Poll: Bring Janeway back?

[Thrawn]

That sounds just about perfect, except that we might consider adding a couple of subgroups:
1a) Those who don't care much one way or another but who pretend to be glad Janeway is dead because they want to annoy others. Sometimes, I can understand this, I really can.
2a) Those who are not glad Janeway is dead and would really rather not move one, but they will because the alternative is to never read another Voyager book again.

Fair enough...

I do think it's worth mentioning that most of the 2a people that have read the book seem to have really enjoyed it; there are a couple amazon reviews to that effect already, and one post in the review thread here where someone said they were afraid to read it because they thought they might like it... and they loved it.

I honestly think Full Circle is a fantastic enough piece of writing to render a lot of people's complaints no less legitimate, but a lot less important; this new direction doesn't really have a place for Janeway, and I think it's abundantly clear that the stories that will result will be outstanding. It's not the only way they could've gone, no, but hopefully the stories will be good enough that even if the decision to remove Janeway isn't forgiven, people can still enjoy them.

I know that, for instance, I was still able to enjoy Angel after Cordelia's death, which is one of the few in Joss's shows that I thought was poorly done and unjustified. I still hate that twist, but I still love the show.

 

[JB2005]

One other thought: does this not seem eerily familiar to Daniel Jackson? :O

 

[Gorf]

But you have absolutely no proof that VOY fans represent "a large segment of the fandom". Ratings say that not enough ST fans even followed it, and less again followed ENT.

But she's right that you can't go entirely by ratings - although I concede it's difficult to come up with another unbiased criteria. [...] Ratings are probably the best unbiased indicator we have available, but "best" is a relative term. They actually aren't that great, but so far the networks haven't come up with anything better.

One more thing - 10 year old ratings says very little about who's actually watching the shows or reading the books now. Only the most devoted fans have kept up the interest so making an estimate of how many Voyager fans exist based on these old ratings says absolutely nothing about the present. For all you - or rather we - know Voyager fans could be more loyal than most.

2a) Those who are not glad Janeway is dead and would really rather not move one, but they will because the alternative is to never read another Voyager book again.

For me a Voyager book without Janeway simply isn't Voyager. I moved on a long time ago and I can live with her death just fine, but it doesn't necessarily mean that I'll shut up here.

However, I have to admit that though I scan most of the posts, I rarely reply as I just have very little 'new' to add. It takes quite a bit of provocation or inspiration to make me reply these days, but then I'm sure some here are very grateful for that.

 

[LightningStorm]

One other thought: does this not seem eerily familiar to Daniel Jackson? :O

Only if she's found naked in field in Canada by villagers who are supposed to be from another planet.

 

[Turtletrekker]

I think there is a remarkably large and vocal fandom in spite of Voyager's relative obscurity, don't you?

Vocal, sure.

But you have absolutely no proof that VOY fans represent "a large segment of the fandom". Ratings say that not enough ST fans even followed it, and less again followed ENT.

And as our friend KRAD once said (and I'm paraphrasing here), "Don't mistake a few fans bitching on the internet for any kind of trend".

 

[neogothboy74]

I know that, for instance, I was still able to enjoy Angel after Cordelia's death, which is one of the few in Joss's shows that I thought was poorly done and unjustified. I still hate that twist, but I still love the show.

I didn't like Cordelia's being absent for most of the 5th Season, but I did enjoy the episode in which she came back and died. It took my breath away. But the character death episodes on Buffy / Angel were often my favorites. Of course you didn't have long to enjoy the show after her death; it ended 10 episodes later. But she had a cameo flashback that brought it all home in the penultimate episode (or was it the final episode?) Anyways - I thought her exit was classy. And I was able to enjoy the show after she left too. Just as I now enjoy Voyager. Point taken. Why am I rambling? lol

 

[Saito S]

Fine you may like KJ and Voyager, but really in a distant sort of well, its not a bad show. Voyager on the other hand is the show that I could relate to. I especially enjoyed the fact that there was a female capatain and a female chief engineer. I liked my "ship of the Valkyries" I care about what happened to that Captain, as much as you'll might care about what happens to the Sisko or to Picard. So please dont give us your little platitudes about oh but I liked janeway and I dont mind her getting killed. Its irritating to say the least.

You know what? I find that incredibly insulting.

I love Voyager and I also felt a kin towards the female Captain and Chief Engineer and yes for the record, I love the characters of Janeway and Torres. Here's the killer. I can deal with Janeway's death in BD and as a Voyager fan, am looking forward to the future VOY-R books and have already enjoyed Full Circle.

I am certainly not One of One. While I am guessing, in fact, I suspect there are a lot of people who share my view and so will continue to read the relaunch books. Those of us who enjoy the books from Full Circle on are still Voyager fans, no more and no less than you. It may just be that we are less vocal as a group but that does not mean that it can be implied that we are lesser fans than those who are upset about Janeway's death.

AMEN!! You guess right SStar , there are many of us. Sometimes our voices just get drowned out a bit...

On a side note; the poll is still at 55% - 45%

Thank you! That's pretty validating to hear. I had a feeling that there WERE people who absolutely love Voyager, and for whom Janeway IS a favorite, yet are ok with her death. I almost said as much, but I try not to put things in my posts that could make it seem as though I'm speaking for others, so I'm glad you guys spoke up.

I really hate that sentence "moving on" because for me it means acceptance and surrender, things which have never been an option for me. And what if there's nothing to move on to?

Uh... not sure what you're getting at here. I wasn't saying YOU need to move on, only indicating that some of us have.

Yes, for some people it's an event of realism which they might like, for others it's character destruction which we could have lived without.

Um... correct? Again, not sure what you're getting at. This doesn't really tie in to the point I was bringing up, which was the difference between appriciating an additional element of realism and demanding that the books become extremely realistic.

More power to you, Saito. I found a lot of what Militant said to you to be insulting, but I figured you're a big boy/girl (oh no, not that again!) and figured you can take care of yourself.

Seriously, your position is more or less my own on this matter - while I wouldn't be exactly happy if, say, Picard had been killed, that on its own wouldn't have been enough to get me to stop reading the books. (If the subsequent books had all been crap, well, that's another story.)

Thanks! And as to the topic of my gender... Your comments have amused me to the point where I'm leaning toward continuing to keep it a mystery for the time being.

There you go using logic again. That's not going to get you anywhere.

Resistance is futile? Can't blame me for trying, at any rate.

Yeah, pretty much. Me, I just wanted good Star Trek stories. Which I think we're getting. Others may not think so, which as you said, just boils down to difference of opinion - which you'd think wouldn't be something that you could argue for what has to be thousands (maybe even tens of thousands) of posts by now. Then again, welcome to the internet, I guess....

You'd think I'd learn my lesson by now. Buuuut... to some degree, I kind of enjoy all this debating. To a point, at least. Once that point is reached, I may scale back my involvement in the discussion... Still, I agree that one thing that is perhaps getting lost in all this mess is that there really are some fine books being discussed here. Personally, I thought Before Dishonor was pretty good. Not GREAT maybe, but good. And the follow-up, Greater Than the Sum, was absolutely brilliant, IMO.

If it helps you feel better, think of it as a novella. It's arty and makes you sound smart.

Ha! I like it. Very well; looks like this post is turning into another [Phony French Accent]Novella.[/Phony French Accent]

Sorry, but I just have to repeat what I wrote before. If the main character can be killed off just like that, what will stop them from wasting more main characters when there's a need for an "effect"?

And this is the point that I was making before, with my list of the other series.

To be fair, NOTHING is preventing them from doing so, in much the same way nothing is preventing them from writing a 12-book epic about the Great Tribble Invasion or something equally nonsensical...nothing except what made them kill off Janeway in the first place - the desire to tell a good story. And, as you can see, Janeway's death is the exception rather than the rule; they clearly would not have done so unless they felt it was worthy, and as evidenced by the dozen or so cases where they brought main characters back into a place to continue impacting the ongoing narrative (including in Full Circle!) it's not a decision they took lightly.

Complain about Janeway's death all you want; it's a debatable decision, for damn sure. But don't act like it's part of some overall trend. It's very clear that this is an exception, not a rule.

Thrawn beat me to it here. All I will add is to consider that NOT killing a bunch of main characters would be the default position. The decision to kill off Janeway was a calculated one. Lynx, really, the burden is on you to provide a compelling argument for why they would do this thing, not on us to provide a compelling argument as to why they would continue doing what they've been doing for years.

If pocket books were clever, they'd leak information that Janeway turns up alive in the next book, because there would be a flood of people going to buy it...and lets be honest those people aren't going to be able to ask for a refund if they then read it and janeway stayed dead, with the words "April Fool" at the end...

Man, that is MEAN!

One other thought: does this not seem eerily familiar to Daniel Jackson? :O

Who...?

 

[neogothboy74]

One other thought: does this not seem eerily familiar to Daniel Jackson? :O

Who...?

I'm pretty sure that Daniel Jackson is a character in the Stargate movie and the Stargate SG1 series.

 

[Trent Roman]

If pocket books were clever, they'd leak information that Janeway turns up alive in the next book, because there would be a flood of people going to buy it...and lets be honest those people aren't going to be able to ask for a refund if they then read it and janeway stayed dead, with the words "April Fool" at the end...

Personally, I still don't understand why editorial went out of their way to indicate that Janeway's death was a permanent situation instead of playing coy, as they usually do with respect to future developments, regarding Janeway's status. Those who think Janeway dying is the shit would still have bought the next books to witness the grisly aftermath, as would those whose hope for the character to return would not have been crushed. Plus it could have avoided half of this stool-slinging sessions (I say half, because, whether permanent or not, Before Dishonor still blows chunks).

Only if she's found naked in field in Canada by villagers who are supposed to be from another planet.

That happens all the freaking time. Bloody Raelians.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[neogothboy74]

I agree about enjoying seeing the characters split up. When the DS9 Relaunch began, one of my fears for the series was that it would hit the dreaded Reset Button on the finale and bring all the characters back that left in the final episodes of the series (Sisko, Odo, Worf, Martok, Rom, Leeta, Garak, O'Brien, Keiko, Mollie, Dukat, Winn & Damar). I thought that doing so would betray the storylines of the series, and would be unrealistic. But I was also worried that the new charcters wouldn't be up to snuff. Thankfully that wasn't the case. Bringing back Ro & Tarsis was perfection. The introductin of Shar & Vaughn were very well done and I've grown to love them just as much as any of the series regulars (Shar only stayed for 1 season - and I suspect Vaughn will be moving on soon as well, though that's just a hunch). And the series has had nice cameos for Odo, Garak, Worf, Martok, Rom, Leeta, the O'Briens (Dukat has not returned, but Macet has which is a nice commentary on the character) - and though Sisko did return eventually, he did not resume his command, and is a very different character than he was before, which I respect. We also know from the Destiny books that Dax & Tarsis will be leaving DS9 in the near future. Good for them; I look forward to reading the circumstances of that and following their adventures elsewhere. It really is part of the fun for me. And that doesn't make me any less of a fan than anyone else.

Another thing about the new direction of the books. Continuity. Sane character development. I wouldn't say that other people are 'better' Voyager fans than I, but I'd say there are many fans that enjoyed the series more than me. But I watched every episode the same as they did, and I loved many of the adventures though the 'character development' and the 'logic' of the storylines escaped me (and even sometimes hurt me)...which was endlessly frustrating to this fan who knew that the series could be better. And now after all these years I'm getting the continuity and character development that I've been waiting for. This is a very exciting time for me as a fan. Which is why I participate in these threads now, which I wouldn't have several years ago. I like that Kes & Neelix aren't part of the crew at this point, because that makes sense. I love Tuvok on Titan with Riker & Troi & Ranul - because Tuvok is being developed in ways that I as a fan can appreciate. I loved Seven's development in BD & the Destiny trilogy.

I loved Janeway. I Loved Janeway. In Season 1 of Voyager she was my favorite Trek character of all time. And then over the years, that character that I loved was diminished on the Voyager series until I found it hard to recognize her episode to episode. The Janeway of Season 1 would never have gone to that Borg ship alone in 'Before Dishonor', because back then she was written as a sane woman; the Janeway of later seasons definitely would have. I, sadly, found her behavior in 'Before Dishonor' completely in character with her later episodes. But to be fair, her character was so butchered by that point that she could have done anything and it could have been seen as in character. Voyager fans that disagree were perphaps watching a different series than I was. This is in no way an insult to Kate Mulgrew who played the character brilliantly, in spite of what she was given to play. Through the entire novel that featured Janeway's demise I was moved by Seven's love of the character...and her efforts to save Janeway, which touched me on a level I didn't expect - as I too had yearned for Janeway's salvation for years. At the moment of her death (when I was sure that Seven was going to save her) I was moved to tears for this character, that hadn't earned that kind of loyalty from me in years. Her death was not something I celebrated...but it was very nearly cathartic for me as an old-time Janeway fan. She saved Earth. She died valiantly. She exited this mortal coil with an act of heroic compassion that moved me. I know many others disagree with me, and that's fine because their assertations to the contrary can't take away the emotions I felt at that moment. It was like the Janeway I thought I'd lost years ago was given to me at this key moment in time and that redemptive moment healed an old wound inside me that allowed me to mourn the character, which is something I had really been doing for years - only now I could do so openly. It healed a rift that stood between me and Voyager. And now I'm able to embrace the new direction of the series, whole heartedly. I'm a Voyager fan again. Anyone who says otherwise is missing the point. I don't begrudge others having an opposite reaction, who feel that the character they've come to love over the years died and they are saddened by this - but the Janeway that this Voyager fan loved died years before she ever went to that cube. And the journey that she took on that cube, brutal as it was, in some ways saved her for me on a level that is hard for me to express - though I continue to try in these long rambling posts.

I do however believe that Janeway will return. I don't think it's a requirement. Maybe I'm wrong and she won't be back and I'd be fine with that. But I do think she'll be back. I hope it's not for a few more years. I hope that the crew & the audience will grow and change in her absence. I know I'll be reading their adventures all along the way. And as long as Janeway returns as a well written character, in a well written storyline, I'll welcome her back with open arms - I mean, she did have that whole Q moment so not bringing her back seems odd somehow; even if it's only a cameo. But I don't want that moment of her 'death' which was very personal to me, to be dismissed so easily; I want her return to be earned. And for the record, I hope that they allow characters to die in all the Treks without these Nexus / Prophets / Q interventions - because death is part of living and Trek should reflect that IMO. Trek has always been about the human condition, and to ignore this factor seems limiting and childish. Janeway was given this get-out-of-heaven-free card. Let's do away with that non-sense in the future, please.

 

[Trent Roman]

[Keanu] Whoa. Deja vu. [/Keanu]

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[kimc]

You don't have to read the book to reach an opinion on whether or not you wish to read said book. Obviously there's a lot about Janeway, but since she still dies and stays dead...no thanks.

True. The other day I went to Barnes and Noble and bought a whole stack of books (no Trek Lit though but perhaps someday) and walked by literally hundreds of books that not only will I never read but will probably never want to read. The life of a bibliophile is funny that way...

 

[shanejayell]

How much trouble would I be in if I posted a thread called "Keep Janeway dead!", I wonder? With a poll too, maybe...

 

[JustKate]

How much trouble would I be in if I posted a thread called "Keep Janeway dead!", I wonder? With a poll too, maybe...

I really wish you wouldn't. For one thing, "No way" is winning in this poll already.

 

[shanejayell]

*chuckles*

But that way I could poll people on how to keep Janeway dead!


1. Nuke her from orbit. It's the only way to be sure. (Aliens)
2. Stake through the heart, beheading and bury her at a crossroads. (Dracula)

 

[Trent Roman]

How much trouble would I be in if I posted a thread called "Keep Janeway dead!", I wonder? With a poll too, maybe...

The proper thing to do is wait until it looks like she's actually going to be brought back before you launch the poll. Then we can start arguing about this all over again with the positions reversed (particularly considering how many people have committed themselves to a dead Janeway). The gift that gives on giving, really.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[LaBarre]

I loved Janeway. I Loved Janeway. In Season 1 of Voyager she was my favorite Trek character of all time. And then over the years, that character that I loved was diminished on the Voyager series until I found it hard to recognize her episode to episode. The Janeway of Season 1 would never have gone to that Borg ship alone in 'Before Dishonor', because back then she was written as a sane woman; the Janeway of later seasons definitely would have. I, sadly, found her behavior in 'Before Dishonor' completely in character with her later episodes. But to be fair, her character was so butchered by that point that she could have done anything and it could have been seen as in character. Voyager fans that disagree were perphaps watching a different series than I was. This is in no way an insult to Kate Mulgrew who played the character brilliantly, in spite of what she was given to play. Through the entire novel that featured Janeway's demise I was moved by Seven's love of the character...and her efforts to save Janeway, which touched me on a level I didn't expect - as I too had yearned for Janeway's salvation for years. At the moment of her death (when I was sure that Seven was going to save her) I was moved to tears for this character, that hadn't earned that kind of loyalty from me in years. Her death was not something I celebrated...but it was very nearly cathartic for me as an old-time Janeway fan. She saved Earth. She died valiantly. She exited this mortal coil with an act of heroic compassion that moved me. I know many others disagree with me, and that's fine because their assertations to the contrary can't take away the emotions I felt at that moment. It was like the Janeway I thought I'd lost years ago was given to me at this key moment in time and that redemptive moment healed an old wound inside me that allowed me to mourn the character, which is something I had really been doing for years - only now I could do so openly. It healed a rift that stood between me and Voyager. And now I'm able to embrace the new direction of the series, whole heartedly. I'm a Voyager fan again. Anyone who says otherwise is missing the point. I don't begrudge others having an opposite reaction, who feel that the character they've come to love over the years died and they are saddened by this - but the Janeway that this Voyager fan loved died years before she ever went to that cube. And the journey that she took on that cube, brutal as it was, in some ways saved her for me on a level that is hard for me to express - though I continue to try in these long rambling posts.

I thought you expressed yourself particularly well, and movingly to boot.

 

[Lynx]

Hey Lynx...what's so great about Kes? I'm not looking to start some shit, but I never disliked her, but she didn't seem to do much other than try and expand her telepathic skills. I thought that this was one of the main reasons for axing her...

What's your favorite Kes moment?...episode?

Some good questions here.

I find Kes a great character who actually represent what Star Trek stands for. The will to learn and explore.

Besides that, she's also different from the typical cardboard cut-out female characters you'll find in many series (but not that often in Star Trek fortunately). She's nice and friendly, yes but also determined, strong-willed and smart. She has her own way to solve problems by simply moving around them and attack them from another angle, many times without using force.

I do find her both a complement and a contrast to characters like Janeway and Torres. The three of them were very different which made them all interesting.

I also find her mental abilities interesting (no I'm not counting the events in the awful episodes "The Gift" and "Fury" when her abilities became ridiculous for certain reasons). Her way to handle those abilities and learn to control them were interesting.

Kes is sometimes compared with Troi and there are some similarities between them. But without putting down Troi who I actually like, I find Kes a better character. She's simply tougher in a way. Besides that, she was never involved in any wimpy relationships which Troi did seem to stumble into from time to time (like the one with that Devinion in the episode with the Ferengis who ended up in the Delta Quadrant).

I think that Kes was too good to be dumped just like they did, not to mention the silly excuses they came up with for dumping the character. I also find the events in "Fury" downright insulting to her fans and totally unnecessary for the eongoing Voyager story and I was actually hoping that the relaunch would correct that. However, as it is now, I would be happy if they simply leave her alone. Even if they wouldn't finish the destruction of the character which Berman, Braga and Fuller started, it would probably still be too much of that "Fury" crap involved to suit my taste.

Favorite Kes moments? There were many of them. Her speech to Toscat in "Caretaker", episodes like "Cold Fire" and "Persistence Of Vision" where she actually saved the ship, the way she persuaded Tuvok to go back after Janeway and Chakotay in "Resolutions", her determination to save The Doctor in "The Swarm" and the solution she came up with, her interaction with The Doctor in sickbay........well, there are many good moments.

 

[Lynx]

How much trouble would I be in if I posted a thread called "Keep Janeway dead!", I wonder? With a poll too, maybe...

Now, wouldn't that be a bit provoking?

You know, rubbing salt in open wounds is actually very nasty.

 

[Therin of Andor]

You know, rubbing salt in open wounds is actually very nasty.

Not to mention that some people with open, weeping wounds keep venturing into the salt mine saying, "Here I am again! Please pass the salt!"