Poll: Bring Janeway back?

[JoeZhang]

As for me, I'm curious -- with a whole new range of possibilities, what do those characters do next? And why? Does it make sense in terms of their character and experiences? Does it look likely to generate more interesting stories?

I've always had a problem with Star Trek in that the status quo is maintained far beyond what's credible (I really wish Geordi would move on for example) but for me it's worse with Voyager because of the context.

Take Harry Kim, he was fresh out of the academy, a neophyte - now ten years later, he's still on the same ship with the same people. It's like a teenager who doesn't want to leave home, it makes him look like a putz. I can see how the voyager crew have evolved into a sort of family - but who wants to spend all of their time with their family? I would have actually perferred him to have gone over to the Titan or even the Enterprise - a young officer experienced in many ways but not in others because of the isolation from the organisation due to their time in the Delta Quandrant.

 

[crohnie]

As for me, I'm curious -- with a whole new range of possibilities, what do those characters do next? And why? Does it make sense in terms of their character and experiences? Does it look likely to generate more interesting stories?

I've always had a problem with Star Trek in that the status quo is maintained far beyond what's credible (I really wish Geordi would move on for example) but for me it's worse with Voyager because of the context.

Take Harry Kim, he was fresh out of the academy, a neophyte - now ten years later, he's still on the same ship with the same people. It's like a teenager who doesn't want to leave home, it makes him look like a putz. I can see how the voyager crew have evolved into a sort of family - but who wants to spend all of their time with their family? I would have actually perferred him to have gone over to the Titan or even the Enterprise - a young officer experienced in many ways but not in others because of the isolation from the organisation due to their time in the Delta Quandrant.

Harry's such a dork though, I can't really see him on the Enterprise.
Maybe the Titan. (because they're doing Deep Space Exploration in Peace Time)

 

[Praetor]

As for me, I'm curious -- with a whole new range of possibilities, what do those characters do next? And why? Does it make sense in terms of their character and experiences? Does it look likely to generate more interesting stories?

I've always had a problem with Star Trek in that the status quo is maintained far beyond what's credible (I really wish Geordi would move on for example) but for me it's worse with Voyager because of the context.

Take Harry Kim, he was fresh out of the academy, a neophyte - now ten years later, he's still on the same ship with the same people. It's like a teenager who doesn't want to leave home, it makes him look like a putz. I can see how the voyager crew have evolved into a sort of family - but who wants to spend all of their time with their family? I would have actually perferred him to have gone over to the Titan or even the Enterprise - a young officer experienced in many ways but not in others because of the isolation from the organisation due to their time in the Delta Quandrant.

QFT!

Example: 'Star Trek IV.' The crew is pardoned for their crimes, except for Kirk, who is demoted back to Captain (which he wanted all along) and they are given a replica of their lost ship and assigned to their stations from twenty years ago. So you have a ship's senior staff consisting of three Captains and four Commanders?

Kirk, Spock, and Scotty each seemed qualified for their own ship - each had substantial prior command experience from TOS alone, and the rank to go with it - as did Sulu (especially if you take the deleted TWOK line into account) and possibly Chekov. Surely Uhura, who we never saw in command other than in TAS, would qualify for at least a first officer's position. McCoy would really be the only possible exception - one presumes that a medical officer might have the option of commanding a starship by transferring to command (like Crusher in 'All Good Things'), or becoming a Captain at a shore medical assignment.

If they were all split up and Kirk (and perhaps McCoy) being the ones assigned to the new Enterprise initially by themselves, the 'last roundup' of Star Trek VI would have had more emotional significance.

Instead, they (and we) get the TOS status quo put back into place and Star Trek V happened. Perhaps Starfleet has a more sadistic sense of humor than we've ever suspected?

 

[brcarthey]

The impression I get from some of the Voyager/Janeway acolytes is that they don't want a new direction, they want more of the same old stuff even though there's no plausible reason for all those characters to get together in the same ship and do the same thing again. Their whole purpose for seven years was not to be doing that any more. As for me, I'm curious -- with a whole new range of possibilities, what do those characters do next? And why? Does it make sense in terms of their character and experiences? Does it look likely to generate more interesting stories? As an occasional Voyager-basher who thinks there was some unrealized good in there, I'm looking forward to seeing how things play out from a new beginning.

i'll have to disagree with you on one of your impressions...sort of. though, i'm not saying your impression is wrong, that's a personal decision based on what you feel you have observed.

yes, we kind of want the same characters around and interacting with one another. is it on the urealistic side? sure. but, so is most of sci-fi at this point. how many times did riker turn down a captain's chair during TNG's run? if you think about the amount of time he was first officer, that's 15 years. and someone mentioned geordi, too, staying on too long. so the want the crew to stay together that we grew to love, whether it be TNG, DS9, or VOY. i think with (their are what?) four series out now that contain the bulk of the casts from the 24th century shows you could certainly have intermixing and crossing over b/t the charaters and series. some won't like it, but you can't please everybody.

it's when you start introducing author-inspired characters into stories and builiding adventures around them that fans can get turned off. b/c those characters usually don't translate from author to author. i know i started getting turned off of SW novels when the number of literary characters outnumbered the movie characters like 5:1. it was probably realistic to have those new characters, but i just wasn't interested in them really and even less so as their characterizations changed from book to book. at least with the tv characters there's a static template on which to build. i think as long as you keep the bulk of the characters from the shows in the novels most people would be satisfied.

i'm starting to ramble and feel like i'm losing the molecular cohesiveness of my thoughts, so i'll just stop here for now.

 

[kimc]

The impression I get from some of the Voyager/Janeway acolytes is that they don't want a new direction, they want more of the same old stuff even though there's no plausible reason for all those characters to get together in the same ship and do the same thing again.

Was there any plausible reason for the TOS crew to get back into a ship called Enterprise and go off exploring again? Nope. However, the fans wanted to see more of it and Paramount wanted to make some money. Win-win.

There have been some great comments about the exploration of death in this thread. I can recommend an excellent book on the topic called "Year of Wonders" by Geraldine Brooks. It's about an English village in the 17th century that decides to close off outside contact when the plague comes. I don't think I would be giving the plot away to say that people drop like flies in this book. However, it's beatifully written and I can barely stand to put it down...

Back to Trek. The appealing thing about it to fans like myself is the thread of optimism that ran through the series. Humanity had overcome most of its inner darkness but important themes were still explored through the use of alien civilizations.

As for Janeway, I agree with the poster who said watching a character overcome a near-death or other gut-wrenching experience can be more interesting than killing them outright. I believe this character has a lot of stories left to her but it looks like they won't be written by Pocket Books. Oh well...

 

[Paris]

As for Janeway, I agree with the poster who said watching a character overcome a near-death or other gut-wrenching experience can be more interesting than killing them outright. I believe this character has a lot of stories left to her but it looks like they won't be written by Pocket Books. Oh well...

Has Pocket Books said this somewhere? Just because the relaunch is going ahead post-Janeway, it doesn't mean that Pocket won't publish more anthologies or more books that take place pre-dead Janeway either while the ship was still in the DQ, or in between Spirit Walk and Full Circle. As Christopher stated in the Full Circle thread, this book covers time from 2378-2381, but there is lots of time unaccounted for. Who's to say what happened in that interveneing time?

 

[Steve Roby]

The impression I get from some of the Voyager/Janeway acolytes is that they don't want a new direction, they want more of the same old stuff even though there's no plausible reason for all those characters to get together in the same ship and do the same thing again.

Was there any plausible reason for the TOS crew to get back into a ship called Enterprise and go off exploring again?

Friendship and loyalty and knowing that they weren't just stuck with each other in the middle of nowhere for seven years. They had two or three years apart between the end of TOS and the beginning of TMP; an unknown amount of time (probably a few years) apart between TMP and TWOK; at least three years apart between TFF and TUC... we just didn't see what all of them were doing in those years when they were each doing their own thing. And they didn't always all stick together. Chapel was on the Enterprise in, what, one movie?; Chekov went off and served on the Reliant; Sulu went off and became captain of the Excelsior...

 

[Praetor]

The impression I get from some of the Voyager/Janeway acolytes is that they don't want a new direction, they want more of the same old stuff even though there's no plausible reason for all those characters to get together in the same ship and do the same thing again.

Was there any plausible reason for the TOS crew to get back into a ship called Enterprise and go off exploring again?

Friendship and loyalty and knowing that they weren't just stuck with each other in the middle of nowhere for seven years. They had two or three years apart between the end of TOS and the beginning of TMP; an unknown amount of time (probably a few years) apart between TMP and TWOK; at least three years apart between TFF and TUC... we just didn't see what all of them were doing in those years when they were each doing their own thing. And they didn't always all stick together. Chapel was on the Enterprise in, what, one movie?; Chekov went off and served on the Reliant; Sulu went off and became captain of the Excelsior...

Frankly, that's the only way of explaining it that makes me accept it.

I understand that these were supposed to be a 'special' crew with a 'special' bond and what we saw of their time was relatively minimal. I can see them forming an even closer bond over their rule-breaking in TSFS. But, cripes. Realism may be less fun, but credibility can only stretch so far for me.

To nitpick, do we know that anyone other than the Holy Trinity was separated between TOS and TMP? For all we know, everyone else was still on the ship, working on the refit, especially if you take into account lines about Decker being captain since the beginning of the refit. Between TMP and TWOK they supposedly spent at least one more five-year mission together and then were together at the Academy, minus Kirk and Chekov. And where do you get 'three years apart' between TFF and TUC? For all we know, Sulu just left early while the others went on another mission together that ended just before the movie, and Kirk just had to remind McCoy where he was.

What I'm trying to say is that the impression I always got from the films was that they spent most of their off-screen time together, too, particularly from Kirk's lines in TFF, which in retrospect might also seem to give more credibility to their 'special bond.'

I guess my point, ultimately, is that it seems unfair to treat any other crew with a double-standard when you have the TOS crew basically staying together unchanged for twenty-five years because of an ostensibly special reason. In the case of the VGR crew, one might argue they had an equally special bond (perhaps even moreso) due to their circumstances, even if that circumstance lasted for only seven years.

 

[joyofvgr]

I guess my point, ultimately, is that it seems unfair to treat any other crew with a double-standard when you have the TOS crew basically staying together unchanged for twenty-five years because of an ostensibly special reason. In the case of the VGR crew, one might argue they had an equally special bond (perhaps even moreso) due to their circumstances, even if that circumstance lasted for only seven years.

Exactly, especially since we haven't even seen them all together since their initial return.

 

[JoeZhang]

I guess my point, ultimately, is that it seems unfair to treat any other crew with a double-standard when you have the TOS crew basically staying together unchanged for twenty-five years because of an ostensibly special reason. In the case of the VGR crew, one might argue they had an equally special bond (perhaps even moreso) due to their circumstances, even if that circumstance lasted for only seven years.

Exactly, especially since we haven't even seen them all together since their initial return.

My problem with this is that it's 2009 - TOS is from a different era and although the films went on longer than they should, I can't reconcile the more mature story-telling of the books with the idea that nobody would want to get off the ship once it returns to the Alpha Quadrant. I just don't find any emotional truth to it. It's all too comic-book for my tastes.

 

[Trent Roman]

Certainly, they have a special bond--but is that bond sufficient that it dictates what they do with the rest of their lives (or at least the nearer part of them), or more of the type that makes them want to keep in touch and maybe hold reunions (like the one in Endgame) while they're generally off doing their own thing? (Endgame doesn't really speak to it one way or another: clearly the crew were off doing their seperate things, but it's a matter of interpretation whether being on the ship together for 30-odd years would create a closer sense of community, or make them that much more eager to get spread out and find new pastures when they finally have the opportunity to do so.)

The reason you couldn't have the whole lot of them back on a starship doing the same ol' is that, for a number of them, that was never their life's goal. The unchanging crews of the Enterprise were all career Starfleet officers when they first met and established their respective cliques--maintaining it involved little sacrifice because they were all doing what they wanted to do in the first place. For the Voyager crew, however, those were circumstances they were forced into, not chosen as a vocation. Janeway and Kim I definately see as Starfleet 'lifers'; Tuvok as well, to a lesser extent. Chakotay is less clear; he did choose Starfleet, but also chose to leave, disillusioned. Paris never really cared for Starfleet--he mainly joined because of family pressure, and even after seven years back in the service his loyalty is to people, not institutions. Torres... despite having gone to the Academy and eventually meshing with the Voyager crew, I can't imagine her staying with the service given a choice. And the Doctor and Seven, by their unique natures and personal goals, have other things to do than to go back to being crewpeople aboard a starship. Of the eight main cast who came back, I'd say half if not more wouldn't simply 're-enlist' and ship out again. (Of the measly amount of secondary cast, however, I could see Barclay and Icheb, once he graduates, being part of a 'leftover' Voyager crew.)

I think it can be generally agreed that the Enterprise crew(s) staying together was never realistic, that it was a conceit like the Enterprise always being the only ship available to solve this week's dilemna, but it was a conceit I had no real problem accepting because it maintained the series coherence. With the Voyager crew, however, it's a conceit that I couldn't accept, because more than fudging with the setting, it just wouldn't be true to the characters.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[JoeZhang]

Certainly, they have a special bond--but is that bond sufficient that it dictates what they do with the rest of their lives (or at least the nearer part of them), or more of the type that makes them want to keep in touch and maybe hold reunions (like the one in Endgame) while they're generally off doing their own thing? (Endgame doesn't really speak to it one way or another: clearly the crew were off doing their seperate things, but it's a matter of interpretation whether being on the ship together for 30-odd years would create a closer sense of community, or make them that much more eager to get spread out and find new pastures when they finally have the opportunity to do so.)

The reason you couldn't have the whole lot of them back on a starship doing the same ol' is that, for a number of them, that was never their life's goal. The unchanging crews of the Enterprise were all career Starfleet officers when they first met and established their respective cliques--maintaining it involved little sacrifice because they were all doing what they wanted to do in the first place. For the Voyager crew, however, those were circumstances they were forced into, not chosen as a vocation. Janeway and Kim I definately see as Starfleet 'lifers'; Tuvok as well, to a lesser extent. Chakotay is less clear; he did choose Starfleet, but also chose to leave, disillusioned. Paris never really cared for Starfleet--he mainly joined because of family pressure, and even after seven years back in the service his loyalty is to people, not institutions. Torres... despite having gone to the Academy and eventually meshing with the Voyager crew, I can't imagine her staying with the service given a choice. And the Doctor and Seven, by their unique natures and personal goals, have other things to do than to go back to being crewpeople aboard a starship. Of the eight main cast who came back, I'd say half if not more wouldn't simply 're-enlist' and ship out again. (Of the measly amount of secondary cast, however, I could see Barclay and Icheb, once he graduates, being part of a 'leftover' Voyager crew.)

I think it can be generally agreed that the Enterprise crew(s) staying together was never realistic, that it was a conceit like the Enterprise always being the only ship available to solve this week's dilemna, but it was a conceit I had no real problem accepting because it maintained the series coherence. With the Voyager crew, however, it's a conceit that I couldn't accept, because more than fudging with the setting, it just wouldn't be true to the characters.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

Couple of quick points:

1) Did the marquis all get pardoned towards the end of Voyager (did I dream that?)? Because I was quite looking forward to the crew getting home and a couple of them being slapped in chains because of shady events from their past and the story possibilities that would allow.

2) I most certainly agree about the Doctor, he's never known any life beyond the ship and it would be very odd for him as a "person" not to want to expand his horizons and see what's possible.

Obviously some will say "but what are they doing if they aren't on the ship?" but that misses the point to me - other sci-fi novels and series manage to have overlapping casts that are not all stuck in the same place - are we saying that the Star Trek universe isn't flexible enough and broad enough that characters can't do interesting things (to the reader) that doesn't involve them standing around shouting "shields at 50%!"?

It's pretty sad if we are.

 

[joyofvgr]

I guess my point, ultimately, is that it seems unfair to treat any other crew with a double-standard when you have the TOS crew basically staying together unchanged for twenty-five years because of an ostensibly special reason. In the case of the VGR crew, one might argue they had an equally special bond (perhaps even moreso) due to their circumstances, even if that circumstance lasted for only seven years.

Exactly, especially since we haven't even seen them all together since their initial return.

My problem with this is that it's 2009 - TOS is from a different era and although the films went on longer than they should, I can't reconcile the more mature story-telling of the books with the idea that nobody would want to get off the ship once it returns to the Alpha Quadrant. I just don't find any emotional truth to it. It's all too comic-book for my tastes.

Which is why they would need a story to warrant such a return. IMO, they don't even all have to be on the same ship necessarily, just working together towards a common goal would be nice, with perhaps more than one ship and even a space station involved. There are plenty of ways to get them together and perhaps Beyer did that in Full Circle before Janeway's death, but I really don't know.

 

[Thrawn]

Exactly, especially since we haven't even seen them all together since their initial return.

My problem with this is that it's 2009 - TOS is from a different era and although the films went on longer than they should, I can't reconcile the more mature story-telling of the books with the idea that nobody would want to get off the ship once it returns to the Alpha Quadrant. I just don't find any emotional truth to it. It's all too comic-book for my tastes.

Which is why they would need a story to warrant such a return. IMO, they don't even all have to be on the same ship necessarily, just working together towards a common goal would be nice, with perhaps more than one ship and even a space station involved. There are plenty of ways to get them together and perhaps Beyer did that in Full Circle before Janeway's death, but I really don't know.

Spoiler: Does the crew all work together in Full Circle pre-Janeway's death?

Yes, they do.

 

[Praetor]

I guess my point, ultimately, is that it seems unfair to treat any other crew with a double-standard when you have the TOS crew basically staying together unchanged for twenty-five years because of an ostensibly special reason. In the case of the VGR crew, one might argue they had an equally special bond (perhaps even moreso) due to their circumstances, even if that circumstance lasted for only seven years.

Exactly, especially since we haven't even seen them all together since their initial return.

My problem with this is that it's 2009 - TOS is from a different era and although the films went on longer than they should, I can't reconcile the more mature story-telling of the books with the idea that nobody would want to get off the ship once it returns to the Alpha Quadrant. I just don't find any emotional truth to it. It's all too comic-book for my tastes.

Well, that's kind of my point. To me, it's illogical to exempt one from the standard and not the other, regardless of era. I'd be inclined to think the Voyager crew would want a good bit of shore time after their mission/stranding, special bond or not. I would say the same about the TOS crew, yet that was not how it was depicted. The reason? They wanted to tell more stories/it was what the fans wanted. They forced the TOS crew back together despite the realistic concerns that should have driven them apart.

 

[Steve Roby]

And where do you get 'three years apart' between TFF and TUC?

As I remember it, not only had Sulu been out cataloguing gaseous anomalies or whatever for three years, Kirk had no idea that Spock had been involved in any kind of diplomatic efforts with the Klingons. You'd think he might have mentioned it if he and Kirk had been serving together up to then.

I agree with Trent's point that the Voyager crew was not a bunch of Starfleet lifers and some wouldn't want to go back out; it's one I've made myself around here once or twice already.

 

[Therin of Andor]

it's when you start introducing author-inspired characters into stories and builiding adventures around them that fans can get turned off. b/c those characters usually don't translate from author to author.

I don't think that applies at all. DC Comics' Konom, Bryce, Sherwood and Bearclaw were very popular with readers of Series I, and those characters would probably still be around if Richard Arnold hadn't been vetting manuscripts when the licenses were renewed. When you're stuck with a core canonical group of regulars who are all commanders and captains, having Saavik and some recent graduates around is very useful.

The new additions to the DS9 Relaunch - Vaughn, Shar, Taran'atar, Tenmei - have also been very popular. Ditto the team over on Titan. All three of these examples given have been multi-author efforts.

are we saying that the Star Trek universe isn't flexible enough.

Some of the fans aren't flexible enough.

 

[Praetor]

And where do you get 'three years apart' between TFF and TUC?

As I remember it, not only had Sulu been out cataloguing gaseous anomalies or whatever for three years, Kirk had no idea that Spock had been involved in any kind of diplomatic efforts with the Klingons. You'd think he might have mentioned it if he and Kirk had been serving together up to then.

But just because Sulu had been out for three years prior the start of the movie doesn't mean that the rest of the crew weren't together up til then. Then the part with the briefing at Starfleet with Spock (and indeed the bulk of the movie) takes place several months later, as established by Spock's dialog.

I agree with Trent's point that the Voyager crew was not a bunch of Starfleet lifers and some wouldn't want to go back out; it's one I've made myself around here once or twice already.

Well, some of the Maquis weren't at least. Some of the Maquis, like Chakotay, basically left Starfleet over the DMZ issue. (Which if you consider the fact that the DMZ issue was invented to invent the Maquis pulls the carpet out from under his character being an 'outsider' a bit. )

 

[JoeZhang]

The new additions to the DS9 Relaunch - Vaughn, Shar, Taran'atar, Tenmei - have also been very popular. Ditto the team over on Titan. All three of these examples given have been multi-author efforts.

Vaughn is a particular favourite of mine.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

The new additions to the DS9 Relaunch - Vaughn, Shar, Taran'atar, Tenmei - have also been very popular. Ditto the team over on Titan. All three of these examples given have been multi-author efforts.

Vaughn is a particular favourite of mine.

Well he is pretty badass.