Are you sure it isn't time for a colorful metaphor?
Plot hole city: Part 3!
- Thread starter William Wallace
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Are you sure it isn't time for a colorful metaphor?
Lol and this is a good example of no critique at all. It is also an example of how not to answer an open question.
The answer was no, as in no plot hole was opened.
That's clearer, although still not a critique.
Would people prefer it if I used the term 'plot weakness' to refer to something absent from the plot that can be plugged with a made up explanation and 'plot hole' to refer to something that cannot be plugged at all?
Personally, I think the distinction is silly since the definition of a hole is then so narrow that I'd imagine it's almost impossible to come up with a true plot hole in ANY movie. It's also a bit pointless, since the same debate will rage but just substituting the word 'weakness' for 'hole' but whatever floats your boat if it helps you to sleep easier.
My take on the planet drilling thing is that it's unnecessary to take everything every character says literally. He may say that they've reached the core but so what? It would make little difference to Vulcan whether the singularity is opened precisely at the core or within the mantle would it? All the singularity needs to grow is fuel within reach of its gravitational pull. It might make a slight difference to the speed with which the planet is destroyed but so what? Nero could hang at the event horizon and pick off anybody who tried to escape if he spent less time drilling. Pros and cons.
Based on wiki's definition of a plot hole I am still convinced that none of the things mentioned in these three threads are actual full blown plot holes. The closest I have seen to one is the "How did the Enterprise catch up to the Narada?" argument. This would be one if no mention of the Enterprise increasing its speed was made.
Yeah the speed thing covers 'a blatant omission of relevant information' because they don't explain why Nero (who is travelling faster than the Enterprise can catch when she leaves Vulcan) slows down to such a slow speed that Enterprise can still catch her later after travelling for an unspecified but quite lengthy period of time in the wrong direction and then in the right direction at speeds that are far below her maximum. It also covers the 'unlikely behaviour or actions of characters' and 'illogical... events' and it is 'one that is essential to the story's outcome'.
You can try to scrape a pass by claiming that he travels slowly so that he has time to acquire the defence codes from Pike but that excuse falls into the 'illogical... events' category because he takes so long that any one of the Enterprise, escaping Vulcan ships, or Scotty's outpost has plenty of time to warn Earth that Pike has been captured and that Nero is on his way, which would give Earth plenty of time to change its defence codes. You can only get around that excuse by claiming that every communications device was either damaged or everybody forgot, which falls within the 'unlikely behaviour or actions of characters' category. It is also possible to cite 'unlikely behaviour or actions' against suggestions that Starfleet has no protocol to change its defence codes in emergencies when you consider that this fictional universe contains the known dangers of telepaths, Klingon mind sifters, and mind controlling parasites. In fact, from TWoK we already know that it is possible to change a Prefix Code on a ship.
Speed of plot can be cited but speed of plot can, in itself, constitute a plot hole if it is an 'inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot' or where it constitutes 'events that contradict earlier events in the storyline' such as travel times or the fact that we are told that Nero is travelling faster than the Enterprise can travel.
It's true that while they ask Scotty to tease warp 4 later, he could have grossly exceeded expectations, although this isn't stated or implied and it only saves a bit of time because you still have to allow Kirk several hours, and possibly up to a day to regain consciousness, trek a dozen KM across the snow, spend some time chatting to Spock Prime, travel across the snow again with a geriatric Vulcan, spend some time chatting to Scotty, and spend some time modifying the transporters. That's an awful lot of spare time and so you still require Nero to be travelling quite slowly from the start.
I think it qualifies under the wikipedia definition as a plot hole.
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Definitely. Conversation is impossible if not everyone uses the same terminology.
This being said, there is a gray area in between the two extremes; there are many ways that things can go wrong. I'm comfortable with the explanations that have been given in these threads (some much more than others, though*), in that compared to other explanations that are routine in Star Trek they are not too far-fetched. The more outlandish an explanation needed to repair the weakness gets, the closer the weakness comes to being a hole that can't really be repaired.
(* - Much of the stuff discussed in the earlier threads didn't even show up on my radar as anything that required special attention. This thread is the first of the three actually to point out real weakness in the story. Not that this list is necessarily exhaustive.)
As to Scotty switching off his space beeper, a further point. Call him irresponsible all you want, but the dude beamed Archer's dog away and got sent to the ass end of space. We already know he's irresponsible and a danger to the beings around him. Objecting to those character traits is one thing, but if he does something else irresponsible like switching off his beeper, then that's completely in character.
Irresponsible or just fed up with its awful gas? I like to think of it as the cyborg remnant of the dog from ST: Enterprise - more like Muffet 2 than a real dog. Scattering its atoms was a kindness - probably a black op sponsored by Section 31 who are renowned as animal lovers
Why do we assume the Narada is capable of traveling at "TNG Speeds?" We know virtually nothing about the Narada save that it is big and tough. Hell over in Romulan space the Narada's keel could be being laid at the exact same time as Kirk's Enterprise's.
Regardless of when it's built I see no reason to assume the Romulans would make fast interstellar travel a design priority for a mining ship. For example, a Roadheader will tear the shit out of your car, but will barely be on the road before you're done with your daily commute.
ETA: Ah the Klingon space thing.. that's why we're assuming eh? I don't recall the dialogue. Does it clearly state that the Narada is in Klingon space right before attacking Vulcan?
I always assumed part of the drill's function was to shore up the hole on the way down. I know that would take some pretty amazing stuff to withstand the massive pressure, but we're talking about people who can travel faster than light and instantaneously move from one place to another. I don't think a drill that turns the walls of it's hole into 3 feet of neutronium is really that far-fetched.
I'm more concerned with how the core is supposed to be rotating and the effects that would have on any hole drilled from the surface.
I don't recall the precise dialogue either regarding the Klingon attack but it's in the scene with Gaila. Later, on the Enterprise, when discussing the lightning storm, Kirk says that the report came in the night before. So Nero can travel from Romulan space to Vulcan in a short space of time too. However, even if they had left time between scenes, it would have needed to be quite a long period of perhaps a week or so to justify the Narada taking ages to get to Earth because the distance is relatively short.
Within naked eye distance of Vulcan is the ass end of space?
Not only did Scotty not respond to the escape pod distress call but he didn`t respond to Vulcan distress calls either. On top of that, he just beamed away with Kirk for no reason. So he can`t say he couldn`t respond to the distress calls because he couldn`t abandon his post.
Regarding how close Delta Vega is to Vulcan (rom http://trekmovie.com/2009/05/18/orci-kurtzman-to-answer-fan-questions-at-trekmovie-transcript-of-last-weeks-impromptu-qa/, and cited through http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Delta_Vega_(Vulcan_system)):
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I never said his rationale was that he couldn't leave his post.
The whole Delta Vegas thing was simply to have the amazing coincidence of Kirk, Spock and Scotty all being withing a days walk of each other on an otherwise unihabited planet. Not amout of "it wasn't very cinematic" won't change the fact that things happened as they did because otherwise the story would have collapsed.
Did Nero know that the base was on Delta Vega when he standed Spock? If so, why place him so close. If not, then how did he end up so close with an entire planet to choose from?
It's a popcorn movie. It's not intended to withstand scutiny. It's intended to be a fast paced action movie. The plot is secondary.
Did Nero know that the base was on Delta Vega when he standed Spock? If so, why place him so close. If not, then how did he end up so close with an entire planet to choose from?
It's a popcorn movie. It's not intended to withstand scutiny. It's intended to be a fast paced action movie. The plot is secondary.
Kinda like in The Voyage Home, when the Bird of Prey comes out of time warp at the exact instant that Cartwright is yelling, "Get him back! Get him back!", and in the exact spot so that Sarek can point out the broken window and cry, "Look!"
Or in The City on the Edge of Forever when Kirk and Spock wind up in the exact place McCoy is going to show up.
It's nothing new.
No, which is the disappointment. They had a chance to improve upon things and they simply gave us more simplistic plots. We even thought that there'd be a movie where the Enterprise wasn't the only ship in range but they even managed to take that away from us. Everyone else go boom! They only survived because Sulu was incompetent.
I still wonder why they couldn't have the Enterprise scanning the wreckage of the fleet for survivors. Scotty, being the chief engineer of the Farragut, gets beamed aboard, and overhears a report that the Enterprise's chief engineer has been killed. He immediately walks to Spock, explains his love and knowledge for the Enterprise ship class and convinces him he's the best for the job.
Kirk isn't exiled, he's put in a brig. The "out of your Vulcan mind" dialog between McCoy and Spock would have been the same. Old Spock walks to the outpost on Delta Vega, witnesses the destruction of Vulcan, and recognizes the Enterprise on sensors. He actively contacts the Enterprise, requesting "Captain James T. Kirk" with "information about the Romulan Nero" and requests a meeting with Kirk in the outpost.
Young Spock ponders about that, and then decides to give it a shot. Kirk is beamed down alone. Old Spock wonders why Kirk isn't Captain, mindmeld, tells Kirk he needs to take command, Kirk beams back, gets on Young Spocks nerves, breakdown, rest of the film is the same.
Kirk isn't exiled, he's put in a brig. The "out of your Vulcan mind" dialog between McCoy and Spock would have been the same. Old Spock walks to the outpost on Delta Vega, witnesses the destruction of Vulcan, and recognizes the Enterprise on sensors. He actively contacts the Enterprise, requesting "Captain James T. Kirk" with "information about the Romulan Nero" and requests a meeting with Kirk in the outpost.
Young Spock ponders about that, and then decides to give it a shot. Kirk is beamed down alone. Old Spock wonders why Kirk isn't Captain, mindmeld, tells Kirk he needs to take command, Kirk beams back, gets on Young Spocks nerves, breakdown, rest of the film is the same.
Hm, yeah, you're right. People would have thought the movie lacked a monster scene in the middle.
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