Plot hole city: Part II!

[Set Harth]

Why are gloating? Check your facts first before gloating.
You're deducing things you can't deduce logically. The movie doesn't say "Klingon-Federation border"....EVER....

This only provides further evidence that you have no idea what is going on in this film. "Could this be Klingon?" "Negative... we're 75,000 kilometers..."

Logic dictates that it's not impossible for the star in question to Hobus just because it was 70,000 kilometers from Klingon Space. Since they didn't say it was Federation or Romulan space or Neutral Territory.

So why exactly would a Federation starship be patrolling behind Romulan borders at the beginning of the film? Why is this incursion into Romulan territory conspicuously never mentioned? You seem to misunderstand the fact that when Kirk says "the Kelvin attack took place at the edge of Klingon space", it is implicit that he's talking about the border with the Federation.

And since said star could threaten the entire Galaxy proximity of local area isn't a big issue.

It's clear that you think "threatens the entire galaxy" means the Hobus star can be wherever you want, but it's not really that simple. It is significant that Romulus was destroyed before any Federation or Klingon planet worthy of note, and that Spock's priority was to save Romulus.

There is only one Neutral Zone in the film.

Wrong. That is only your assumption, which you cannot prove but insist on projecting upon the film. In Star Trek there are at least two Neutral Zones. The one involved in the Kobayashi Maru scenario is the KNZ, just as seen in TWOK. Spock's emergence point is in the RNZ, the one with a relative degree of spatial proximity to Vulcan. You're still not identifying plot holes in the film. You're merely rewriting the film into an apparently plot-hole-ridden version and then criticizing the resulting rewrite as though confusing it with the actual film.

On the one hand...coordinates implies a different location (not necessarily a different region) but black holes don't transport in space but rather in time.

Since we've never seen red matter black holes before, there is no previously existing precedent for how they work. Thus, they work the way the film requires them to, which involves transportation in space as well as time.

So how do we know that ship is at Vulcan?

What we know is the logic behind Kirk's guess that it was.

How does two Romulan attacks bring us to the same ship that attack 25 years ago?

How does what happened in the film have any similarity to a generic "Romulan attack"? The two factors of the massive Romulan ship and the lightning storm were only seen that one time in 2233 and never seen again until 2258 ( when both factors were observed in relatively close temporal proximity ).

Which didn't make it into the movie for us to consider as part of the plot of said movie so "twiddling Thumbs" still stands...

Unfortunately, "if we didn't see it, it didn't happen" is still wrong and in no way logical. The Rura Penthe plot line is still consistent with the film, and is even implied by Uhura's dialogue to some extent. Otherwise, why attack a prison planet? Just for the hell of it? Once more, you can't prove that it didn't happen. If you're going to claim that the plot has unanswered questions you can't just ignore the answers that have been presented.

I didn't say it was the Neutral Zone.

Actually, you did:

You're saying the Federation/Klingon border CAN'T be the Same as the Neutral Zone where 47 klingon ships were destroyed?

But that was in the closed thread.

Just because you looked up Delta Vega on Memory Alpha and liked their explanation doesn't mean you've found anything logical.

I didn't look up anything. I used the fact that place names are not unique in the real world, a fact which your so-called "logic" can't seem to handle.

Yes, you did.

Have fun putting words in my mouth. As I already explained, I have no idea what the overall percentages are on this issue, so I have no idea who is in the majority. The point is that the things you claim not to have understood were understood by at least one other person.

Don't require us all to be Trek Fanatics in order for you to tell a proper story.

I don't think access to the online script of the film would qualify as being a "Trek fanatic", and you don't need the script anyway. The film alone made it sufficiently clear that they were near the Klingon-Federation border. I'd point out that I thought the film told a "proper story" by itself without any outside help, but that would be the dreaded "appeal to majority" again ( the majority of one against one ).

My determinations are based on the contradictions within the film and are not false.

Your so-called "determinations" are based on rewriting the film into an unrecognizable condition, and thus they have no merit because they have nothing to do with the actual film. Case in point: unable to decided exactly what he wanted an how he wanted to go about getting it done. Nothing like that was ever shown in the film; you made it up. The same is true of: the character's scattered-brained actions through out the film...to which there was no rhythm or reason to despite his statements otherwise. These are false statements.

If there are two people named Michael you give a last name...other wise there is only one Michael.

I rest my case.

 

[William Wallace]

Maybe the algorithms used to regulate the compensation weren't engineered with consideration for the possibility that Vulcan's gravitational field was being dynamically affected by red matter.

But that still doesn't adequately explain why the transporter would be able to cancel out some of the subject's momentum, but not all of it? Since it's re-creating and re-assembling molecules, why can't it just set the momentum of every molecule to "0"? And if it's not capable of changing the momentum of a moving object, then Kirk and Sulu should have died from the fall.

While we're at it, since when is adhering to common sense in science fiction the highest value? Many people don't understand real science, and can't even ballpark accurate scientific predictions with respect to accepted theory. Time dilation and quantum effects are examples of predictions that probably defy the "common sense" of many. Therefore, a universe of science fiction that strictly adheres to "common sense" is actually not the most plausible fictional universe.

Time dilation and quantum effects have nothing to do with common sense. Since you can't use common sense to explain them, then there's no way for them to "defy" something that doesn't explain them anyway. Falling from the sky and hitting the ground, on the other hand, is fairly easy to understand with common sense, so when the characters don't die from that, that makes it confusing and implausible.

So, let me guess, when you watch an episode of T.J. Hooker and Hooker leaves the station and then we cut to him in another location do you shake your head and wonder how the hell he suddenly appeared there or do you imagine that he must have driven/walked to that location?

If I had to have every last detail in a film or television show spelled out for me I expect the entirety of my viewing experience would consist of documentaries and programmes made for very small children.

It takes very little imagination to make an assumption like that, because it's obvious. But what if he leaves the station at 10am, and doesn't get there until nightfall? Doesn't that make you wonder what he's been doing all day, and/or why he didn't go straight there immediately?

 

[Broccoli]

I liked the part of the movie when the guy did the thing.

 

[Set Harth]

Because if Nero and Spock emerged anywhere near Hobus, it makes Nero a total ass-clown for not saving his people before going on his quest for revenge.

In other words, we are now dividing sapients into two groups:

1. Those who, when facing a task that must be completed sometime in the next 130 years, feel that it really must be done immediately ( we call these the "highly motivated" types ).
2. Ass-clowns.

Also, destroying the currently stable Hobus star may necessitate some amount of evacuation of Romulan citizens, which takes time.

You're also overlooking the fact that Nero has a ship that can travel around the galaxy at warp speed. Thus, the location of the emergence point is ultimately irrelevant to the assumption that Nero is an "ass-clown" if he is not depicted as immediately "saving Romulus". If Nero's first priority upon obtaining the red matter had been to "save Romulus", he could have just gone right there, regardless of where he was starting from. Whoosh!

Why?

Because writer intent supersedes ex post facto revisionism designed to create imaginary plot holes, and because the general Hobus location was already strongly implied by the sequence of events depicted in the film.

 

[DrBashir]

I think you mean "in Star Trek 2009 there are at least two places called Delta Vega".

This is a really good point.

In my state, which everyone can see is Kentucky, there is a city called "London". There's another up in Ontario. Not to mention, I understand there's a pretty big city called "London" over in England, that's relatively close to "Paris, France, Europe", as that city is sometimes jokingly called. (Actually, I've been to all of these cities.)

It's entirely reasonable that the full official name of both Delta Vegas is much longer. (I've never been to either of these, though.)

Vulcan in '09 could even be a colony of the planet we saw in TOS, TNG, etc. Vulcan could be a bastardization of the name Vulcans call all planets they occupy but the slight variation in pronunciation is much too subtle for human ears.

 

[DrBashir]

Because writer intent supersedes ex post facto revisionism designed to create imaginary plot holes, and because the general Hobus location was already strongly implied by the sequence of events depicted in the film.

But writer intent in the case of Delta Vega would mean that is is supposed to be the same planet based on comments made in a chat on TrekMovie.com. I prefer to go by what is actually on the screen rather than what the writes may casually drop in conversation.

http://trekmovie.com/2009/04/30/interview-roberto-orci-alex-kurtzman/

For the Trek fans, this film includes many little references. For example you have Kirk dropped off on the planet Delta Vega, which was seen in second Star Trek pilot. It is a cool reference, but didn’t you also fudge canon by ignoring that Delta Vega was way out next to the galactic barrier.


Orci: True. Yeah we did. We moved the planet to suit our purposes. The familiarity of the name seemed more important as an Easter egg, than a new name with no importance.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Fuck writer intent.

 

[Set Harth]

But writer intent in the case of Delta Vega would mean that is is supposed to be the same planet based on comments made in a chat on TrekMovie.com.

Only if you assume "moved the planet" means that the planet literally moved through space from the edge of the galaxy to the vicinity of Vulcan. On the other hand, if "moved the planet" means that a planet named Delta Vega was placed in a location nowhere near the established location of the original Delta Vega, it's a different story. Given that the surface conditions of the two planets are different and they look totally different from space, I'd say we're dealing with the latter option, since they're clearly not the same planet.

 

[DrBashir]

That's stretching the meaning of "moved". Why not just say "we re-used the name"?

Go with what's on the screen rather than what the writer came up with later.

We've had multiple Rigels but with a Roman Numeral suffex. Why not call it Delta Vega VII and be done with it?

 

[DrBashir]

Because if Nero and Spock emerged anywhere near Hobus, it makes Nero a total ass-clown for not saving his people before going on his quest for revenge.

Also, destroying the currently stable Hobus star may necessitate some amount of evacuation of Romulan citizens, which takes time.

You're also overlooking the fact that Nero has a ship that can travel around the galaxy at warp speed. Thus, the location of the emergence point is ultimately irrelevant to the assumption that Nero is an "ass-clown" if he is not depicted as immediately "saving Romulus". If Nero's first priority upon obtaining the red matter had been to "save Romulus", he could have just gone right there, regardless of where he was starting from. Whoosh!

Why?

Because writer intent supersedes ex post facto revisionism designed to create imaginary plot holes, and because the general Hobus location was already strongly implied by the sequence of events depicted in the film.

I'd love to see a scene where Nero tries to destroy the Hobus star in the new reality and ends up setting off the very supernova he wanted to stop. Boy, would he really be pissed after that!

 

[Set Harth]

But why would that happen? Where did the supernova-starting technology come from?

 

[DrBashir]

It's a trans-dimentional predestination paradox.

 

[Broccoli]

But why would that happen? Where did the supernova-starting technology come from?

Um....the Force?

 

[Saquist]

By you.
You are wrong.

Which is according you (and only you), a fan, biased, and otherly without an argument of any kind. Unless you can prove it, I dismiss the declaration as ego.

Yes, you did.

It's always the story-tellers fault for forcing the viewer/reader to story-guess their way through books and movies.

No you made that argument.
You're adding the faulty generalization, You're adding the individual perspective, you're adding the word "automatically". My statement was definitive. A lack of information leads to guessing which is not what story-tellers do. You hear what you want to hear. No one said automatically, but that's what you wanted to see. No one said perspective played a part but that''s what you conjured, that's your bias at work, that's you feelings making decisions before your brain does which is trying to justify the other.

This only provides further evidence that you have no idea what is going on in this film. "Could this be Klingon?" "Negative... we're 75,000 kilometers..."

The film NEVER says Klingon-Federation Border which was your assertion.

So why exactly would a Federation starship be patrolling behind Romulan borders at the beginning of the film? Why is this incursion into Romulan territory conspicuously never mentioned? You seem to misunderstand the fact that when Kirk says "the Kelvin attack took place at the edge of Klingon space", it is implicit that he's talking about the border with the Federation.

I didn't say it was behind Romulan borders.
Stop thinking so two Dimensionally. The film doesn't give us map...you're jumping to all kinds of unjustified conclusions.

It's clear that you think "threatens the entire galaxy" means the Hobus star can be wherever you want, but it's not really that simple. It is significant that Romulus was destroyed before any Federation or Klingon planet worthy of note, and that Spock's priority was to save Romulus.

I don't want anything.
But I can't say the same for you. The direction you've taken to justify the film is entirely depended on your Trek-ology which you've not realized that I'm not using. You're behaving as though continuity is intact...when there is little indication that it is. and many signs that it is not. Even worse we don't even know the absolute relation of the systems in the Prime Universe as it's called.

Wrong. That is only your assumption, which you cannot prove but insist on projecting upon the film. In Star Trek there are at least two Neutral Zones.

I don't care about Star Trek.
I care about Star Trek 2009. And in this movie there is one neutral zone. The assumptions here is all yours...you would have all of us rationalize on a thousand hours of TV and Movies to come to your understanding in a thread that is ALL about plot and in a plot only what's in the movie counts. (which you already know)

Since we've never seen red matter black holes before, there is no previously existing precedent for how they work. Thus, they work the way the film requires them to, which involves transportation in space as well as time.

Perhaps, perhaps not.
It's just a scientific plot hole and it can't be justified anyway because no one says they worked any differently.

What we know is the logic behind Kirk's guess that it was.

Logic is deduction...reasoning by subtraction. Not guessing.

How does what happened in the film have any similarity to a generic "Romulan attack"? The two factors of the massive Romulan ship and the lightning storm were only seen that one time in 2233 and never seen again until 2258 ( when both factors were observed in relatively close temporal proximity ).

False
There was no mention of a huge Romulan ship in the later report of attack.

Unfortunately, "if we didn't see it, it didn't happen" is still wrong and in no way logical.

It is logical to the definition of plot holes that there by what isn't in the film can't support the film.

Actually, you did:

But that was in the closed thread.

Well you finally got something right.
But it's since been corrected and i accepted that correction.

I didn't look up anything.

I don't believe you.
That was too opportune.

Have fun putting words in my mouth.

It is what you said down to the very meaning.
You may not have meant it that way but it is what you said and I can only go by your words. it's up to you make the meaning coherent.

The film alone made it sufficiently clear that they were near the Klingon-Federation border.

They never said Klingon-Federation border. That's what you wanted to hear and that's why you ignored the point 2x above.

I'd point out that I thought the film told a "proper story" by itself without any outside help,

And there is nothing wrong with that conclusion as you find it. Abrams was making a movie loosely based on the Trek Universe so he meant you in many ways to assume much of what we aren't seeing and outside Trek audiences wouldn't care anyway...so he's covered.

Your so-called "determinations"

They are self evident incosistences.

are based on rewriting the film into an unrecognizable condition, and thus they have no merit because they have nothing to do with the actual film.

At no time did I rewrite the film.

Case in point: unable to decided exactly what he wanted an how he wanted to go about getting it done. Nothing like that was ever shown in the film; you made it up.

He says he wanted to save Romulus...and he doesn't do it. This is Abrams wrote his words and his lack of action.

These are false statements.

The Nero Character causes his own own death obstructing his objectives in a very obvious way by failing to kill Kirk, Spock 2x and the Delivering Elder Spock to the Federation doorstep. The statements are absolute truth.

I rest my case.

...you had a case?

 

[Set Harth]

The film NEVER says Klingon-Federation Border which was your assertion.

I never said they used those exact words, I said they made it clear that was the case.

I didn't say it was behind Romulan borders.
Stop thinking so two Dimensionally.

Romulan borders are two-dimensional, eh? Stop thinking that a weak ploy of that nature actually accomplishes anything.

The film doesn't give us map...you're jumping to all kinds of unjustified conclusions.

I think you have us confused. I'm assuming that a Federation starship patrolling near Klingon space is on the Federation side of the Klingon border. If you're assuming it's not in Federation space at all, which is oddly never mentioned in the film, but is nearing some other Klingon border, which one of us is jumping to unjustified conclusions?

You're behaving as though continuity is intact...when there is no indication that it is. and many signs that it is not. Even worse we don't even know the absolute relation of the systems in the Prime Universe as it's called.

So much for "logic". This is what happens when you can't admit you didn't think through your desperate repositioning of Hobus.

And in this movie there is one neutral zone. The assumptions here is all yours...

You waste no time in contradicting yourself, that's for certain. That "in this movie there is one neutral zone" is only your inaccurate assumption. You are unable to prove it, so you resort to mere insistence.

It's just a scientific plot hole and it can't be justified anyway because no one says they worked any differently.

We've never seen RMBHs before so there's no prior example of how they work for STXI's example to "differ" from. But if ST not being accurate to the so-called "real science" of ordinary BHs is the problem... you might be following the wrong franchise.

I don't believe you.

Too bad. I didn't need Memory Alpha to think of that idea. Furthermore, your assumption is blatantly contradicted by the fact that Memory Alpha's Delta Vega page says absolutely nothing about it.

Let's recap: you don't believe that I could have obtained a theory without going to a Memory Alpha page that doesn't even mention it.

He says he wanted to save Romulus...and he doesn't do it.

You can't prove he didn't send a message to the Romulans, while the star did not pose a threat for another 130 years, and prematurely destroying the star during the timeframe of the film would likely cause the deaths of Romulan subjects before they could be evacuated.

At no time did I rewrite the film.

Right, it never happened. Is this an alternate timeline?

unable to decided exactly what he wanted an how he wanted to go about getting it done.

Nope, still has no resemblance to the film.

The Nero Character causes his own own death obstructing his objectives in a very obvious way by failing to kill Kirk, Spock 2x and the Delivering Elder Spock to the Federation doorstep.

This is a very obvious rewrite. Nero wasn't intentionally obstructing himself and had no way of knowing that Kirk would end up on Delta Vega.

It is what you said down to the very meaning.

Still wrong. My statement was a rejection of the idea that, I quote, it's always the story-tellers fault. That you see such rejection as an appeal to majority is not my doing.

 

[number6]

And the goal posts move again.

Must be a plot hole.

Nobody answered my question about Atoz's atavachron. Do you think he was a Holdsworth fan?

 

[Saquist]

I never said they used those exact words, I said they made it clear that was the case.]

You used the exact words...Klingon-Federation Border numerous times.

Romulan borders are two-dimensional, eh? Stop thinking that a weak ploy of that nature actually accomplishes anything.

Stop thinking 2 Dimensionally.
The false logic you've used is that if it's not Romulan then it must be Federation. There is no indication either way whose space they were in or it's proximity to what other space. Stop thinking 2 Dimensionally.

I think you have us confused. I'm assuming that a Federation starship patrolling near Klingon space is on the Federation side of the Klingon border.

I know exactly what you're saying and it's pure assumption.

If you're assuming it's not in Federation space at all, which is oddly never mentioned in the film, but is nearing some other Klingon border, which one of us is jumping to unjustified conclusions?

You don't know what I'm assuming.
The movie doesn't comment on where the Kelvin was specifically.

So much for "logic". This is what happens when you can't admit you didn't think through your desperate repositioning of Hobus.

In order for it to be repositioned it would have to have an original position which the film doesn't establish.

You waste no time in contradicting yourself, that's for certain. That "in this movie there is one neutral zone" is only your inaccurate assumption. You are unable to prove it, so you resort to mere insistence.

There is no contradiction.
There is only one Neutral Zone in Trek 2009.
The fact is self evident.

We've never seen RMBHs before so there's no prior example of how they work for STXI's example to "differ" from. But if ST not being accurate to the so-called "real science" of ordinary BHs is the problem... you might be following the wrong franchise.

At no time were they ever called. RMBHs.
They were called black hole and singularity.
At no time was any difference in between normal singularities and Red Matter induced singularities ever touched upon. In fact Spock says it was an artificially created black hole. He doesn't say anything else.

Too bad. I didn't need Memory Alpha to think of that idea. Furthermore, your assumption is blatantly contradicted by the fact that Memory Alpha's Delta Vega page says absolutely nothing about it.

The "absolutely nothing" you're refering to I presume...

For the unrelated planet of the same name in the Vulcan system, please see Delta Vega (Vulcan system).

Let's recap: you don't believe that I could have obtained a theory without going to a Memory Alpha page that doesn't even mention it.

So...short sighted...
So...eagar to gloat when you've accomplished...
So...little....

You can't prove he didn't send a message to the Romulans,

I don't have to.
If it's not in the movie then it's not included in the plot, then it didn't happen.

Right, it never happened. Is this an alternate timeline?

That depends on how it serves your agenda.

Nope, still has no resemblance to the film.

Indeed it does.

This is a very obvious rewrite. Nero wasn't intentionally obstructing himself and had no way of knowing that Kirk would end up on Delta Vega.

The movie certainly needs a rewrite but the intention is irrelevant. (especially because that wasn't part of my argument.) STRAWMAN.
If you would actually read for understanding you wouldn't have to Straw man your way through discussions.

Still wrong.

It is the proper understanding of what you wrote.

 

[M'Sharak]

Nobody answered my question about Atoz's atavachron. Do you think he was a Holdsworth fan?

Not too much doubt of that, really, and probably inclined as well to favor Chad Wackerman's more mechanical-sounding playing over Bruford's more fluid style.


That aside, let's everyone back off again on the personal stuff, or you'll put me in the position of having to close this thread, too.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Maybe the algorithms used to regulate the compensation weren't engineered with consideration for the possibility that Vulcan's gravitational field was being dynamically affected by red matter.

But that still doesn't adequately explain why the transporter would be able to cancel out some of the subject's momentum, but not all of it? Since it's re-creating and re-assembling molecules, why can't it just set the momentum of every molecule to "0"? And if it's not capable of changing the momentum of a moving object, then Kirk and Sulu should have died from the fall.

While we're at it, since when is adhering to common sense in science fiction the highest value? Many people don't understand real science, and can't even ballpark accurate scientific predictions with respect to accepted theory. Time dilation and quantum effects are examples of predictions that probably defy the "common sense" of many. Therefore, a universe of science fiction that strictly adheres to "common sense" is actually not the most plausible fictional universe.

Time dilation and quantum effects have nothing to do with common sense. Since you can't use common sense to explain them, then there's no way for them to "defy" something that doesn't explain them anyway. Falling from the sky and hitting the ground, on the other hand, is fairly easy to understand with common sense, so when the characters don't die from that, that makes it confusing and implausible.

It was not the behavior of gravity in isolation that I was referring to; it was the behavior of beaming an object falling in a gravitational field, especially one in violent and evidently unpredictable flux. If the behavior of beaming an object that is falling in a gravitational field strictly agrees with all expectations of "common sense", then the authors aren't doing a good enough job and I want a better author. But this is especially so when that field is in violent flux about to implode a planet, under the influence of some remarkable form of matter. The fact that that field should be in violent flux in ways that the algorithms in the transporter systems are likely incapable of accurately predicting is precisely a good enough reason for me to accept that the cancellation of momentum would not be perfect to materialize Kirk and Sulu at rest over the pad, since I'm willing to accept that, in these circumstances anyway, an unregulated amount of kinetic energy was introduced into their materialized molecules. Lucky for them it wasn't too far from zero. Next.

As for my usage of the phrase "defy common sense", I used that phrase in accordance with its common usage. The phrase "defy common sense" in quotes has about 361,000 results in Google; I won't defend how I used that phrase in the context I used it in further.

 

[number6]

Nobody answered my question about Atoz's atavachron. Do you think he was a Holdsworth fan?

Not too much doubt of that, really, and probably inclined as well to favor Chad Wackerman's more mechanical-sounding playing over Bruford's more fluid style.

I dunno...Wackerman's style seems kind of douchy, where Bruford is a little more thoughtful, even if it is a little more self reverential. A shame UK never made it into Trek canon. That's some quintessential Bruford right there.
John Wetton should play a Klingon in Trek XII.
How about him and Greg Lake? They could be the Duras Brothers...or something.......what?

I'm not saying this because they've both put on a few layers of baggage on the old frame..That would be rude. I say this because I believe they would make good pirates (hell, Lake wrote a whole concept piece about it!!) and I always thought that Trek made Klingons more into space pirates in the TOS era films..Trek needs space pirates. Can't you picture Lake and Wetton kicking back with some blood wine and roasted Targ?? I sure can. That would be freakin' sweet. Hey, If Iggy Pop and Mick Fleetwood can do it, why not?? I mean, John Freakin Tesh got to play a Klingon in TNG and he is a complete tool.