Planetary Distances From The Sun and Time.

[Kahless the Unforgettable]

So ... True Time is a non-real thing that always existed and will always exist, but is not observable, and it's what laymen are thinking of when they talk about time, but it's scientists who are confused.

No. I didn't say they were confused at all. In fact, they knew there was a difference, hence the creation of the term "space-time."

And by non-real, I mean it's purely conceptional. It can't be contorted, distorted, or altered due to things like gravity, distance, or speed. It's just a base measurement, only one we can't really do anything with because space-time obfuscates it so heavily. We simply don't have the means (or any real motivation to find the means) yet.

Especially when people like you pop up and try to mock the concept. In fact, it's actually pretty sad how pigheaded so many physicists (real or armchair) are. I mean, they had to make up dark matter/energy just to prove how awesome their math is; completely ignoring the fact that they actually did have to make it up in order to do so. But hey, they did, and it kinda works, so problem solved! *thumbs up* There totally wasn't anything before the Big Bang though. True story. Nothing wrong with that idea at all!

Snarkiness aside, I'll sum it up for you: We focus on space-time because it's what we can observe and which affects everything we can observe and measure. True time is 100% just a concept; there was a time before the Big Bang, there was a time when the Big Bang happened, and there was a time after the Big Bang. We just have no way whatsoever to measure, observe, or demonstrate it. You know, just like tons of other things that exist only as a concept.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Quick, send for a metaphysicist!

 

[PurpleBuddha]

So the subject of time being a concept or a real thing is very much unanswered. It may be made of particles or it may be nothing other than an emergent property, or something else completely. If you ever see anyone on this forum or elsewhere claiming they know it is one or the other, they don't. We have no idea if it is purely conceptual or more fundamental. But many philosophical arguments can and should be made on both sides.

For anyone interested in watching Lee Smolin wax philosophical about this, here is a decent lecture where he presents some of his arguments:

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Lee argues that the old paradigm in physics, that time is basically an illusion (just a concept), is wrong.

 

[Nebusj]

Snarkiness aside, I'll sum it up for you: We focus on space-time because it's what we can observe and which affects everything we can observe and measure. True time is 100% just a concept; there was a time before the Big Bang, there was a time when the Big Bang happened, and there was a time after the Big Bang. We just have no way whatsoever to measure, observe, or demonstrate it. You know, just like tons of other things that exist only as a concept.

Well, this convinces me about True Time.

 

[psCargile]

Entropy moves in one direction, and that is real.

 

[publiusr]

Here is something you might find interesting. Not only do the Sun and Moon seem the same size in our sky--but if you put all the planets in a row--it would equal the Earth-Moon distance:
https://forum.cosmoquest.org/showth...-planets-could-fit-between-the-Earth-and-Moon

Then Planet Nine had to go and ruin my anthropic parade...

Dream worlds and space games
https://forum.cosmoquest.org/showthread.php?162186-Virtual-worlds
http://www.astronomycast.com/2016/09/ep-421-space-games/

 

[Doom Shepherd]

the Sun and Moon seem the same size in our sky/

Except during annular eclipses.

Which will eventually be all eclipses... I wonder what the "God created the universe with mathematical precision because we are EXACTLY the right distance from the sun (no) and the Moon and Sun are EXACTLY the same diameter during eclipses" creationist crowd will do then.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Elliptical orbits (and variations in their ellipticity) defeat attempts to find mystical meanings for their values. Despite his success in correctly deducing that orbits are ellipses, Johannes Kepler himself attempted to find meaning of their orbital parameters in terms of the geometric solids and failed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Kepler#Mysterium_Cosmographicum

 

[Dryson]

So the subject of time being a concept or a real thing is very much unanswered. It may be made of particles or it may be nothing other than an emergent property, or something else completely. If you ever see anyone on this forum or elsewhere claiming they know it is one or the other, they don't. We have no idea if it is purely conceptual or more fundamental. But many philosophical arguments can and should be made on both sides.

For anyone interested in watching Lee Smolin wax philosophical about this, here is a decent lecture where he presents some of his arguments:

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Lee argues that the old paradigm in physics, that time is basically an illusion (just a concept), is wrong.

Time is the measurable distance between energetic reactions taking place within a medium that is either affected by the energetic reaction or is not affected. If there is not any reactions taking place to measure then would time still exist?

How would you know if time existed if there wasn't any reactions taking place to create the process of movement?

I would have to say that time is an aeffectation or both the words affect and effect combined together.

Time can be a particle because of reactions taking place within the particle that create movement that can be measured.

Time doesn't have to be a particle but can be a measurable distance between two points within a medium where energetic reactions are taking place or from one side of the medium to the other side.

...but

The underlying question is...

We know that time exists because of energetic reactions. But does time exist without energetic reactions?

 

[Gov Kodos]

With enough ganj and music, that post might start making sense.

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[Asbo Zaprudder]

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[Gov Kodos]

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[exocomp]

I seem to remember that the orbit of Mercury was the only natural occurrence showing a measurable discrepancy with Newton's law of universal gravitation before Einstein came up with his General relativity.

 

[Gov Kodos]

I seem to remember that the orbit of Mercury was the only natural occurrence showing a measurable discrepancy with Newton's law of universal gravitation before Einstein came up with his General relativity.

Yup, hence the theory of an unknown inner planet, Vulcan, throwing off the orbit, much like hypothesized and discovered Neptune was affecting Uranus's orbit. Einstein's theory showed it was space, itself, which was funky thanks to the gravity of the sun.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Einstein's theory showed it was space, itself, which was funky thanks to the gravity of the sun.

To be nit-picky, spacetime rather than space alone:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tests_of_general_relativity#Perihelion_precession_of_Mercury

 

[publiusr]

Unless neo-newtonians get their way
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/splitting-time-from-space/
https://arxiv.org/abs/1501.01614

 

[exocomp]

To be nit-picky, spacetime rather than space alone:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tests_of_general_relativity#Perihelion_precession_of_Mercury

I don't believe that there is such a thing as space alone.

 

[PurpleBuddha]

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