• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Planets. Armed and powered as only a planet can be armed and powered.

Re: Planets. Armed and powered as only a planet can be armed and powe

But the MDP ships/missiles only took action when their target was within visual range of Mars - indicating that they would only be good for two applications:

a) stopping an Earth-bound enemy who thinks two-dimensionally and thus feels compelled to fly past Mars
b) stopping an enemy whose target is Mars

Personally, I think that MDP is there solely to defend Mars, and plays no role in defending Earth. Each of the inhabited or industrially significant planets in the Sol system would have their own Defense Perimeter - we heard the one at Jupiter tackle the Borg and fail, we saw some of the Mars action, and we missed the Saturn action but did see the prelude or aftermath where the Cube flew past that planet.

Also, I like to think that these clearly nacelle-equipped ships/missiles are older corvettes or similar small starships that have been converted into flying bombs after retirement. The overall design isn't all that different from the TOS-R Aurora, so I could easily see these ships act as fully crewed small patrol vessels in the 2240s-60s Starfleet - perhaps with proper ramscoops on the nacelle forward ends, and a bridge about where the conning tower of a submarine would go. Those features would be removed in the conversion to kamikaze drone, and antimatter charges installed, perhaps where the silos of the submarine hull are.

(Incidentally, was the central hull of the ship/missile created out of a "stock" Typhoon class submarine kit, or a dedicated Red October kit? Does the latter even exist? If it does, and was used, then the next question is, does this model follow Tom Clancy's lead in featuring an increased number of missile silos, 26 against the 20 of a standard Typhoon? Anybody?)

Timo Saloniemi

I do know that the "Red October Typhoon" model kit doesn't have a bow mounted sonar dome while the "stock Typhoons" (which IIRC one came out AFTER The Hunt for Red October) DOES have an obvious (and large) bow mounted sonar dome.

You've got to hand it to the Soviets.

They might've built a lot of war weapons that were not that useful or effective.

But they were visually impressive as hell.
 
Re: Planets. Armed and powered as only a planet can be armed and powe

Can anyone answer this question?

Why did Mars disappear in TBOBW II?
 
Re: Planets. Armed and powered as only a planet can be armed and powe

I must have missed that part. Can you clarify?
 
Re: Planets. Armed and powered as only a planet can be armed and powe

Can anyone answer this question?

Why did Mars disappear in TBOBW II?

Not quite understanding your question. Are you asking why the Borg ignored a planet with presumably tens if not hundreds of thousands of people living on it. Or are you asking why the planet was not shown "on screen". I don't remember to be honest, whether it was or not.
 
Re: Planets. Armed and powered as only a planet can be armed and powe

Well, the flyby of the Cube past Mars is visually a bit confusing. The camera follows the Cube from right to left; at first, we see Mars to the left, and the three missiles approach the Cube from left to right. Then the Cube blasts those out of the sky, and moves to the center of the view. The camera follows while the Cube disappears to the left - and supposedly pans across the spot where we last saw Mars. But we don't see Mars this time around!

However, the way it's shot, it appears likely that Mars simply hides behind the Cube during this flyby. I don't know if this was the artistic intention of the VFX team, but it certainly works as an explanation for why we don't see the red planet a second time during the pan.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Re: Planets. Armed and powered as only a planet can be armed and powe

Even though it doesn't make any sense to begin with when Mars contains Utopia Planitia with dozens if not hundreds of shipyards, bases, and likely ships.
 
Re: Planets. Armed and powered as only a planet can be armed and powe

Umm, what doesn't make sense?

Surely it makes sense, for the exact reasons you specify, that the Borg would take an interest in Mars. Thus, a close flyby of that planet would be on their schedule before they started the assimilation of Earth's populance, if indeed that was their goal. The Borg would eliminate any threat remaining at or near Mars before proceeding to Earth, just like they had eliminated the threat from Jupiter some moments before.

Of course, there would be no starships at Mars. Only an idiot would leave ships there when the decisive battle was to be fought at Wolf 359; in classic naval warfare, the side that has "reserves" will automatically lose, because reserves serve no purpose in that sort of warfare. You bring everything you have to the site of the decisive battle, and you win that battle because you outgun the enemy.

For the same reason, there would be no sublight/short range defensive vessels at Mars. Those would have been at the decisive insystem battle at Jupiter, just like the starships were at Wolf 359. All that would remain at Mars or Earth would be the fixed fortifications, and possibly the temporarily immobile starships and lesser vessels.

It seems unlikely the Borg would have stopped to destroy the Utopia Planitia yards or any half-finished ships there. A conventional enemy interested in raiding and withdrawing might do that, but the Borg would have nothing to fear from a shipyard, and would no doubt wish to assimilate it later on. But if Mars had fancy defensive weapons similar in relative power to the comet-deflecting cannon we saw in ENT "Demons"/"Terra Prime", those would have been neutralized. To some degree, Picard/Locutus might also have exerted his influence to protect the unthreatening assets from wanton destruction.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Re: Planets. Armed and powered as only a planet can be armed and powe

But the MDP ships/missiles only took action when their target was within visual range of Mars - indicating that they would only be good for two applications:

a) stopping an Earth-bound enemy who thinks two-dimensionally and thus feels compelled to fly past Mars
b) stopping an enemy whose target is Mars

Personally, I think that MDP is there solely to defend Mars, and plays no role in defending Earth. Each of the inhabited or industrially significant planets in the Sol system would have their own Defense Perimeter - we heard the one at Jupiter tackle the Borg and fail, we saw some of the Mars action, and we missed the Saturn action but did see the prelude or aftermath where the Cube flew past that planet.

Also, I like to think that these clearly nacelle-equipped ships/missiles are older corvettes or similar small starships that have been converted into flying bombs after retirement. The overall design isn't all that different from the TOS-R Aurora, so I could easily see these ships act as fully crewed small patrol vessels in the 2240s-60s Starfleet - perhaps with proper ramscoops on the nacelle forward ends, and a bridge about where the conning tower of a submarine would go. Those features would be removed in the conversion to kamikaze drone, and antimatter charges installed, perhaps where the silos of the submarine hull are.

(Incidentally, was the central hull of the ship/missile created out of a "stock" Typhoon class submarine kit, or a dedicated Red October kit? Does the latter even exist? If it does, and was used, then the next question is, does this model follow Tom Clancy's lead in featuring an increased number of missile silos, 26 against the 20 of a standard Typhoon? Anybody?)

Timo Saloniemi

I'm pretty sure I had a Red October as a kid. I don't think it was just a Typhoon-class.

I'd like to add that Mars, with the Utopia Planitia Yards, is as far as we know a much more valuable military target than Earth. It would make sense to protect it as much or more than Earth.

My own conception is that Earth must have planetary shields. If they did not, North America would be a smoking wreck. I don't care what Trek writers think antimatter can't do.

Still, like ship-based shields, the planet-based ones did not entirely prevent damage from the Breen attack, but reduced the damage to manageable levels.

Another possibility is that the Breen brought down the major planetary shields and only the independent units, such as protecting major metropolitan areas and Starfleet Command and the president's office, continued operating. In this case, the damage to San Francisco is indirect, the result of one or more nearby matter-antimatter detonations. British Columbia no longer exists. That's okay, from all appearances, the eastern seaboard has been going back to nature since World War III (NYC's never been mentioned in Trek, nor has Washington), and this would make things nice and symmetrical.

I'd submit that torpedo launchers are probably pretty common on Earth, and even more common in Earth orbit, but actual ground-based phasers are verboten, for the simple reason that a phaser blast of sufficient power to reach and harm a starship would be similar to detonating a nuclear weapon.

Finally, to address the issue of cloaked torpedoes (essentially ICBMs for the Star Trek age)... for sound dramatic purposes, they surely didn't want to go down that road. I suppose the answer lies in the fact that any spaceborne vehicle requires significant fuel. A cloaked torpedo even moreso. Perhaps it requires so much fuel that the vehicle might as well be a fully-manned and fully-operational starship.
 
Re: Planets. Armed and powered as only a planet can be armed and powe

Anyone know in what book (if any, thus far) it was explained how Sonya Gomez of the daVinci managed to "hide" a planet from the Borg invasion in Destiny?
 
Re: Planets. Armed and powered as only a planet can be armed and powe

But the MDP ships/missiles only took action when their target was within visual range of Mars - indicating that they would only be good for two applications:

a) stopping an Earth-bound enemy who thinks two-dimensionally and thus feels compelled to fly past Mars
b) stopping an enemy whose target is Mars

Personally, I think that MDP is there solely to defend Mars, and plays no role in defending Earth. Each of the inhabited or industrially significant planets in the Sol system would have their own Defense Perimeter - we heard the one at Jupiter tackle the Borg and fail, we saw some of the Mars action, and we missed the Saturn action but did see the prelude or aftermath where the Cube flew past that planet.

Also, I like to think that these clearly nacelle-equipped ships/missiles are older corvettes or similar small starships that have been converted into flying bombs after retirement. The overall design isn't all that different from the TOS-R Aurora, so I could easily see these ships act as fully crewed small patrol vessels in the 2240s-60s Starfleet - perhaps with proper ramscoops on the nacelle forward ends, and a bridge about where the conning tower of a submarine would go. Those features would be removed in the conversion to kamikaze drone, and antimatter charges installed, perhaps where the silos of the submarine hull are.

(Incidentally, was the central hull of the ship/missile created out of a "stock" Typhoon class submarine kit, or a dedicated Red October kit? Does the latter even exist? If it does, and was used, then the next question is, does this model follow Tom Clancy's lead in featuring an increased number of missile silos, 26 against the 20 of a standard Typhoon? Anybody?)

Timo Saloniemi

I'm pretty sure I had a Red October as a kid. I don't think it was just a Typhoon-class.

I'd like to add that Mars, with the Utopia Planitia Yards, is as far as we know a much more valuable military target than Earth. It would make sense to protect it as much or more than Earth.

My own conception is that Earth must have planetary shields. If they did not, North America would be a smoking wreck. I don't care what Trek writers think antimatter can't do.

Still, like ship-based shields, the planet-based ones did not entirely prevent damage from the Breen attack, but reduced the damage to manageable levels.

Another possibility is that the Breen brought down the major planetary shields and only the independent units, such as protecting major metropolitan areas and Starfleet Command and the president's office, continued operating. In this case, the damage to San Francisco is indirect, the result of one or more nearby matter-antimatter detonations. British Columbia no longer exists. That's okay, from all appearances, the eastern seaboard has been going back to nature since World War III (NYC's never been mentioned in Trek, nor has Washington), and this would make things nice and symmetrical.

I'd submit that torpedo launchers are probably pretty common on Earth, and even more common in Earth orbit, but actual ground-based phasers are verboten, for the simple reason that a phaser blast of sufficient power to reach and harm a starship would be similar to detonating a nuclear weapon.

Finally, to address the issue of cloaked torpedoes (essentially ICBMs for the Star Trek age)... for sound dramatic purposes, they surely didn't want to go down that road. I suppose the answer lies in the fact that any spaceborne vehicle requires significant fuel. A cloaked torpedo even moreso. Perhaps it requires so much fuel that the vehicle might as well be a fully-manned and fully-operational starship.

Between the two of you, it sounds about right to me. ;)
 
Re: Planets. Armed and powered as only a planet can be armed and powe

Earth does have planetary defence installations as we hear about them from Odo during "Homefront". The planet-wide power outage disables them and Sisko and Leyton then declare Earth to be "defenceless". At that point there only seems to be one Starfleet vessel in orbit, the Lakota, as it is the only ship mentioned in the plan to mobile Starfleet forces with its transporters. Given that we've seen large powerful space stations in orbit as well you could take Sisko and Leyton's concerns that the planet was "defenceless" to mean that the bulk of Earth's defences were planetary based. Then again it simply might be hyperbole on their parts.

Ty'Gokor was protected by a powerful deflector shield, which could mean the entire planetoid or just the military base.
 
Re: Planets. Armed and powered as only a planet can be armed and powe

Given that we've seen large powerful space stations in orbit as well you could take Sisko and Leyton's concerns that the planet was "defenceless" to mean that the bulk of Earth's defences were planetary based.
The sabotage could have extended to the power systems of those orbital installations, too. I mean, it was already a seemingly impossible feat of affecting thousands of non-interconnected systems at the same time - extending the work a few hundred kilometers upwards shouldn't be that much more of an effort. The President's surprise at the sight of a working transporter would be all the more valid, then: how come the starship in orbit wasn't sabotaged along with all those stations and fortresses in orbit? Leyton never bothered to explain, and Jaresh-Inyo never pressed the issue, but it did look very, very suspicious...

Then again it simply might be hyperbole on their parts.
Leyton would certainly wish to concentrate all aid efforts on the starship he had already coopted for his scheme. He might lie to that end, or simply not bother to remind the President that it would be technically possible to use another one of the four or five starships in orbit. Certainly using just a single ship would be a valid choice, and OTOH Leyton never quite specifies he intends to use just that single vessel. He merely says he's going to use her.

Ty'Gokor was protected by a powerful deflector shield, which could mean the entire planetoid or just the military base.
I'm not sure there would have been anything of worth on the planetoid...

Timo Saloniemi
 
Re: Planets. Armed and powered as only a planet can be armed and powe

Finally, to address the issue of cloaked torpedoes (essentially ICBMs for the Star Trek age)... for sound dramatic purposes, they surely didn't want to go down that road. I suppose the answer lies in the fact that any spaceborne vehicle requires significant fuel. A cloaked torpedo even moreso. Perhaps it requires so much fuel that the vehicle might as well be a fully-manned and fully-operational starship.
Well, they took the idea of cloaked missiles very seriously in Blaze of Glory (even if it ultimately turned out to be a hoax, these wouldn't have been short-range by any manner or means, with a travel time of eleven days). If it was completely ridiculous, they would have dismissed it out of hand, or at least mentioned that.
 
Re: Planets. Armed and powered as only a planet can be armed and powe

^Point. We might choose to believe that was relatively short-range, though.
 
Re: Planets. Armed and powered as only a planet can be armed and powe

I'd think a single ship would come up short against a planetary defence network most every time, except, it seems, when that ship is packing "red matter" with a delivery system that can breach those defences - No Death Stars required.
 
Re: Planets. Armed and powered as only a planet can be armed and powe

Any single-shot-kills weapon, combined with a cloak, would seem to suffice for turning a single starship into a strategic success story. Thus, things like Genesis, red matter, trilithium, nanodust and so forth would seem like valid strategic threats. Even a humungous antimatter charge as in VOY "Dreadnought" should work.

Combining this, and the fact that typically an enemy can send a multi-hundred-ship cloaked fleet against the Feds, one is more or less forced to think that these strategic threats are not countered by defensive weaponry, but solely by interstellar treaties and a fear of reprisal in kind.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Re: Planets. Armed and powered as only a planet can be armed and powe

If that's the case, why didn't the Dominion just lay waste to every major planet in the Alpha Quadrant, especially once they started losing? They didn't care about reprisals and didn't care about killing trillions of solids.
 
Re: Planets. Armed and powered as only a planet can be armed and powe

If that's the case, why didn't the Dominion just lay waste to every major planet in the Alpha Quadrant, especially once they started losing? They didn't care about reprisals and didn't care about killing trillions of solids.

I think they did. Even Dukat seemed shocked by the suggestion that Earth alone might get this treatment, and didn't seem to want it seriously considered. The Breen didn't want to wreck some of these worlds, but clearly wanted to control them; that was their whole interest in joining up. Probably Dukat thought something similar when he had the Cardassian Union join: that most of the Dominion masters would go back to the Gamma Quadrant and he'd control most of the planets on our side of the wormhole (and/or did he make some hints about overthrowing them at some point?). And I'm sure the Breen, the Cardassians, and any Founders stuck in places where the alliance could strike at them did fear reprisals in kind. Why wouldn't they? I bet the Romulans have it in them to do this if they felt they were seriously threatened.

The Cardassian "dreadnought" weapon is a clear indication that thinking along these lines does happen, but so far no one's been psycho enough to push the conflicts to that level.
 
Re: Planets. Armed and powered as only a planet can be armed and powe

One wonders what good it would do to destroy a planet. Destroying Earth would not help the Klingons conquer the galaxy, because Starfleet could still retaliate in kind, and keep on hindering the Klingon conquest attempts just like before the loss of Earth. Destroying Earth would only serve to hurt and enrage the Federation - and hurting and enraging are unlikely to be worthwhile strategic goals.

What Klingons (or Romulans, or Cardassians) want is control of all those planets that they now have to share with their competitors. They can't gain control of those planets by destroying them, and they can't gain control of those planets by destroying the homeworlds of the competitors. It's just too risky to try the berserker routine when one is open to retribution; berserking is viable as a first strike, if by "first" one means "we're several centuries or millennia ahead of the victims in terms of space combat capability"...

Planet-busting is no doubt a good blackmail weapon, but only at the highest level. If such blackmail worked on lower levels, then surely New York would have been nuked several times by now, in order to force a favorable outcome in some third world bush war? Planet-busters may be the reason why the Feds agreed to the Treaty of Algeron, but they aren't a weapon of war.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Re: Planets. Armed and powered as only a planet can be armed and powe

I'm enjoying the conversation.

The problem with planet busters, and their non-use in Star Trek (although "cestus 3 has been destroyed" rings my bell, and yes, its a colony) is that it presumes some level of rationality on the part of the aggressor.

The Xindi in fact were going to destroy the planet, and even the survivors. The only thing that saved Earth was the fact that their test-shot was AGAINST earth, instead of on a separate target, so that our heroes could react. (pretty stupid, really). Is there any doubt that they could have succeeded against then-Starfleet or that the superweapon couldn't have been upgraded over the next few hundred years? Add a cloak and you've got a heck of a deterrent.

I think its clear all major powers have planet-destroying capabilities, things that make the Romulan attack on the Founders look like a pop gun. Psychologically, and in terms of facilities, manpower, and such it would be devastating to lose, oh, a few billion people on a core planet.

Yes, there might be retaliation, but that presumes you could determine who to retaliate against!

Since we know there are such things as "planetary defenses" (they go down all of the time, though), i'm going to take it that there are serious threats, and serious planetary monitoring capabilities to compensate. Things of larger scale than the ships we see, that have more power, more capability, more ability to sense through cloaks, etc. Otherwise... almost any random Klingon or Romulan starship captain could concoct a cloaked nuke/antimatter weapon and their government could correctly claim "we didn't do it".

So can the "armed and powered" planets be mobile? While we have seen some large, mobile planet-busters... think the Doomsday machine... most cultures seem to use ships, not asteroid bases, as their basic mobile platform. So i'm going to argue that mobile armed planets are outside technology range we see, or just aren't needed in light of starship capabilities.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top