Poll: Bring Janeway back?

[Therin of Andor]

Nope, Brit, is a betrayed old woman, and it is tedious. If you don't want to see me post then stop these kinds of threads. As long as someone is here promoting a dead Janeway, I'll be here yelling no way. It's time you understood that there are people that have different wants, needs and opinions than you do.

Brit, we were told that we had to stop "shutting down" the opinions of Janeway fans because you were all here to stay. So it's up to you if you choose to keep responding, because there'll always be new people popping in to ask the regulars how they feel about the plots of all the licensed ST fiction.

So yell away. Our point is, we know your opinions on the matter. We don't necessarily agree. So why keep yelling? Because we might change our minds?

 

[Gorf]

Question is Therin - why do you? If you're so tired of us, why not simply ignore us.

 

[DimesDan]

And while we're at it, have you written a letter to Pocket about this, or are you just ignoring the advice of the people that work there on purpose?

I have - 4 letters in fact and from Europe no less. Now, does that entitle me to bitch forever?

From Europe? I know the EU wants to be one big country but it ain't yet, so where in Europe are you?

 

[Dark Gilligan]

And I don't think that a prolonging of her lifespan would have ruined the character in any way. On the contrary, it would have made the character even better.

I know this is a thread about Janeway, but...

A seven-year lifespan for Kes was not arbitrary. Voyager was planned to have a seven-year run, following in TNG's pattern. Kes was created with seven years to mirror the arc of Voyager's return to Earth. She and the crew would grow and mature together. And when Voyager finally made it home Kes would pass, she and the crew having reached the end of their journeys. Extending her lifespan would not have made Kes better, it would have erased the one aspect that truly made her unique.

 

[DimesDan]

And I don't think that a prolonging of her lifespan would have ruined the character in any way. On the contrary, it would have made the character even better.

I know this is a thread about Janeway, but...

A seven-year lifespan for Kes was not arbitrary. Voyager was planned to have a seven-year run, following in TNG's pattern. Kes was created with seven years to mirror the arc of Voyager's return to Earth. She and the crew would grow and mature together. And when Voyager finally made it home Kes would pass, she and the crew having reached the end of their journeys. Extending her lifespan would not have made Kes better, it would have erased the one aspect that truly made her unique.

Sorry to put a dampener on your little theory there, but Kes had a life span of NINE and not seven years.

 

[IrritatingGameOfChess]

I wish people could relax and have fun with this stuff. There's enough anger and fighting in the world as it is.

You have a killer white shark as your avatar and an intriguing nom de plume that suggests frustration, and yet here you are advocating universal peace should break out among active combatants.

Sounds just like the United Nations these days. Sadly, I suspect your call will be just as inaffective.

Well, the white shark is a predator, yes, but one that is more misunderstood than anything. It's no more "evil" than a bear in the wild. It doesn't purposefully seek out people to destroy. I drew that picture because I feel sharks are beautiful animals.

Anyway, back on topic: yes, you're right. My call will be ineffective. It's sad.

 

[Gorf]

From Europe? I know the EU wants to be one big country but it ain't yet, so where in Europe are you?

I'm not so sure we all want to be one big country. I think we'd benefit from it financially, but we like our individuality too much for it to ever happen.

I'm from Denmark though and probably the only Star Trek fan here.

And on a different note...I went to a local book store today and got myself a couple of crime books - in English of course as I prefer to read the original, not some poor translation - and I couldn't help myself. I had to take a look at the sci-fi section. 5 big book cases and not a single Star Trek book. 8-9 years ago I didn't expect to find a single one and yet I found several - today...none.

In my mind there's no question why - Star Trek has gone downhill.

 

[Therin of Andor]

4th least?? not wanting to start an argument, but that's not what i've seen.

Well, it's true. Repeats of TOS in early primetime received huge ratings in syndication in the 70s. TNG performed to unprecedented figures for first-run drama in syndication. For its last five years it was the top-rating one hour of syndicated drama. DS9's figures were much lower than TNG's. VOY was on the Paramount network and, although it was their top-rated one hour of drama, the figures were much smaller than DS9. ENT was also on the Paramount network, and its figures were even smaller than VOY's.

 

[Therin of Andor]

In my mind there's no question why - Star Trek has gone downhill.

Or... supplies in bookshops were so unreliable, the diehard fans in your country buy their ST stuff from Amazon.

Sorry to put a dampener on your little theory there, but Kes had a life span of NINE and not seven years.

Early publicity releases did specify a seven-year lifespan. As various scripts became episodes, the time became nine years. By then, I think the writers were thinking that an elderly Kes might have succumbed in the finale... if VOY replicated TNG's success and got a full seven seasons.

 

[Gorf]

Well, the white shark is a predator, yes, but one that is more misunderstood than anything. It's no more "evil" than a bear in the wild. It doesn't purposefully seek out people to destroy. I drew that picture because I feel sharks are beautiful animals.

Completely off topic, but I absolutely agree with you. I have or rather had a horrible phobia of sharks and 'water' once. I couldn't watch anything that took place under the surface even knowing that no sharks would appear, even submarines and shots that showed both water and air would and will freak me out (now mostly when I don't expect it). I know - incredibly strange, but...well, I started treating myself. Took about 20 years for me to reach the point where I am now, but I'm now able to see sharks for what they are - incredibly beautiful and misunderstood creatures.

Unfortunately, they are also very inquisitive and since they usually investigate with their teeth and we're rather fragile...well sharks and humans don't mix.

BUT...they are still incredible beings and I can't get enough of shark shows, but it has to be a documentary where I know their every move - no Hollywood stuff for me.

Sorry for sidestepping.

 

[Gorf]

In my mind there's no question why - Star Trek has gone downhill.

Or... supplies in bookshops were so unreliable, the diehard fans in your country buy their ST stuff from Amazon.

Maybe so, but since this has been reported from fans in many American and Canadien cities as well, I doubt it.

Sorry to put a dampener on your little theory there, but Kes had a life span of NINE and not seven years.

Early publicity releases did specify seven years.

Again - maybe so, but on the show it was ALWAYS nine years.

 

[Lynx]

how about we just hit a big fat reset button.

since some think janeway violated some big fat temporal prime directive during "endgame." someone should just write a story where captain braxton (yeah i know he's in jail) or whoever and stop the older admiral janeway from carrying out her mission. this way everyone will be alive again and back in the DQ. it's win-win (until seven dies and tuvok goes mad, then we'll with that), janeway lives to a ripe old age, we get more DQ adventures and some BQ ones as well, and all will be right with the world (except for kes fans b/c she'll be dead at this point).

I like your suggestion. As for Kes, there is surely a way to prolong her lifespan and bring her back to the crew.

 

[Captain Gandalf]

Besides that, some of them who might be angry over the death of a fictional character might even have had that fiction as a place and pastime to get away from real losses in real life as well.

That's even more true than you think. In the last 10 years, I lost five family members, two friends, and a colleague. I don't need to be taught the lesson of loss and death, I already experienced it more than I care for.
So Lynx is quite right in that regard. Writers should be writing books to entertain us, not to teach us lessons about death; real life is a much better teacher than they could ever hope to be.
And forgive me for saying so, but whatever explanation they come up with for killing off Janeway, we all know the primary reason is to sell books. Offing main characters is a cheap way to do that, and people are interested for the same reason they stop or slow down on the highway when they see there has been an accident : to see the blood and gore and be happy it's not them in the wrecked car.

 

[Lynx]

And I don't think that a prolonging of her lifespan would have ruined the character in any way. On the contrary, it would have made the character even better.

I know this is a thread about Janeway, but...

A seven-year lifespan for Kes was not arbitrary. Voyager was planned to have a seven-year run, following in TNG's pattern. Kes was created with seven years to mirror the arc of Voyager's return to Earth. She and the crew would grow and mature together. And when Voyager finally made it home Kes would pass, she and the crew having reached the end of their journeys. Extending her lifespan would not have made Kes better, it would have erased the one aspect that truly made her unique.

Sorry to put a dampener on your little theory there, but Kes had a life span of NINE and not seven years.

Yes.

Not to mention that I've never seen any evidence that kes's lifespan in any way should match Voyager's journey home. In fact, I don't think those in charge of the TV show had any plans at all for any of the characters which actually explains the lack of character development or in some cases the weird character development there was.

In Kes's case it was more like "oh, we have never had that before in Star Trek" when it came to the lifespan, the "one child syndrome" and the utterly silly mating procedure they came up with for the species. When they realized that it didn't work, it was more like "oh, never mind, the viewers won't notice". The life-span was mostly forgotten and ignored in most episodes and instead there were hints for a prolonging of her lifespan, most notably in "Cold Fire" and I'm sure that they would have came up with such a solution because it would help them to avoid certain problems, among them the problems with make-up.

As for the character Kes, what made her unique and interesting was her personality and her mental abilities, not the lifespan. That was only an obstacle for the character.

(OK, sorry for getting off-topic here but I just had to add those comments).

 

[Lynx]

Besides that, some of them who might be angry over the death of a fictional character might even have had that fiction as a place and pastime to get away from real losses in real life as well.

That's even more true than you think. In the last 10 years, I lost five family members, two friends, and a colleague. I don't need to be taught the lesson of loss and death, I already experienced it more than I care for.
So Lynx is quite right in that regard. Writers should be writing books to entertain us, not to teach us lessons about death; real life is a much better teacher than they could ever hope to be.
And forgive me for saying so, but whatever explanation they come up with for killing off Janeway, we all know the primary reason is to sell books. Offing main characters is a cheap way to do that, and people are interested for the same reason they stop or slow down on the highway when they see there has been an accident : to see the blood and gore and be happy it's not them in the wrecked car.

Well, I do have a problem with those who slow down to see where there has been an accident. If they can't and won't help the victims in any way, then they should just get the **** out of there.

As for selling books, I do think that killing off Janeway will hurt them in the long run. They might get a certain temporary effect by doing that but at the same time they will alienate the Janeway fans and they also lose a great character who could have contributed a lot to future stories.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Question is Therin - why do you? If you're so tired of us, why not simply ignore us.

I respond to any new aspects of the debate, or attempt to clarify things, or provide new evidence, if I think comments seem to be unclear or misguided.

When did I say I was tired of you? I'm a bit amazed that there are people who don't read the novels, but still feel a need to demand that the novels go more in a direction they'd prefer, even though they say they'd be unlikely to read them anyway.

I do remember the early 80s, when I was reading the Pocket novels as they came out, and scrambling to find second hand Bantams and Ballantines to read between Pocket releases, and meeting ST fans who were so dismissive of the licensed fiction because they preferred fanfic. Now, as someone who wrote, edited, published and illustrated ST fanfic over several decades, there's much to enjoy, and I learned how to isolate the stories worth buying - but there's also an awful lots of really bad, unedited wish fulfillment fanfic out there.

While there are ST novels that have been disappointing, overall I do trust the Pocket staff to continue to turn out interesting ST fiction, and am willing to trust their judgement, even when a storyline goes in a direction I, personally, wouldn't have chosen.

 

[Therin of Andor]

They might get a certain temporary effect by doing that but at the same time they will alienate the Janeway fans and they also lose a great character who could have contributed a lot to future stories.

By which time the character will return, or...

there'll be novels set during the years of the TV series. Or are you saying that no one will buy new Janeway TV series books because they know she dies sometime in the future?

Meanwhile, her death will contribute much to "Full Circle". People who've already read it are saying that it's an excellent manuscript!

 

[teya]

In my mind there's no question why - Star Trek has gone downhill.

Or... supplies in bookshops were so unreliable, the diehard fans in your country buy their ST stuff from Amazon.

Maybe so, but since this has been reported from fans in many American and Canadien cities as well, I doubt it.

Supplies in bookstores are unreliable in the US. A lot is dependent on the regional market.

Most sci-fi readers I know get their books online, because sci-fi is a niche market, bookstores are not as likely to stock.

 

[Lynx]

They might get a certain temporary effect by doing that but at the same time they will alienate the Janeway fans and they also lose a great character who could have contributed a lot to future stories.

By which time the character will return, or...

there'll be novels set during the years of the TV series. Or are you saying that no one will buy new Janeway TV series books because they know she dies sometime in the future?

Meanwhile, her death will contribute much to "Full Circle". People who've already read it are saying that it's an excellent manuscript!

Let us just hope that she will return.

As for possible novels set during the years of the TV series, I do think that such novels would be more interesting for many fans. But I do think that it could be difficult to squeeze in more episodes and events in the rather limited timeline which Voyager has. I know, since I made a timeline for seasons 1-3 in which I included both TV episodes and books and it was difficult to find space in time for it. Besides that, adapting stories to the ongoing events in that timeline might be a bit obstructing for the writers as well.

I must also add that I have a feeling that those who have read the manuscript for "Full Circle" are parts of the "fanclub" who are more fans of the writers than the different series. I still think that killing off Janeway will alienate many Janeway and Voyager fans and it will definitely not bring in or bring back those who have abandoned the books for fanfic.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Writers should be writing books to entertain us, not to teach us lessons about death; real life is a much better teacher than they could ever hope to be.

Writers of fiction write primarily for themselves. If their readers like what they've written, then that's a bonus. If some readers choose to take lessons from certain books they've read, that's their choice. But every book offers hundreds of possible interpretations. We don't know for sure what an author's intentions really were unless they do an interview and tell us.

Since when do audiences direct to writers that they must only write certain types of themes? Or that they must not kill off certain characters? Or must always provide happy endings, so that no readers will be offended.

A writer can't ever know the personal circumstances of every reader, in order to write so that no reader will identify too closely with certain storylines.