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Plot hole in Wrath of Khan, or am I thinking wrong?

Right. Dunno if they'd have stopped with "eh, it's kinda far from the sun, and it's brown, that's probably close enough, right?" :lol:

Plus, if you know you're going to Planet 6, seems like something should throw you off if you can only find 5 planets. And the one you're going to doesn't quite have the right orbit for 5 or 6. Should be damned odd to not see 5 more planets between yourself and the sun if you're trying to go to the 6th planet.

If I tell you to go down the hall and take the 6th door on your left, you wouldn't go in the 5th one, would you? Even if it was really far from the 4th door? Seems like you'd keep looking, and then try and figure out what's going on when you only see 5, and the 5th one looks kinda wonky and off.
 
You won't match the orbital parameters, no, but it is possible that the fifth planet can get pushed into an elliptical orbit that at some point in its year crosses the original orbit of the sixth planet. (I've done the math.) So if it's at that exact point in its new orbit when they decided to go there and were flying with blinders on, it's possible. Not completely realistic, but possible.
 
You won't match the orbital parameters, no, but it is possible that the fifth planet can get pushed into an elliptical orbit that at some point in its year crosses the original orbit of the sixth planet. (I've done the math.) So if it's at that exact point in its new orbit when they decided to go there and were flying with blinders on, it's possible. Not completely realistic, but possible.

Again: planets move. Fast. It takes the Earth only seven minutes to traverse its own diameter. So crossing the orbit at a single point wouldn't do any good. The Reliant would need to match trajectories with the planet, to put itself on the exact same orbital path around the star.

Think of a scene in, say, Mad Max: Fury Road where someone in a speeding car needs to catch up with the speeding War Rig, come up alongside it, and match its speed and course in order to jump onto it. That car can't just come at the War Rig at an angle, on a path that intersects with its path at a single point; if it tries that, it'd either crash into the Rig or just zoom past it so fast that there'd be no chance of a rendezvous. The only way it works is if you know its exact speed and direction and are able to match it perfectly on a sustained basis.

This is what so much sci-fi gets wrong about navigation in space. Planets are not cities. They don't stand still and wait for you to come to them. They are juggernauts racing through space at enormous speed, and they are not at all easy to catch up with. It would be impossible for the Reliant to go into orbit of a planet without knowing the exact, correct parameters of its orbit around its star. So there's simply no way they could've gotten it wrong.

(Unless, say, we concocted some conspiracy theory where some Section 31 operative -- the Prime version of Alexander Marcus, maybe? -- arranged for the Reliant to have false orbital data in its memory banks in order to arrange for Khan to get a ride off the planet. But that would create many complications of its own.)
 
^How's that help the counting game? They're looking for Ceti Alpha VI and stopped at the 5th planet from the sun. Seems like they should have either accidently landed on #7 and noticed things were obviously too far out to work, or found themselves back in interstellar space without running into a 6th planet.

No matter what the orbital parameters were, even if they got stupid lucky and got there at the exact 3 seconds when 5 looked JUST like 6 would have, they should still notice that there's only 4 planets closer to the sun than the one they are on.
 
^How's that help the counting game? They're looking for Ceti Alpha VI and stopped at the 5th planet from the sun. Seems like they should have either accidently landed on #7 and noticed things were obviously too far out to work, or found themselves back in interstellar space without running into a 6th planet.

For one thing, planets are not lined up in a row like stepping stones. Try to keep in mind that they are in constant motion, like cars racing around a track. And they're all racing at different speeds, going slower the farther out from the star they are, so they're at different points in their orbits at any given time. Moving outward from a certain planet would only cross the orbital path of the next planet, not actually reach the next planet itself. For instance, at this exact moment, only Venus is roughly in line between Earth and the Sun. Mercury, Mars, and Jupiter are all on the far side of the Sun, Saturn is maybe about 60 or 70 degrees behind Earth, Uranus about 60 degrees ahead, etc. That's why we have to send space probes on such years-long, looping paths to get to their target planets instead of just shooting them in a straight line.

For another thing, they could actually see the planets. We can see Mars and Jupiter and Saturn with our naked eyes from the surface of the Earth. You're talking as though the Reliant were flailing around in a dark cave hoping to bump into things. But starships have powerful sensors and telescopes. They could easily spot every planet in the system well before they actually entered it. And as I said, Starfleet should've already detected the explosion of Ceti Alpha V fifteen years before, because they have faster-than-light sensor capability. They should've known about it long before the Reliant was ever assigned.

After all, the energy required to disintegrate an Earth-sized planet is comparable to the Sun's entire output for a week. Given that Alpha Ceti is about 1400 times brighter than Sol, if that explosion took only, say, one minute, then the event would outshine the star by about a factor of eight. It would be impossible to miss. As I said, even if there were no FTL sensors, then the Reliant would've intersected that light once they crossed with 15 light-years of the system. They would've seen the energy output from the system suddenly get eight to ten times brighter for a minute, and they absolutely would've wanted to know why. But since they did have FTL sensors, then the Federation should've known about the eruption for the past 15 years -- and would've sent a ship to investigate 15 years earlier. Khan's people should've gotten off the planet during the second season of TOS!


No matter what the orbital parameters were, even if they got stupid lucky and got there at the exact 3 seconds when 5 looked JUST like 6 would have, they should still notice that there's only 4 planets closer to the sun than the one they are on.

Obviously they spent more than three seconds approaching the planet. The scene in the movie took a couple of minutes at least. Again, think of it as two speeding vehicles rendezvousing so that a stunt performer can climb from one to the other. It isn't just the instant of intersection that matters, it's the period after intersection when they're staying on the same course.
 
I wasn't arguing with you, not sure how you got that from quoting me. I agree, it was a stupid error and one they couldn't have possibly made given their technology and that they managed to arrive at ANY planet in the first place...
 
Someone made mention of the lack of information from Kirk's time being part of the reason Reliant wouldn't notice.


Well, even in Kirk's time they were able to immediately tell when entire solar systems were destroyed. (See : Doomsday Machine) 15 years later on a ship that is set out to perform this one particular task, I would hope they made sure they got the right place. This isn't a family road trip down an unmarked highway, this is a Federation Starship on a top secret project of the utmost importance. They damn well better be making sure they get the right planet and not just shrug their shoulders. "Eh, close enough, right?" :lol:
 
There was a time in the 1980s, that if an alien starship entered the Sol system, Pluto by distance would be the eighth planet from the sun and Neptune the ninth planet. If they came back in 15 years, and Neptune had exploded 14 years ago, Pluto would regardless be in an orbital position of the ninth planet from the sun.

The fifth and sixth planets of the Alpha Ceti system might be in such orbits that they trade distances from their sun every several years. The explosion of one of those planets might have made the difference even harder to tell, and the Federation assumed that Ceti Alpha V exploded six months after Khan was left there.
 
There was a time in the 1980s, that if an alien starship entered the Sol system, Pluto by distance would be the eighth planet from the sun and Neptune the ninth planet. If they came back in 15 years, and Neptune had exploded 14 years ago, Pluto would regardless be in an orbital position of the ninth planet from the sun.

That doesn't matter one bit, though, because counting is not the only way you identify planets. It would still have a totally different orbit, mass, radius, and everything else, so nobody could possibly mistake one for the other.


The fifth and sixth planets of the Alpha Ceti system might be in such orbits that they trade distances from their sun every several years.
As I've explained repeatedly, distance is not the only orbital parameter that matters, because planets are not stationary objects lined up in a straight row like so many works of fiction annoying condition the public to assume they are. They are moving bodies whose courses are defined by six distinct elements. It wouldn't matter if they traded distances occasionally; any astronomer observing their motion for any length of time could tell that their other orbital elements were different.

The only way they could possibly have interchangeable orbital elements is if they were co-orbital twin planets, like Pluto and Charon. But that would just make it easier to notice that half of the pair was missing. Not to mention that an explosion sufficient to destroy one planet would probably have destroyed both of them. Plus it would contradict Khan's line about V's orbit being shifted.
 
I'm ready for an Opposite Day where Christopher et al. have to come up with reasons why Reliant's mistake is plausible. :p
 
Well, the planets were NUMBERED
What does that mean? Where on Earth is the big number 3, say? And who scrubs that out and replaces it with 2 if Mercury gets eaten by a Space Maggot?

When did they tell us VI was a 'desert hell hole'? From what we saw, they just assumed there was no life. For all we know, it was an ocean planet, a volcanic pit, or an arctic waste.
Fair point. It's just that what the sidekicks see at arrival on "Ceti Alpha VI" does not surprise them in the slightest! The raging sandstorm was equated with Garden of Even by Chekov, but admittedly that may simply mean that it was the only place with life - not that it was the least hostile spot in other, more general terms. However, nothing about the fact that there was a raging sandstorm was unexpected for Chekov and Terrell.

FWIW, the graphics for the planet show the classic monocolor globe that would support an assumption of rather uniform surface conditions.

Even today, we can detect planetary systems around stars thousands of light-years away. And we know that Starfleet has faster-than-light sensors. An event as massive as the destruction of an entire planet would've been detected by Federation scientists almost as soon as it happened.
But we know that to be false in the Star Trek universe. Planets have blown up before, and neither the sensors of starships nor the sensors of faraway UFP observatories have been able to spot this.

Supposedly, a FTL telescope is an instrument you have to carefully aim at a target of interest. And the short definition of Ceti Alpha used to be "of no interest"...

then the Reliant's sensors would undoubtedly have detected the explosion as soon as they passed within 15 light-years of the system.
This was untrue of the "Doomsday Machine" adventure, so it is only consistent that it remain untrue here as well.

Well, even in Kirk's time they were able to immediately tell when entire solar systems were destroyed. (See : Doomsday Machine)

Actually, quite the opposite - what the episode shows is that a starship has to sail deep into what used to be a star system full of planets, and then bump into some rubble, before Spock is even bothered to do a scan and find out that the planets are gone! And after that has been discovered, it still is necessary for our heroes to sail into each and every one of the systems they study to verify whether the planets are still there or not. This remains true of the system where they finally find the Constellation and the DDM, too.

Not to mention that in order to reach a planet in the first place, you need to know exactly where it is and what its orbital parameters are, because -- despite the tendency of a lot of mass-media sci-fi to forget this -- planets are constantly moving.
And? Just wander into a star system, take a quick look, spot the desert world, establish the state of motion of that one, and be done with it. No need to determine whether it is the fifth, sixth or sole planet in the system.

Besides, most of that speed-matching stuff is anachronistic. If your sorry little rocket has a total delta-vee of a hundred kilometers per second, then perhaps you have to worry about the trajectory you take to reach Mars from Earth. But a starship can just fly a beeline towards a planet, slam the brakes when 300 km from the surface, and remain hovering there. Or, if the helmsman is one for idle aesthetics, do some fine tuning so that the ship assumes a freefall orbit (but this apparently happens seldom in Trek, because starships losing motive power tend to fall out of the sky).

Some of the ideas of the public may be false because of a poor understanding of astrophysics or -mechanics. But many of the ideas on this forum are false because of a poor understanding of how Star Trek has made astrophysics and -mechanics largely irrelevant and a hindrance to proper Starfleet operations. It's like trying to apply the wisdom of sailing a ship-rigged vessel to the conduct of the Battle of Leyte Gulf!

Timo Saloniemi
 
I'm ready for an Opposite Day where Christopher et al. have to come up with reasons why Reliant's mistake is plausible. :p

Both Vonda McIntyre in her TWOK novelization and Greg Cox in his novel To Reign in Hell: The Exile of Khan Noonien Singh have made heroic efforts to justify it, but there was only so much even they could manage to do.
 
Only if you bother to look, which wasn't necessary to do their assigned task. They were not there to survey the system, just check out if Ceti Alpha VI really had no life on it so it could get blownup and rebuilt into a proper M-class planet.

That makes no sense, because it's not exactly something you'd have to go out of your way to spot. Even today, we can detect planetary systems around stars thousands of light-years away. And we know that Starfleet has faster-than-light sensors. An event as massive as the destruction of an entire planet would've been detected by Federation scientists almost as soon as it happened. Even if they hadn't spotted it, even if they were limited to speed-of-light sensors, then the Reliant's sensors would undoubtedly have detected the explosion as soon as they passed within 15 light-years of the system.
That's the "Atomic Rocket" theory of sensor detection: if your most sensitive instruments are capable of detecting something at a distance, then your instruments WILL see it at that distance.

The picture just isn't as simple as people like to think, and detection systems screw up all the time. The main reason for this is that as far as sensor instruments are concerned, the sky is FAR from empty: You might look at a solar system and see "Lots of empty space and eight planets in there" but your sensors look at the same area and see "Four hundred and seventy nine discrete heat sources, nine hundred and twelve UV sources, two thousand one hundred objects magnitude +10 or brighter." Sorting out terrestrial planets above a certain size from that huge data set takes TIME. The time required to sort that out is exactly why survey missions exist, and is exactly what Reliant was NOT there to do.

A solar system that can contain hundreds of comets, thousands of asteroids and dozens upon dozens of dwarf planets, and this for a system that hasn't even been charted in detail, whose planetary orbits haven't been observed for any length of time, and for which only basic data exists for any of the planets that ARE known...

Not to mention that in order to reach a planet in the first place, you need to know exactly where it is and what its orbital parameters are, because -- despite the tendency of a lot of mass-media sci-fi to forget this -- planets are constantly moving.
You don't need to know that ahead of time, though, which they probably didn't. Once you enter the system, you scan the region around you and figure out where everything is, find one that matches the description of the planet you're looking for, and fire up the warp drive and GO there. The planets aren't actually moving fast enough for you to have to plot a Hohman transfer with a fixed delta-v budget, and even if they WERE, that's exactly why "midcourse corrections" exist.

There is simply no realistic way they could mistake one planet for the other, even if, by some incredible coincidence, they had the exact same mass.
Sure there is, especially if they don't KNOW the mass of those planets, and also do not actually know beyond vague generalities what those planets even look like. Which, in the case of Ceti-Alpha VI, they did not.

Ask yourself if you can tell the difference between Vesta and Pallas if you've never actually seen either of them and don't know what their orbits look like. Now ask yourself if, having found what you think is Vesta, you are in a position to notice that periapsis -- which is still six months away -- has shifted half an AU closer to the sun.

No matter what the orbital parameters were, even if they got stupid lucky and got there at the exact 3 seconds when 5 looked JUST like 6 would have...
It wouldn't be 3 seconds, actually. If V was "beneath" VI in their orbits when it exploded, its apopsis would have raised and its periapsis would have lowered by the same degree. Assuming those planets were pretty close in their orbits, separated by only half an AU (they'd pretty much have to be for one's destruction to effect the other) then a shift of a little more than half an AU in either direction would mean V would swing out to if not past the former orbit of VI on one half of its revolution, then way the hell closer to the sun on the other half. It could be as much as 3 or 4 months that V's position is out near the former orbit of VI.

If Reliant identifies it as "Planet VI" just by virtue of its distance from the sun, it would take them a couple of days to notice that the planet's orbit is a lot more elliptical than they expected and that it won't retain this distance for long. For the moment, they're' operating on the assumption that "Ceti-Alpha VI" has been found in a stable orbit around its sun, an assumption that, just this once, is far from the case.

they should still notice that there's only 4 planets closer to the sun than the one they are on.
That, again, would take them a while to notice, assuming they bothered to look.


It wouldn't matter if they traded distances occasionally; any astronomer observing their motion for any length of time could tell that their other orbital elements were different.
Exactly. All of the things we're assuming they "should" have noticed would only have become apparent WITH TIME.

Reliant didn't spend that kind of time. They warped into the system, found a planet at the right distance and beamed down to check it out, probably all in the space of two or three hours. Somewhere on Terrel's desk is a preliminary report from the head of his Astronomy department that at least one planet in the system isn't where it's expected to be and he wants a couple of days to turn the ship's telescopes on them and computer their new orbits and, if possible, figure out what caused the anomaly.

By the time Terrel gets that report, there's a Ceti Eel in his brain.
 
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I'd actually be curious to see how a Board of Inquiry into this whole situation would have turned out.
 
I'm just going to keep repeating this, because it's true.

Reliant is on a mission that, if successful, will reshape the entire galaxy in it's wake.

I surely hope Starfleet would not put the equivalent of the "Eh, close enough" team in charge.

Then again, their sensors were so shoddy, they apparently couldn't tell the difference between a "particle of pre-animate matter" and PIECES OF SPACE SHIP AND DOZENS OF PEOPLE. :lol:
 
^^^ Not to mention the billions of indigenous Ceti Eels crawling all over the place.

They also mentioned that the planet had "Limited atmosphere, dominated by craylon gas, sand and high velocity winds. Incapable of supporting life forms". No mention of any oxygen/nitrogen environment that would also need to be present for Khan & his people to survive on the planet. Supermen or not, I highly doubt they could have so quickly adapted to a non-oxygen/nitrogen atmosphere. Even on the remotest off-chance they had adapted, Chekov and Terrell would have been dead two seconds after their e-suit helmets were removed. The cargo containers would not have been able to hold in enough original atmosphere long enough, especially with all the creaky doors and holes in the walls. Reliant's idiot science officer should be sent back to the academy if he survived being stranded back on Ceti Alpha V and its "limited atmosphere incapable of supporting life forms". That's one of the biggest plot holes in the film, if you ask me...
 
^You're just convincing me that my "Section 31 spoofed the Reliant's computer banks to make them think V was VI" may be the only explanation that works.
 
It is possible that Starfleet knew a planet exploded in the Ceti Alpha system and they sent Reliant to see if "VI" was completely lifeless for Genesis testing. A dead world that had been devastated by a catastrophe would be an ideal choice to test a new life miracle device.

From what I understand of present day exoplanet observations, is that we can only determine that a system has planets based on the gravitational wobble and brightness changes caused to the star by the planets passing between it and us, and some other methods involving light and gravity. Not yet direct observation of the planet. Orbits and the like take years to decades to work out, and that's many many years after the fact due to the speed of light.

Federation sciences might have better abilities, but you have to actually be looking to get data. One thing about "Enterprise" was that we do get to see what Ceti Alpha V was like a hundred years before Ceti Alpha VI exploded.
 
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