Plot hole in Wrath of Khan, or am I thinking wrong?
- Thread starter Leathco
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Until you ask, ``and why would they do that, exactly?'' and sit through the awkward, unconvincing silence that follows.
I do like the notion that the explosion of Ceti Alpha VI was noticed and misattributed to another planet, but the fact was used to bump Ceti Alpha VI up on the list of Genesis candidates.
Until you ask, ``and why would they do that, exactly?'' and sit through the awkward, unconvincing silence that follows.
Well, we know why Section 31 operative Alexander Marcus was interested in Khan in another timeline. Heck, it can't be any more nonsensical than what TWOK already claimed.
So they can weaponize it.
Until you ask, ``and why would they do that, exactly?''
Think about it. What does Khan actually WANT Genesis for? It's useless as a WMD; he only has one of them (the only one that will ever exist since he killed the team that created it) and it's effectiveness has never been demonstrated. IF he uses it on someone, the whole of Starfleet will hunt him down, and he's smart enough to know that's not a battle he can win in puny Reliant. So what does Khan actually WANT with Genesis?
Simple: he wants to make a new home for his people.
But unlike Carol Marcus, Khan doesn't give a shit if the test planet is inhabited or not. He also doesn't want anyone to KNOW what he's up to, so he'll pick a place off the beaten path but still close enough to major shipping lanes that he can recruit passers-by for supplies, recruit followers, build a fleet of his own to eventually go out pillaging, pirating and conquering. Starfleet, of course, is not going to let that happen; by the time Khan's new planet has finished forming, half the fleet will be on Reliant's ass and Khan and his crew will stuffed out of an airlock shortly thereafter. Starfleet collects the Genesis Data (and unlike Khan, are in a position to use that data to reproduce the device) and secretly develops it into the planet-smashing WMD that both David and Kruge feared it could become.
tl;dr The only way the hawks in Starfleet could get away with weaponizing Genesis is if they arranged for someone to steal it. Nobody in Starfleet would go along with that, but a megalomaniac who's always wanted to rule his own planet would make a convenient patsy. And if it just so happens that Khan's use of Genesis nerfed an entire civilization? That's just proof that Genesis is too dangerous to fall into the wrong hands.
So Christopher...given your not-unjustified criticisms of TWOK's implausibilities, I'm curious...what do you think of the film as a film? I mean, do you look past the issues and enjoy it, or are they glaring enough for you that in the end you feel they significantly detract from the overall product?
I think it's an utterly stupid, cornily melodramatic, needlessly gory, implausibly retro piece of nonsense. I find it sluggishly directed and tedious, and I say that as someone who enjoys the leisurely pace of ST:TMP. I think it undermined cinematic Star Trek badly by tossing out the intelligence and naturalism that the franchise had previously aspired to in favor of absurd plotting and over-the-top, exaggerated melodrama. I think it squandered the potential of "Space Seed"s ending and wasted Khan as a character by reducing him from a brilliant aspiring conqueror to a vengeance-crazed lunatic. I think its visuals, music, and style totally lack the elegance and grandeur of TMP, and that the whole thing is operating on a lesser level all around; it's basically a TV movie dressed up with feature-quality opticals. The best thing I can say about it is that at least it isn't The Final Frontier.
Oddly, I rather like The Search for Spock, even though it has many of the same deficits of plausibility and sense and production values. I'm not entirely sure why that is, but it's largely because I really like the dialogue in TSFS; it's really rather lyrical. And maybe it's partly because it wasn't a huge letdown from its predecessor the way TWOK was vis-a-vis TMP.
So they can weaponize it.Actually, that's not a bad theory.
Until you ask, ``and why would they do that, exactly?''
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tl;dr The only way the hawks in Starfleet could get away with weaponizing Genesis is if they arranged for someone to steal it. Nobody in Starfleet would go along with that, but a megalomaniac who's always wanted to rule his own planet would make a convenient patsy. And if it just so happens that Khan's use of Genesis nerfed an entire civilization? That's just proof that Genesis is too dangerous to fall into the wrong hands.
Doesn't parse. If Section 31 wants to weaponize Genesis, they can do so by letting the Project finish its work, copy the database, and then make the weaponization one of their dark-budget projects. If Section 31 wants to tank Genesis so that no one can finish, much less weaponize, it (a refreshing change of pace for evil top-secret organizations), they can slip a bomb into a storage container and classify the remains.
They don't have to trick Reliant into going to the wrong planet, getting captured by Khan, and trusting Khan will follow their predicted script rather than do something novel like, oh, hold Earth for ransom or sell the thing to the Tholians. They can get what they want with less effort.
Thanks for your thoughts!
But getting access to and weaponizing Genesis is the EASY part; it's not even a challenge for them.
The trick is exploiting a fully developed Genesis device in a way that prevents ANYONE ELSE from ever using one. Genesis is otherwise a civilian project under Carol's direct control; it's her patent, her intellectual property. The only way to keep her from using it the way she sees fit is to take Genesis away from her -- which is exactly what she was furious about, and exactly what she right believes Starfleet can't legally do. On the other hand, even if they took Genesis from her, there's nothing to stop her from using her knowledge to build a new one; the only way to do THAT is to kill them all.
Well yes, and they COULD have just gone in there and straight murdered everyone and walked away with Genesis. But that's not really the way Section 31's style: they never actually kill anyone, they just arrange "coincidences" that cause their enemies to BE killed at convenient moments. They're an espionage unit, not a death squad.
And they didn't have to do any of the bullshit they pulled in "Affliction" either. Or for that matter Inter Arma.
But if you wanted to create a situation where Starfleet would appear to be a) totally justified in taking over a civilian terraforming system and classifying every single part of it as a military secret and b) totally blameless for the fact that the civilians who DEVELOPED that system are all dead or missing, Khan would be a convenient patsy.
As for trusting Khan to behave in anything like a predictable manner... wasn't that Admiral Marcus' mistake too?
Out of curiosity can I ask what you think of Into Darkness?
Yeah, I could see that. Wrath of Khan is definitely a "downshift" if you watch it right after TMP. But then, there's something to be said for context: I wasn't even BORN yet when either of those movies came out, so my expectations on seeing them both for the first time were effectively non-existent.
Wrath of Khan has its problems -- no shortage of them, to be sure -- but on the whole I still find it to be entertaining and engaging.
Just making this up as I go here, but my thinking was that Marcus Prime's motive would be the same as in STID: To draw on the brilliance of Khan and his followers as warriors and conquerors, to co-opt them for Section 31's benefit. Marcus probably wouldn't have known about the Ceti eels, wouldn't have predicted that Khan would be able to take control of Reliant. He would've simply wanted to get them off of Ceti Alpha V, and maybe bring them to Regula I for study because it was a convenient nearby scientific research facility and one that Marcus felt he could visit without seeming suspicious because his daughter ran it. He probably would've already had designs on Genesis, perhaps as a separate project, or perhaps he felt that he could use Genesis as an incentive to control Khan by offering him a new homeworld, say. Or something like that.
Not bad, but with some significant flaws. I think it's the best Khan story we've had onscreen, using the potential of the character far better than TWOK or even "Space Seed" did. And I love the way it recreated the Gene Coon dynamic ("Arena," "The Devil in the Dark") of Kirk initially rejecting Spock's peaceful urgings in favor of a more bellicose approach, but ultimately stopping himself and choosing not to destroy. But then its third act veered into gratuitous TWOK homages and Man of Steel-style urban devastation, undermining what was otherwise a pretty effective story.
the movie was not about genesis. it was revenge and self destruction.
the planet was an accident. the destruction of the planet that star fleet never discovered in 18 years. Somehow Kirk never let Starfleet Command know about the big eugenics nightmare he left behind.
The greatest enemy of TOS being forgotten by the bridge crew.
Khan capturing the ship used for Genisis was pure OOPS. he got it, he realized it would make kirk follow him. He wanted to kill kirk because the change in planets environment killed the historian from TOS.
Khan used the Device in the nebula as a last resort weapon. He saw both ships had no ability to escape at impulse speed so as he died he had the hope hed finally get vengeance on kirk.
David had no interest in stopping Genesis. The device Khan has was the final production model, the tiny one used to make the planetoid interior jungle had been super small sample. The Khan device had the full capacity. He knew after the research team was killed he would not be able to be allowed to actually test it. SO "it cant be stopped" meant " I need it to be used now or ill never get to test it"
Also I remember one version of WOK where it was said the genesis wave once started could not be stopped, as a result of either a safety interlock so no one could deactivate and steal it during a test, and just a simple "its so complicated that we don't know how"
And more simply, sensors did not work, transporters cant be used without sensors. IF your ship cant target an enemy ship using computer based sensors, then the computer based sensors cant be used to use a transporter. No one wants to end up in a wall when they rematerialize.
the planet was an accident. the destruction of the planet that star fleet never discovered in 18 years. Somehow Kirk never let Starfleet Command know about the big eugenics nightmare he left behind.
The greatest enemy of TOS being forgotten by the bridge crew.
Khan capturing the ship used for Genisis was pure OOPS. he got it, he realized it would make kirk follow him. He wanted to kill kirk because the change in planets environment killed the historian from TOS.
Khan used the Device in the nebula as a last resort weapon. He saw both ships had no ability to escape at impulse speed so as he died he had the hope hed finally get vengeance on kirk.
David had no interest in stopping Genesis. The device Khan has was the final production model, the tiny one used to make the planetoid interior jungle had been super small sample. The Khan device had the full capacity. He knew after the research team was killed he would not be able to be allowed to actually test it. SO "it cant be stopped" meant " I need it to be used now or ill never get to test it"
Also I remember one version of WOK where it was said the genesis wave once started could not be stopped, as a result of either a safety interlock so no one could deactivate and steal it during a test, and just a simple "its so complicated that we don't know how"
And more simply, sensors did not work, transporters cant be used without sensors. IF your ship cant target an enemy ship using computer based sensors, then the computer based sensors cant be used to use a transporter. No one wants to end up in a wall when they rematerialize.
Well, apart from himself dying before he can see whether it worked or not.
They could see where the Reliant was. With a bit of computer assistance, that's all the sensors they would ever need for defining the coordinates. Heck, they did that exact thing in "The Tholian Web", eyeballing the location of the Defiant bridge and getting it exactly right. And the Defiant was doing the amoeba impression, rather than sitting nicely put...
Timo Saloniemi
When Kirk gets to see the planetoid jungle, I am certain that he is told that another test of the genesis device was in heavy doubt due to heavy resistance from star fleet command.
As a result, survival of the genesis device was in doubt, so preventing a test was really un smart to do.
As to the sensors, the nebula left the enterprise to resort to blindly firing volleys of torpedoes and phasers in the general "estimated" direction of Khans ship. Even the VISUAL SENSORS that put a pretty external picture on the main viewer were barely functional.
I recall a series of early trek novels that stated the transporter created a miniature stasis field around a person to keep them from moving during transport. Something about the transporter not being able to garuntee the person would still be a person if they moved during the dematerialization process..
As a result, survival of the genesis device was in doubt, so preventing a test was really un smart to do.
As to the sensors, the nebula left the enterprise to resort to blindly firing volleys of torpedoes and phasers in the general "estimated" direction of Khans ship. Even the VISUAL SENSORS that put a pretty external picture on the main viewer were barely functional.
I recall a series of early trek novels that stated the transporter created a miniature stasis field around a person to keep them from moving during transport. Something about the transporter not being able to garuntee the person would still be a person if they moved during the dematerialization process..
Not in the movie. Starfleet support appeared unwavering: why else would they have assigned the Reliant to perform a task directly related to the next stage of testing?
Well, the movie cameras themselves showed perfectly clear pictures of Khan's ship, and of Kirk's, even if in odd lighting conditions. Surely Kirk's ship had cameras of that sort available, too (even if the feed going to his viewscreen featured noise from whatever sources)!
It's nice speculation, but fundamentally counterproductive: the very means by which the transporter effect is achieved in practice (have the actor stop moving on set A, cut, walk to set B, and start moving there) means that the transportee always moves during transport. It would be impossible for the actor to hold completely identical poses on sets A and B both.
Which is consistent with what happens in-universe. After all, people beam from the perfectly level platforms of the starship to the perfectly uneven surfaces of planets, meaning that at least their feet absolutely have to move a bit.
Timo Saloniemi
In the TNG episode where Worfs future girlfriend arrives in the modified torpedo casing.. they need to hit the casing with the tractor beam and match speed and then use the transporter. It was due to I think the transporter couldn't compensate for motion.
st the magazine had a nice article on the pod and the episode.
Voyager was the first series where the ship could beam aboard moving shuttles.
st the magazine had a nice article on the pod and the episode.
Voyager was the first series where the ship could beam aboard moving shuttles.
Well, the transporter has always compensated for low sublight motion just fine. Beaming people at warp was not tried in TOS, but not declared impossible, either. But TNG "The Emissary" and "Best of Both Worlds" both make references to matching warp velocities before attempting a warp-to-warp transport, so there's that. VOY appears to break new ground with a stationary-to-warp (two billion km/s!) transport in "Maneuvers", but it might well be that beaming from a warp 2.1 ship to a warp 2.4 ship is a more extreme feat, and something our TNG (and perhaps TOS and ENT) heroes could do already.
TWoK involved no beaming-in-motion feats more difficult than defeating the speed and angular momentum difference between an orbiting starship and the surface (or subsurface) of a planet. Curiously, no other TOS movie did, either. Although one wonders whether Kirk would have slowed down at Khitomer if not for Chang's cloakship, or just beamed down at full impulse!
Picard wanted a moving shuttle beamed aboard in "Deja Q", and it was a cause of amazement (and a Q trick) that this didn't work. Also, high relative velocities were supposedly involved in "The Schitzoid Man" with the touch-and-go beaming. So movement isn't a problem for transporters as such - and this particular movie probably doesn't involve really high relative speeds, what with the two ships being crippled or otherwise hobbled most of the time.
Timo Saloniemi
I thought I read in the novelization that he did actually say that it wasn't possible to beam over instead of just saying "you can't." Maybe something with the radiation levels the torpedo was putting out then?
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