Political realities of TUC

[Jetboogieman]

Now let me start by saying that TUC is my favorite star trek movie, i think it's sheer brilliance, however, there's one thing in the movie that always troubled me.

The president was all to willing to offer up McCoy and Kirk as the sacrificial lambs for the Klingon peace talks to go forward.

And the reason this bothers me is, and im assuming anyway that Captain Kirk, given his service record, the amount of times he saved earth, and although i don't like Generations, the enormous press coverage he got in the enterprise-B, that the political realities for a democratic president to without so much as official protest (minus a single line "out of the question to the Klingon ambassador) hand over the greatest federation hero of his time, would be political suicide.

I for one would be a federation citizen protesting such a decision.

Now you could make the case that perhaps to some people, especially after hearing kirks personal log played during the trial, it may have convinced some federation citizens he may have been guilty but some would have seen him unfortunately even more so as a hero for doing so, I imagine there would have been a decent number of klingophobes on earth

Your thoughts on this matter?

 

[HaventGotALife]

I have a problem with the Klingons. Why not kill Gorkon, in the open, kill Kirk at the same time, and become ruler of the Klingon Empire? Why all this cloak-and-dagger stuff?

To be fair, this is after Redemption I and II. We have Klingons willing to assasinate Gowron and Worf already killed Duras. We have modern-day Klingons and their honor.

 

[sonak]

They simply weren't willing to risk war by demanding the return of Kirk, no matter how much of a hero he is. This is laid out in that scene in the Federation's President's office with the ambassadors and such.

 

[Jetboogieman]

They simply weren't willing to risk war by demanding the return of Kirk, no matter how much of a hero he is. This is laid out in that scene in the Federation's President's office with the ambassadors and such.

Yes but it has already been established that the federation was in a highly adventageous position given the destruction of Praxis, the only ones who stood to lose from war were the Klingons.

A president has to think about re-election, now do you think in reality if a president in the advantageous position, submitted one of it's most valuable citizens to an obvious Show trial based on cirumstancial evidence, he'd likely get elected again?

I doubt it.

In the end its just a movie, but it always bothered me that the president wouldn't have done more to stop Kirk and McCoy being thrown away like that.

 

[HaventGotALife]

They simply weren't willing to risk war by demanding the return of Kirk, no matter how much of a hero he is. This is laid out in that scene in the Federation's President's office with the ambassadors and such.

Yes but it has already been established that the federation was in a highly adventageous position given the destruction of Praxis, the only ones who stood to lose from war were the Klingons.

A president has to think about re-election, now do you think in reality if a president in the advantageous position, submitted one of it's most valuable citizens to an obvious Show trial based on cirumstancial evidence, he'd likely get elected again?

I doubt it.

In the end its just a movie, but it always bothered me that the president wouldn't have done more to stop Kirk and McCoy being thrown away like that.

The question becomes: what is the average citizen's larger concern--avoiding war at all costs (because this is paradise and we've grown past it) or seeing Kirk returned safely to the Federation?

It's an interesting question, but they never gave us the rundown from the average UFP citizen.

 

[USS Triumphant]

"I didn't really have any choice... dumbass!"

 

[Mark 2000]

Kirk has never kept his opinions on Klingons a secret. It's more than likely that Star Fleet believed Kirk actually fired. And if they did it was mentioned several times that he was arrested under Interstellar Law - whatever that may be. Obviously there was a prearranged agreement about what to do if a military official kills a head of state. If a Navy captain shot the Soviet Premier in the head 30 years ago I doubt they'd hand him back to the US. The President himself said he was not "above the law".

And sacrifices have to be made if you're not going to go to war with another super power during a critical juncture. Maybe you don't remember the Cold War. It seems to be easy to attack anyone now a days - Serbia, Iraq, Afghanistan. War with the Soviets would have meant Nukes. Same with the Klingons. The Organians said it best: "murder on a planetary scale". Avoiding that is worth a captain who is probably guilty and some doctor.

 

[HaventGotALife]

Kirk has never kept his opinions on Klingons a secret. It's more than likely that Star Fleet believed Kirk actually fired. And if they did it was mentioned several times that he was arrested under Interstellar Law - whatever that may be. Obviously there was a prearranged agreement about what to do if a military official kills a head of state. If a Navy captain shot the Soviet Premier in the head 30 years ago I doubt they'd hand him back to the US. The President himself said he was not "above the law".

And sacrifices have to be made if you're not going to go to war with another super power during a critical juncture. Maybe you don't remember the Cold War. It seems to be easy to attack anyone now a days - Serbia, Iraq, Afghanistan. War with the Soviets would have meant Nukes. Same with the Klingons. The Organians said it best: "murder on a planetary scale". Avoiding that is worth a captain who is probably guilty and some doctor.

Interesting theory, but a couple of things. First, the President made it clear he didn't believe Kirk did it. Second, the idea of war was explored after the Klingon Ambassador left. "Then quite frankly, Mr. President, we can clean their (clocks)." The Klingons were too weak for war. We are the Federation and don't start wars. That is what is at issue here.

 

[Mark 2000]

I'd disagree on one point: Look at how our very own Secretary of Defense thought we could be in and out of Iraq in one year. Check out Dr. Strangelove to see the kind of gung-ho pig headedness career generals can have. Just because an idiot like West was sure they could win (and recall he's part of the conspiracy) doesn't mean they actually could have. Praxis didn't make the Klingon fleet just disappear.

 

[Xerxes1979]

What was McCoy guilty of? Did he supposedly accelerate the death of the mortally wounded Chancellor?

Where were the witnesses, where was the flight data recorder?

If Star Trek 2009 is to believed Kirk was born genetically a genius but the Klingon show trial was over in 5 minutes!

McCoy did not deserve to be sentenced to Rura Pente.

 

[sonak]

Kirk has never kept his opinions on Klingons a secret. It's more than likely that Star Fleet believed Kirk actually fired. And if they did it was mentioned several times that he was arrested under Interstellar Law - whatever that may be. Obviously there was a prearranged agreement about what to do if a military official kills a head of state. If a Navy captain shot the Soviet Premier in the head 30 years ago I doubt they'd hand him back to the US. The President himself said he was not "above the law".

And sacrifices have to be made if you're not going to go to war with another super power during a critical juncture. Maybe you don't remember the Cold War. It seems to be easy to attack anyone now a days - Serbia, Iraq, Afghanistan. War with the Soviets would have meant Nukes. Same with the Klingons. The Organians said it best: "murder on a planetary scale". Avoiding that is worth a captain who is probably guilty and some doctor.

Interesting theory, but a couple of things. First, the President made it clear he didn't believe Kirk did it. Second, the idea of war was explored after the Klingon Ambassador left. "Then quite frankly, Mr. President, we can clean their (clocks)." The Klingons were too weak for war. We are the Federation and don't start wars. That is what is at issue here.

with the futuristic technology in Star Trek, even if the UFP "won" the war it would still be an incredibly destructive conflict with astronomically high casualties. It would be two of the biggest powers in the Quadrant going to war. The UFP president just didn't see it as being worth it, especially as other possibilities might have presented themselves, diplomatic and otherwise.

 

[Mark 2000]

What was McCoy guilty of? Did he supposedly accelerate the death of the mortally wounded Chancellor?

In the court room Chang accuses McCoy of not saving the chancellor due to malice or incompetence. As far as the courts were concerned McCoy was a co-conspirator. I'm not saying any of this necessarily makes sense. I'm just saying it's explained pretty clearly in the film.

 

[Harvey]

I have a problem with the Klingons. Why not kill Gorkon, in the open, kill Kirk at the same time, and become ruler of the Klingon Empire? Why all this cloak-and-dagger stuff?

The Klingon conspirators didn't just kill Gorkon themselves because they wanted to destroy the peace process and continue the Cold War that had existed between the two powers for the foreseeable future.

If they killed Gorkon themselves, they risked making him a martyr for the cause of peace. By implicating the Federation, Gorkon was out of the way and the peace process was discredited.

 

[Mark 2000]

By implicating the Federation, Gorkon was out of the way and the peace process was discredited.

Plus there's Azetbur and all the people loyal to her like Kerla. There would definitely be infighting if there wasn't an outside aggressor forcing their hand.