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Poll: Bring Janeway back?

Should Janeway be brought back?


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I would imagine that anyone in the entertainment industry would have their pulse on a particular fanbase, just to get an idea of what might be marketable. That's simply good business. The number of posts both Kirsten Beyer and Margaret Clark have made to these boards in recent days shows that they do infact care about what is posted here.

I don't honestly know if there is someone at Pocket whose job it is to follow the desires of a particular fanbase. I'm certain there is someone whose job it is to determine how well particular products are selling. Whether they backtrack from there to try and figure out why or how all that might work....I have no idea.

Here's what I can tell you about the process by the time it gets to the writer. An editor says, "We need a new story." They might or might not also add things like, "By the end of the story x, y and z need to have happened to set up this other story or to tie in with something previously established." We are then asked to provide the editor with an outline of the best possible story we can that honors the specific requirements they made of us.

That's it. Really, honest to God, there has been no discussion, at least for me in the few times I've done this, about doing or not doing something because of fan reaction. I may have worried or wondered about it in my secret heart of hearts because even though I am a writer, before I was that, I was a fan and that fan still lives in me and from time to time offers suggestions. And maybe this is something the editors talk about amongst themselves before they even approach an author.

Point is, by the time it gets to me, the author, my only job is to look at the given circumstances and tell the best possible story I can. How people are going to react to it doesn't get a vote when crafting the story because there is ultimately no way to know. We can make an educated guess...but that kind of thinking just takes too much time away from all the time we need to spend figuring out the damn story.

And for what it's worth, I come to these boards because it is fun to interact directly with people who love these stories and these people as much as I do. That's been hard to do over the last several months for a variety of reasons and lately I'm just trying to correct as many outright factual errors as I can in the interest of not allowing them to get blown evern more out of proportion. And granted, I don't read all the threads, but by my count Margaret has been here once since December to correct one factual error herself.


So a little more fact checking...

For a long time Janeway fans stayed away from boards like these, so it appeared that there weren't that many that really cared about the character. As a result the character was killed off...

What's wrong here is the direct connection you make between the appearance that there weren't many fans of Janeway and the result being the choice to kill off the character. These two things have absolutely no relation to one another. Number of fans, decibel level of fans, not at all a consideration. Telling the most compelling story we thought we could was the only consideration. That applies to Peter and Margaret when they decided Janeway would die in Before Dishonor, and me and Marco when we decided to face the reality of that decision rather than rush to take it back. One felt meaningful and respectful. The other felt cheap and unworthy of the character. Your mileage will most certainly vary.

...but this mob mentality of piling on people who are rightly or wrongly genuinely upset seems pretty callous and hypocritical from fans of a sci-fi series that sought to understand and empathize with other's frailties.

if you can't or don't want to understand them, the next best thing is to just leave those in grief alone.

Blitz, have you read all of these threads going back to the very first Before Dishonor thread which was maybe eight months ago now? I get that if you haven't, a lot of the comments you are seeing might seem dismissive and rude. I think the sheer tonnage of hammering the authors, editors, and Pocket have taken, the repititous nature of many posts, and their determination to repeat actual factual errors which have already been pointed out to them makes the tone here on this subject a little more understandable, though as you rightly point out, probably not as productive as one might hope.

We should also keep in mind that this is all this anger is an intentional effect. Barring hopeless naiveté, editorial has to have know that offing Janeway (and in fashion that has appeared derogatory, independently to a number of people, although it's possible they somehow failed to ever spot the impression the text could give) would anger people.

I don't want to speak for them, but yes, I'm sure the editorial staff knew that killing Janeway was going to upset some fans. That's not a huge leap of logic. But when you say things like "this anger is an intentional effect" to me it kind of feeds the absolutely false sense some have that the editors were sitting around asking themsleves...what's the best way to piss off this fan group? Intentional maybe in the sense that anyone with a brain could have seen it coming. But certainly not intentional in the sense that anyone wanted to anger people. The intention was to tell the best possible story we could. Fan anger in this case is an unavoidable consequence, given the creative direction chosen.

All I can tell you is that when we make creative choices, we know we have to live with all of the consequences. But as long as we feel that the story that resulted from the choice was worth the time and energy, honors the character and the spirit of Trek, and moves the characters along in an organic way, we rest content that we have done our job.

Sorry to put a dampener on your little theory there, but Kes had a life span of NINE and not seven years.

Early publicity releases did specify seven years.

Again - maybe so, but on the show it was ALWAYS nine years.

Yeah...wasn't Kes 2 when she joined the crew? Might that be where the confusion is? Her life span was 9 years. She was 2 when we met her so she had 7 years left to live...presumably the 7 years the show as supposed to run.

That's even more true than you think. In the last 10 years, I lost five family members, two friends, and a colleague. I don't need to be taught the lesson of loss and death, I already experienced it more than I care for.
So Lynx is quite right in that regard. Writers should be writing books to entertain us, not to teach us lessons about death; real life is a much better teacher than they could ever hope to be.

I would never in my wildest dreams presume to try and teach anyone anything through my writing. There's this scene from The West Wing that has always resonated with me. It's from "The U.S. Poet Laureate." The poet in question says that as a writer, her job is to hold the audience's attention for as long as they have asked for it. If they stumble into truth, they got lucky.

For me that's accurate. First and foremost, I write to entertain...or hold your attention. In order to do that, I think we have to present experiences as accurately as possible. If we don't, those who have lived through it smell a rat and get pulled out of the story. But don't confuse the subject matter, in this case, treating Janeway's death as a fact and presenting realistic effects, with a presumption on my part that I could teach anyone who has experienced death anything they don't already know about.




This REALLY about you trying to force everyone endure what you like ONLY because you like it.

The same could be said about Pocket and the Trek writers, though. They wanted Janeway dead....

We did, every single one of us. We gathered in a tribal council area in the basement of the Pocket offices, and cast our votes on ballots made from pages taken out of extra copies of the Spirit Walk duology, and her name came up with the most votes. For the record, Archer was actually the first pick, but he had the hidden immunity idol.

Bastard.


Dayton, you owe me another keyboard. That's two by my count now. Well played.

Best,
Kirsten Beyer

PS - Anyone who thinks we do this for the money has never seen a media tie in contract. Only a fraction of a percentage of all media-tie in writers don't have to have another full time job to support their writing habit and pay their rent. This is a labor of love and it is an honor to be asked. But it has absolutely nothing to do with the money.
 
I see a graph where the numbers continue on a downward trend to miniscule, and seem to indicate that VOY was, indeed, less popular than DS9, which is exactly what I said.

Funny, I see the same graph and the downward slope, but I interpret it a slight bit different than you.

You choose to interpret the reasons behind this slope as being because Voyager was not as great a show as DS9. However, I tend to think that the result might have been very different if Voyager had been produced and aired before DS9. To me it seems like the general public lost interest in Star Trek and the downward slope is simply a sign of this.
 
IIRC, at some point, John Ordover mentioned that judging by sales, putting Picard on the cover caused the biggest bump...or something like that. Judging by sales, Picard is the most popular captain. And that's what they care about.

Yep. When Wil Wheaton was on TNG, he got the most fanmail, followed by Data, but Picard on ST novels was hard to beat.

So why does my Wesley& Jean-Luc: their secret love pitch get no support from pocket? huh? huh?

The last time I submitted it, I included pictures and everything but to no response.
 
I see a graph where the numbers continue on a downward trend to miniscule, and seem to indicate that VOY was, indeed, less popular than DS9, which is exactly what I said.

Funny, I see the same graph and the downward slope, but I interpret it a slight bit different than you.

You choose to interpret the reasons behind this slope as being because Voyager was not as great a show as DS9. However, I tend to think that the result might have been very different if Voyager had been produced and aired before DS9. To me it seems like the general public lost interest in Star Trek and the downward slope is simply a sign of this.

Are you actually reading his posts? He states that it's partly because it was on a network not available to all viewers not because it was "worse", something that is well know.

Having said that I thought the show sucked donkey's balls. :techman:
 
Kirsten Beyer said:
- Anyone who thinks we do this for the money has never seen a media tie in contract. Only a fraction of a percentage of all media-tie in writers don't have to have another full time job to support their writing habit and pay their rent. This is a labor of love and it is an honor to be asked. But it has absolutely nothing to do with the money.

Quoted for truth, sistah; and I say that as one of the "fraction".
 
Are you actually reading his posts? He states that it's partly because it was on a network not available to all viewers not because it was "worse", something that is well know.

The words 'less popular' was used and those are the ones I reacted to. I simply state that it might have zero to do with the show and everything to do with the general public being fed up with Star Trek.

But why am I even replying to you? You're usually just looking for trouble and I couldn't care less what you think of me. :rolleyes:
 
Gorf - that's almost, but not quite, true.

I know and that's ok. In fact I don't think anybody of us will ever be completely true on almost anything - we simply don't have all the details, but at least I tried my best to formulate a constructive reply. :)

I've read soooooooooooooooooo many times that it's not about the money and each time I want to scream to the heavens "then just hand them over for free!!!" :cool:

I'd be willing to read a free copy of "Full Circle" but somehow I don't think that will happen cause Pocket Books will want their money. ;)

For the writers - I do know you're not paid a fortune, but there IS still money involved, even if most go to the publisher. :(
 
I've read soooooooooooooooooo many times that it's not about the money and each time I want to scream to the heavens "then just hand them over for free!!!" :cool:

I'd be willing to read a free copy of "Full Circle" but somehow I don't think that will happen cause Pocket Books will want their money. ;)

Of course pocket books want money, they are after all a business. As such they have to make a profit in order to be able to continue to operate and satisfy their shareholders. ;)
 
Writers may write because they enjoy it, but I think it's a bit too simplistic to say that they do so entirely for themselves,

Ask some.

It's true that readers don't dictate the contents of a book, but a writer can't survive without his or her readers.
"Before Dishonor" sold incredibly well, and those who've read "Full Circle" are predicting solid sales.

I've got a job and most of the time I enjoy it, but lets face it - I'm in it for the money. If I wasnt, I'd be doing it for free and obviously I'm not cause I've got rent to pay like everybody else.

Just like these writers. :)
No, most professional writers have day jobs to pay their bills, and their medical insurance. Royalties from books are like cream. And even if they weren't getting money for writing, most/many writers write because they simply must write.
 
But why on earth do you choose to focus on details that might have been part of a draft at some point, but were never carried out on the show?

Because the original concepts were much more vibrant than the watered-down versions we eventually got. And that made me sad, because I really liked the original concepts. Even the core premise of ongoing conflict between the Starfleet and Maquis personnel was abandoned after the first couple of episodes. Realistic wear and tear on the ship? That was dropped as well. Consistency in the way Janeway was written? Nope. Voyager (the series) is a classic example of an idea that strayed too far from what it was intended to be. That's why I'm anxious for the upcoming books: new concept, new direction, new opportunity.
 
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But why on earth do you choose to focus on details that might have been part of a draft at some point, but were never carried out on the show?

Because the original concepts were much more vibrant than the watered-down versions we eventually got. Even the core premise of ongoing conflict between the Starfleet and Maquis personnel was abandoned after the first couple of episodes. Realistic wear and tear on the ship? That was dropped as well. Consistency in the way Janeway was written? Nope. Voyager (the series) is a classic example of an idea that strayed too far from what it was intended to be. That's why I'm anxious for the upcoming books: new concept, new direction, new opportunity.

There was one consistant character on the show for seven years, sure her injuries were played down, but she still managed to deliver, she never really changed, but still managed to impress week after week and got the job done, and I for one want to know how she's doing adapting to life in the AQ (good old Voyager)
 
Finally....as the question has now been raised about why...if an Admiral was going to be part of the ongoing story it could not have been Admiral Janeway....the truth is that the Admiral character was not conceived until after Before Dishonor was in print. Prior to that, the story, as it had been developed to that point, did not include an admiral, so there was never a chance for anyone to raise their hand and say...Hey, don't kill Janeway...we need an admiral here.

Sorry.

Now...as you were.

Best,
Kirsten Beyer

Do you know how frustrating it is to hear that. That there could have been a role for her after all and of course for Chakotay too, but for whatever reason someone brilliantly decided that there was no role for her post endgame so she should be killed off. And now, when there is an author with some imagination taken over the writing of the book, it was too late because Janeway is dead and Chak is mourning! :rolleyes:

I gues that means the plan over at Pocket is: There is no plan! Not even a pla...
 
You choose to interpret the reasons behind this slope as being because Voyager was not as great a show as DS9. However, I tend to think that the result might have been very different if Voyager had been produced and aired before DS9. To me it seems like the general public lost interest in Star Trek and the downward slope is simply a sign of this.

I said it was less popular. The ratings figures prove it was watched by less people.

And yes, the people who loved TNG did not last the distance after "their" show ended, and not as many followed the shows that came after TNG. Again, the ratings graph demonstrates this.
 
I said it was less popular. The ratings figures prove it was watched by less people.

And yes, the people who loved TNG did not last the distance after "their" show ended, and not as many followed the shows that came after TNG. Again, the ratings graph demonstrates this.

I know and I apologize for jumping the gun. Guess it's just that 'less popular' has been equalled with 'worse' so many times that... oh well - sorry.

Anyway, I thought it was an interesting point.
 
.

But why am I even replying to you? You're usually just looking for trouble and I couldn't care less what you think of me. :rolleyes:

Dude, what's done in TNZ stays in TNZ (If you don't post in TNZ, I have no idea who you are).
 
And now, when there is an author with some imagination taken over the writing of the book, it was too late because Janeway is dead and Chak is mourning! :rolleyes:

Here's an idea! Read the book, enjoy Kirsten Beyer's writing, follow the storyline through the next few books, and see if Janeway ever returns. Meanwhile, enjoy learning about how the characters will cope with their loss, showing all their strengths, finding new strengths and weaknesses within themselves, and whatever else Ms Beyer brings to the table.

Essentially, you are demanding to know the outcome of a story arc that hasn't even been completed by the author yet, refusing to even get involved with it, just in case the eventual resolution might not meet with your approval.

Trust
a professional author to tell the best story she can, in the way she wants to tell it.
 
I don't want to speak for them, but yes, I'm sure the editorial staff knew that killing Janeway was going to upset some fans. That's not a huge leap of logic. But when you say things like "this anger is an intentional effect" to me it kind of feeds the absolutely false sense some have that the editors were sitting around asking themsleves...what's the best way to piss off this fan group? Intentional maybe in the sense that anyone with a brain could have seen it coming. But certainly not intentional in the sense that anyone wanted to anger people. The intention was to tell the best possible story we could. Fan anger in this case is an unavoidable consequence, given the creative direction chosen.

I certainly don't think angering the fans was the reason behind the decision; if it were, there are far more popular and less controversial characters that could have been led to the abattoir; although, like I said, controversy never hurts is drawing attention to the product (unless you get enough people sufficiently pissed for a boycott, but that's never going to happen here, certain individuals' delusions of grandeur notwithstanding). My point was that it is disingenuous for certain individuals on this board (not yourself) to complain about the presence and vociferousness of other individuals upset about the decision, when it was always an inevitable consequence that angry people would be produced, and of course angry people tend to express that sentiment (albeit not always in the most logical or polite fashion, as we've seen). One reaps what one has sowed. Them who support this decision should own up to the inevitability of the reaction instead of trying to dismiss it, as an equitable taking of the bad that results from the decision along with the benefits they believe will accrue. Which isn't to say false apprehensions shouldn't be corrected, or conflicting perspectives debated; but attempts to quell the conversation altogether because it has become tiresome to some seems to me somewhat hypocritical.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
 
And now, when there is an author with some imagination taken over the writing of the book, it was too late because Janeway is dead and Chak is mourning! :rolleyes:

Having read homecoming/spirit walk i'm pretty sure that Ms Golden 'imagined' up the scenarios in these books so...
 
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