Poll: Bring Janeway back?

[Therin of Andor]

It would be like having Ringo Starr and Paul McCartney perform on stage with two rather unknown geezers and call that new band The Beatles.

Um, you do realise, don't you, that Ringo Starr was the replacement for original Beatle, Pete Best?

Wikipedia: Best has never been told why he was dismissed from The Beatles, as the only reason Epstein gave was, "The lads don't want you in the group anymore".

BTW, Aussie crowds didn't seem to care when Ringo was replaced by Jimmy Nicol for the beginning of their 1964 Australian tour, either.

 

[Lynx]

It would be like having Ringo Starr and Paul McCartney perform on stage with two rather unknown geezers and call that new band The Beatles.

Um, you do realise, don't you, that Ringo Starr was the replacement for original Beatle, Pete Best?

Wikipedia: Best has never been told why he was dismissed from The Beatles, as the only reason Epstein gave was, "The lads don't want you in the group anymore".

I'm familiar with those events since I do have Pete Best's biography in my bookshelf.

The impression I get from the book is that Epstein's explanation is the correct one. The other members of the band had become friends with Ringo in Hamburg and simply liked him better, therefore Pete was dumped.

Many years later, John Lennon admitted that they had treated Pete very bad.

The funny thing is that the firing was officially described as a "mutual agreement" and that Pete had left "of his own free will". Well, I always laugh when I see such official statements about someone leaving a band (or a TV series).

However, in this case I think that we have to compere Pete with Cavit, Stadi or Fitzgerald while the Voyager crew we saw in "Caretaker" and onwards can be compared with the Beatles after they became famous.

 

[Therin of Andor]

However, in this case I think that we have to compere Pete with Cavit, Stadi or Fitzgerald while the Voyager crew we saw in "Caretaker" and onwards can be compared with the Beatles after they became famous.

And canceled the famous, highly successful Australasian tour due to Ringo's tonsils?

 

[LaBarre]

Lynx, in various threads now you've indicated that you really didn't like the Voyager tv series post season 3. You watched "Fury" at some later date but that was pretty much the end as far as you were concerned with canon Voyager.

You've also said that you have long regarded the Voyager novels as canon, but have been sorely disappointed with them for a long time now (way before the events of the relaunch).

You are now deeply upset - as is your right - that in the relaunch, Janeway is a) apparently killed, b) apparently killed in a non-Voyager novel, and c) apparently killed in such a way as to constitute, in your view, meaningless "character destruction."

I know from your posts, that you write Voyager fanfic - and enjoy fanfic written by others - that revolves around the "original" Voyager crew.

I know from what you've stated that you don't want to read anything about the adventures of a "bogus" Voyager crew, by which you seem to mean any crew that does not include ALL the Voyager characters who made up the crew as of Season 3 of the tv series.

I know that despite your view that the Voyager novels constitute canon, that it is also your opinion that any novels that purport to be Voyager but do not feature a "live" Janeway are not really Voyager.

All of this has been quite eloquently stated and is of course a matter of personal preference, to which you are certainly entitled.

But no one's forcing you to read - never mind enjoy - past, present or future Voyager novels, and you've certainly been upfront about your intention to never read Ms Beyer's Full Circle.

I get it, Lynx. I do.

What I don't understand is why you seem so insistent on stopping the rest of us from exercising our own personal preference to keep an open mind with this new direction that TPTB are taking us on with Voyager - or at least to withhold critical judgement of how successful we think that direction is - until we've actually read the damn thing.

 

[Paris]

Of course Janeway should be brought back! She's the main character of Voyager. In fact, they shouldn't have killed her off in the first place.

OK, they wanted to attract new people. But will those new readers be as loyal as the old Voyager fans, those who took a liking to the TV series and have continued to follow the adventures of their favorites in the books? Pocket Books might up in the same situation as the rock band who changed style in order to attract new fans. They lost their old, longtime loyal fans and the new fans they managed to attract did abandon them after a while, looking for new, trendy things.

As for me, I could have been a potential buyer of the relaunch books. After all, there was a time when I did buy every Voyager book which was released. If they hadn't killed off Janeway and stated that her death was permanent, I would probably have bought at least some of the books, despite being dissatisfied with the split-up original crew.

4 relaunch books had already been released years before Janeway was killed, and I thought you said that you hadn't bought any of those books. Did you? Janeway was alive in them. I also recall you saying something along the lines of not being a Voyager fan post-Kes. If you weren't a fan anymore because of the lack of Kes, why would you be interested in the relaunch at all? LaBarre and I must know!

 

[captcalhoun]

if you're not going to read the bookos, Lynx, why are you even here?

 

[Paris]

if you're not going to read the books, Lynx, why are you even here?

Agreed. We obviously we all like to debate the finer points of trek-lit, but if you aren't a fan of trek-lit, why don't you just hang around boards that deal with Voyager in its TV years? I don't want to come across as an asshole but, is it just because you want everyone to hate post-Janeway Voyager as much as you?

 

[DimesDan]

if you're not going to read the books, Lynx, why are you even here?

Agreed. We obviously we all like to debate the finer points of trek-lit, but if you aren't a fan of trek-lit, why don't you just hang around boards that deal with Voyager in its TV years? I don't want to come across as an asshole but, is it just because you want everyone to hate post-Janeway Voyager as much as you?

In the same way that a vegetarian will try and make a carnivore stop heating their meat, because he feels it is wrong and you must abide by what he thinks.

To be honest, I hate this type of thinking and the abusive manner that Lynx has continually repeated himself is getting tiresome and I actually loath coming on here now for the constant back and forth on this bloody subject.

I advise you Lynx to actually open your eyes and read what Ms Beyer has said on the subject of Full Circle and before you make one more ill informed comment on it, read the fucking thing.

 

[rfmcdpei]

Wasn't her biggest fan, and as an Admiral she was pretty much written into a bit player anyways, so it was time. Only thing I'm miffed about, is that she didn't get a good send-off.
I'm sure she'll be back, but give it time. At least a dozen or so books to make the death count and not feel cheap.

This is a common complaint that I don't really understand. Janeway died saving the Alpha/Beta Quadrants (at least for a little bit) from a Borg threat. What exactly felt cheap about it? Is it just because she didn't die in a Voyager book? What would have been a good send off? She died and took a bunch of her greastest enemies with her...that's not all that shabby.

She didn't die in a Voyager book. And she was initially assimilated because she underestimated the Borg and basically disregarded all of the warnings from Seven. My memories of what she did after being assimilated are admittably vague, but up until that point she put in an extremely poor showing against a nemesis that up until this point she had a pretty good track record of going against.
I'm perfectly fine with her dying going up against the Borg, I just believe that it was poorly written.

I think it fits well into Janeway's habit of taking enormous risks with the Borg. This is a woman who was hunting down Borg scout ships for their transwarp coils. Making the (mis)judgement that a Borg ship that appeared to be dead was dead is something she was quite capable of doing.

Of course Janeway should be brought back! She's the main character of Voyager. In fact, they shouldn't have killed her off in the first place.

She's not nearly the only Voyager character that people care about. Seven? The Doctor? B'Elanna and Tom? Chakotay? Neelix? Kes?

Pocket Books made a business decision and so far, based on sales, it looks like they made a good one. Making prejudgements at this stage is quite premature.

As for me, I could have been a potential buyer of the relaunch books. After all, there was a time when I did buy every Voyager book which was released. If they hadn't killed off Janeway and stated that her death was permanent, I would probably have bought at least some of the books, despite being dissatisfied with the split-up original crew.

You've said that you consider the series' use of Kes, from the fourth season on, wildly inappropriate. Would you have been happy with books which dealt with that?

You've stated that you've no intention of buying the books and had no intention of buying these books for a while. Don't you see that makes your opinion irrelevant to Pocket Books, especially when sales are going well?

 

[Lynx]

Of course Janeway should be brought back! She's the main character of Voyager. In fact, they shouldn't have killed her off in the first place.

OK, they wanted to attract new people. But will those new readers be as loyal as the old Voyager fans, those who took a liking to the TV series and have continued to follow the adventures of their favorites in the books? Pocket Books might up in the same situation as the rock band who changed style in order to attract new fans. They lost their old, longtime loyal fans and the new fans they managed to attract did abandon them after a while, looking for new, trendy things.

As for me, I could have been a potential buyer of the relaunch books. After all, there was a time when I did buy every Voyager book which was released. If they hadn't killed off Janeway and stated that her death was permanent, I would probably have bought at least some of the books, despite being dissatisfied with the split-up original crew.

4 relaunch books had already been released years before Janeway was killed, and I thought you said that you hadn't bought any of those books. Did you? Janeway was alive in them. I also recall you saying something along the lines of not being a Voyager fan post-Kes. If you weren't a fan anymore because of the lack of Kes, why would you be interested in the relaunch at all? LaBarre and I must know!

Good question which needs a good answer.

I've read three of the four Voyager books, "Homecoming", The Farther Shore" and "Old Wounds" even if I must admit that I wasn't too happy with them. I did write a review about "Homecoming" when I had read that one and "The Farther Shore" in which I did sum up my opinions and most of what I wrote then still stands, including the fact that "I would continue to keep an eye on the relaunch" which I have done up to now.

As for Kes, that's one of the reasons that I haven't had the same interest for Voyager afyter season 1-3. I've only watched the season 4-6 episodes (up to "Fury") once plus "Endgame" and that was after two years of totally abandoning the TV show and I haven't read any Voyager books between "Pathways" and the first Relaunch book "Homecoming" except for the "Dark Matters" trilogy.

I must admit that I had some hope and expectations that Kes would be brought back in a decent way in the relaunch since Christie Golden actually had a lot of sympathy for the character (I know that because of an exchange of mails I had with her around the publishing of the Dark Matter books).

But in recent years I've actually been happy that they haven't brought the character back since I'm afraid that it would result in further destruction of the character and too much of that "Fury" crap aftermath involved in a possible story.

Anyway, I did have some hopes for the relaunch when it started. I did hope that it would clear up and correct some stupidities from the later years of the series (such as the destruction of Kes, Neelix's absence and C/7). Although being somewhat dissapointed with the stories and the split-up of the crew, I still kept an eye on the relaunch because I did see it as "canon" and as the continuation of the TV series. You should only know how many times I've debated about this on the startrek.com forum where I've stated over and over again that I do regard the books as "canon". It was only some months ago I did state that "better a mediocre Voyager relaunch than no Voyager relaunch at all" when I was debating with some people who really trashed the whole thing.

I've also written a fan-fiction story based on the situation in the relaunch books (I had to do a lot of reading and research for that one which gave me some insight in the DS9 books as well) and I have two unfinished stories "in the can" based on the same premise. That has given me reasons for keeping an eye on the relaunch and buying occasional books as well.

However, the killing off of Janeway has in a way shattered all hopes I may have had for the relaunch and I no longer see any reason to "keep an eye" on the relaunch or consider it as "canon" since I'll never will write a single story where Janeway is killed off and no longer see any reason for defending the books and regarding them as "canon".

If Janeway hadn't been killed off, I would probably have stuck around, bought some books here and there and continued to write comments about regarding the relaunch as "canon" and "better a mediocre Voyager relaunch than no Voyager relaunch at all". The only thing that would have made me totally abandon all Trek is some story which would further ruin and destroy Kes.

But the killing off of Janeway changed all that. I just can't accept it because it's like having the "Fury" scenario opened up again, this time with another beloved Voyager character.

And I do see a Pandora's box opening up here. If the main character of Voyager can be that easily wasted, then who will be next?

I guess that the main reason for many angry posts is that I'm terribly dissapointed. I've expected more of the books, the authors and those in charge of Pocket Books. If you visit my website and read my reviews of the 15 first Voyager books, you will see that I really appreciate them, some of them more than the TV episodes and that I've actually like to read Star Trek books, that's the reason for me "hanging around" here.

And no, Im' not gonna rant about this over and over again. I've said what I want to say in this matter and explained what I don't like with the current direction.

However, hope is the last thing that will fade. I don't rule out the possibility that I will buy and read Star Trek books in the future. Honestly, I hope that somewhere down the road there will be a positive surprise for once.

 

[Steve Roby]

In the same way that a vegetarian will try and make a carnivore stop heating their meat, because he feels it is wrong and you must abide by what he thinks.

This is just a tangent, but: No. My wife and I are vegetarians and we don't really care what other people eat. We do appreciate it when restaurants have a few options that don't include meat, and won't spend money at restaurants that don't, but that's it. Our families and friends are all omnivores, and we haven't bothered trying to convert any of them. You do your thing, we'll do ours.

 

[captcalhoun]

In the same way that a vegetarian will try and make a carnivore stop heating their meat, because he feels it is wrong and you must abide by what he thinks.

This is just a tangent, but: No. My wife and I are vegetarians and we don't really care what other people eat. We do appreciate it when restaurants have a few options that don't include meat, and won't spend money at restaurants that don't, but that's it. Our families and friends are all omnivores, and we haven't bothered trying to convert any of them. You do your thing, we'll do ours.

yeah, but you're a rational person, most vegetarians i know are of the 'filthy murdering heartless bastard meat-eater!!!!' variety

 

[JustKate]

I have a vegan friend who refers to meat as "corpses." No, she isn't kidding. Fortunately, she's an Internet friend so we don't share meals very often.

 

[Trent Roman]

Don't you see that makes your opinion irrelevant to Pocket Books

All our opinions are irrelevant to Pocket Books, his no more or less so than yours or mine. Individual viewpoints won't register in terms of the scale of the operation.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[kimc]

if you're not going to read the bookos, Lynx, why are you even here?

Maybe he would just like a book to read?

 

[JoeZhang]

if you're not going to read the bookos, Lynx, why are you even here?

Maybe he would just like a book to read?

Since he refuses to read anything that is being currently published - what do you suggest?

 

[JD]

And no, Im' not gonna rant about this over and over again. I've said what I want to say in this matter and explained what I don't like with the current direction.

Yeah, but you've been doing exactly that for several weeks now.

 

[Dark Gilligan]

Since he refuses to read anything that is being currently published - what do you suggest?

Wait a minute... Lynx is a he?!? Great googly-moogly.

 

[JD]

Yeah. We found that out a few weeks back.

 

[brcarthey]

^
^^
i thought everyone already knew that considering the number of posts he's made here.