the movie is a smash hit, people will still be writing and reading books about older Trek, right? That's not going to end no matter what happens with the movie, and if you think it is...well, people still bought TOS books after TNG and DS9 and VOY...

 

[Takomaguy]

Takomaguy...you do realize that even if the movie is a smash hit, people will still be writing and reading books about older Trek, right? That's not going to end no matter what happens with the movie, and if you think it is...well, people still bought TOS books after TNG and DS9 and VOY...

LOL!!! And there are people out there that watched Sci-Fi Channel's Flasj Gordon, too! What's your point?

Look, I'll give you that there are a huge number of people that were born after Star Trek, that want a "Star Trek" all of their very own. Fine. Got it. But come right down to it, a Janeway movie ain't going to happen for a whole host of reasons. What? Are you going to do them getting lost all over again? Who's going to pay to see that?

The Bad Robot crew at least advances and explores a previously unexplored avenue in the world of Star Trek. Now, if only they had ditched the name "Tiberius" in favor of something else with a T.

 

[JustKate]

Look, I'll give you that there are a huge number of people that were born after Star Trek, that want a "Star Trek" all of their very own. Fine. Got it. But come right down to it, a Janeway movie ain't going to happen for a whole host of reasons. What? Are you going to do them getting lost all over again? Who's going to pay to see that?

Who said anything about a Janeway movie? Did I miss something? This is the Trek Lit forum, Takomaguy, and I'm pretty sure what we're talking about here are books. That is what Janeway died in, you know - a book. Not a movie. You got movies on the brain, dude!

 

[Lynx]

How can you be so sure that this is an exception? Have you had some guarantees for that? As I see it, it's only your words against mine here.

If you look at the past decade of TrekLit, it is factually and unarguably an exception. As to the future, I have no evidence except the past.

But the burden of proof is on YOU here - you're positing that they're going to drastically alter their present pattern; all I'm saying is that it's likely they'll keep doing what they've been doing.

ETA: And for the record, in the year and a half since Before Dishonor's publication, no more onscreen regulars have been killed despite a GIANT BORG INVASION that wiped out a sizable percentage of the entire Federation. Believe me, if they were planning on killing off main characters at a whim, they would've offed some then!

Just to sort it out:

Spoiler: Missing crewmembers

Correct me if I'm wrong but Janeway, Tuvok, Chakotay and Seven are in the book. However, Janeway is killed off, Tuvok is on Titan, Chakotay and Seven are leaving their duties on Voyager for other assignments which means that none of those characters will be on board the ship in upcoming books. Questionmark for The Doctor who probably is in the book but I'm not sure what the future plans for him is and Kes and Neelix are not in the book at all. Am I right?

Spoiler: DETAILED spoilers of Full Circle: STEER CLEAR if you care at all!

They're not leaving their duties on Voyager for other assignments; they're leaving starfleet. However, Seven is damaged from the events of Destiny, as the change from Borg to Caeliar dissolved her Borg implants, and ever since she's been having a sort of multiple personality disorder. Voyager's assignment is to find out what has been left behind now that the Caeliar have subsumed the Borg and left the galaxy...and Chakotay, in order to help Seven, is also planning to take her to where the Caeliar might be found. So, they're all part of the same story, even if not part of the same crew. Perhaps much like the separate Maquis/Voyager ships at the beginning of the series.

You're paranoid enough that you're probably going to go on some huge rant about how that means that next book they're probably going to kill them off or strand them alone or something, but my guess would be those characters will continue to be a part of the main thrust of the story moving forwards.

And the Doctor is, AS I SAID BEFORE, a crewmember on a ship that's part of the fleet traveling with Voyager. It's a ship staffed entirely by holograms, which seems like an excellent way to develop his character. This is now twice I've explained this; try to remember this time.

Indeed, Kes and Neelix are not in the book, but since they're both in the Delta Quadrant and this book doesn't take place in the Delta Quadrant, there wouldn't have been any way for them to be there as mandated by canon, so it seems like a stupid complaint.

Thanks for detailed information. It did clear up a few things.

However, there are a lot of things in all this which makes me cringe. In fact, the more details I see of the upcoming events, the more negative I get.

 

[Takomaguy]

Look, I'll give you that there are a huge number of people that were born after Star Trek, that want a "Star Trek" all of their very own. Fine. Got it. But come right down to it, a Janeway movie ain't going to happen for a whole host of reasons. What? Are you going to do them getting lost all over again? Who's going to pay to see that?

Who said anything about a Janeway movie? Did I miss something? This is the Trek Lit forum, Takomaguy, and I'm pretty sure what we're talking about here are books. That is what Janeway died in, you know - a book. Not a movie. You got movies on the brain, dude!

Well not all movies, but as far as the Star Trek movie, I've focused like a laser.

So...they killed her off, did they. Hmmmm....I wonder why? Declining sales for Voyager books, I'm sure had nothing to do with it.

 

[Thrawn]

Look, I'll give you that there are a huge number of people that were born after Star Trek, that want a "Star Trek" all of their very own. Fine. Got it. But come right down to it, a Janeway movie ain't going to happen for a whole host of reasons. What? Are you going to do them getting lost all over again? Who's going to pay to see that?

Who said anything about a Janeway movie? Did I miss something? This is the Trek Lit forum, Takomaguy, and I'm pretty sure what we're talking about here are books. That is what Janeway died in, you know - a book. Not a movie. You got movies on the brain, dude!

Well not all movies, but as far as the Star Trek movie, I've focused like a laser.

So...they killed her off, did they. Hmmmm....I wonder why? Declining sales for Voyager books, I'm sure had nothing to do with it.

Actually, it DID have nothing to do with it. From all reports, the previous Voyager relaunch books sold brilliantly.

 

[Takomaguy]

Who said anything about a Janeway movie? Did I miss something? This is the Trek Lit forum, Takomaguy, and I'm pretty sure what we're talking about here are books. That is what Janeway died in, you know - a book. Not a movie. You got movies on the brain, dude!

Well not all movies, but as far as the Star Trek movie, I've focused like a laser.

So...they killed her off, did they. Hmmmm....I wonder why? Declining sales for Voyager books, I'm sure had nothing to do with it.

Actually, it DID have nothing to do with it. From all reports, the previous Voyager relaunch books sold brilliantly.

So what happened?

 

[JustKate]

^ Why kill Spock, why kill Data, why kill Kirk? It's just...you know...an important plot development. They have those in books, too, you know. (Kidding!)

 

[Thrawn]

Well not all movies, but as far as the Star Trek movie, I've focused like a laser.

So...they killed her off, did they. Hmmmm....I wonder why? Declining sales for Voyager books, I'm sure had nothing to do with it.

Actually, it DID have nothing to do with it. From all reports, the previous Voyager relaunch books sold brilliantly.

So what happened?

The author of the previous Voyager relaunch novels became engrossed in other assignments at about the same time the editor of the previous Voyager relaunch novels got another job. It took a few years for the new editor(s) to find a writer for the books and a new creative direction for the books. While that was in development, the decision was made to kill off Janeway as part of another story (TNG: Before Dishonor), for various reasons mostly coming down to they thought it made a better story that way, so they did it. Full Circle is the first Voyager book since 2004 to continue the relaunch story, and contains material that follows up on the previous books, then covers the next 2.5 years of in-universe time until the aftermath of Before Dishonor and the later Destiny trilogy, as part of establishing the new creative direction.

Unworthy, arriving later this year, will be the novel that truly establishes the new "status quo" so to speak; Full Circle was a giant transition from the old paradigm to a new one. (Not to mention an epic and emotional journey of pure awesome, but I digress.)

 

[Trent Roman]

Well not all movies, but as far as the Star Trek movie, I've focused like a laser.

So...they killed her off, did they. Hmmmm....I wonder why? Declining sales for Voyager books, I'm sure had nothing to do with it.

Actually, it DID have nothing to do with it. From all reports, the previous Voyager relaunch books sold brilliantly.

So what happened?

No freaking clue. Popular hypotheses include: it made for a better story (if Janeway's death made Before Dishonor a better story, I cannot fathom how terrible a book it must have been without it); Janeway had to die because there are no interesting stories that can be told about people above the rank of captain; she deserved it through some Olympic-grade karmic acrobatics; it's all a conspiracy by THE MAN to keep strong women down, pregnant and barefoot in the mess hall; it's a step towards turning Star Trek into a backdoor nuBSG spin-off; the editors and authors are thorough sadists who psychically feed off the suffering of wounded Janeway fans whilst crackling maniacally and twirling their mustaches.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Dark Gilligan]

...it's all a conspiracy by THE MAN to keep strong women down, pregnant and barefoot in the mess hall...

LOL!!! I love this one. Best laugh I've had all week.

 

[Daikirai]

Did Janeway take Kes with her when she left this mortal coil?

 

[K-Star]

*skips alot of the thread to offer her two cents on the matter*

You know... books are only as "canon" as you want them to be. They ain't official. Like in my case, I accept only certain novels/comics/etc to be canon (as in, I like to think this really happened in the ST universe) in my personal view so long as they meet certain criteria. Firstly, there must not be any major, easily identifiable timeline conflicts with established canon from shows and movies (basically, I pretend it happens during a time between episodes or movies). Secondly, the timing of the stories should not conflict with each other. If that's the case, I either pretend they happen at slightly different times or accept the one I like best. Thirdly, no one should be out of character. And finally, I have to LIKE the story.

So, if y'all don't like the fact that Janeway was killed, then don't accept that story in your personal view of how things are in the ST universe. Simple as that. Remember, Trek literature ain't really canon in the first place anyway.

Also, just cuz some Trek novel author offed Janeway in their story doesn't mean that the other Trek authors have to accept that it happened in their stories. They can keep writing books with Janeway in them all they want!

All this being said, though... I kinda wish no one killed her off at all anyway. She's my favorite captain. And no, I never read the book in question (I only read TNG stuff, and usually only pre-Nemesis but I'm making an exception for the Countdown comic because they bring Data back!)