Pike - not sure if this hasnt been asked before.

[Timo]

It's an explicit and unqualified statement by one of the characters - all attempts to make it fit with the rest of what's established in the episode require rationalizations and debatable interpretations, but the line itself stands as an unambiguous statement.

But it's only a contradiction to the rest of the story if one reads it in a certain way. And reading it the other way is not merely a "legitimate way out", it is in fact a likely, rather commonplace and fully natural way for the writer of that line to have expressed his intention that Pike be older than Kirk.

IMHO, it's a gross reading error rather than a writing error if one thinks Mendez there is saying that Pike is the same age as Kirk. The verb in that sentence is not in the present tense, but is missing, so we might not immediately realize that it is supposed to be in the past tense. Pike was the same age as Kirk. Pike was a strapping hunk in the prime of his life. He is neither of those any more, which is the very point of Mendez' line.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

IMHO, it's a gross reading error rather than a writing error if one thinks Mendez there is saying that Pike is the same age as Kirk. The verb in that sentence is not in the present tense, but is missing, so we might not immediately realize that it is supposed to be in the past tense. Pike was the same age as Kirk. Pike was a strapping hunk in the prime of his life. He is neither of those any more, which is the very point of Mendez' line.

We already had Trek canon, and now we have Trek exegesis. It really is a religion!

 

[Garibaldi O'brien]

That's what happened, when they cast Pike as Jesus, the creation of the sci-fi religion that doesn't take all your money.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

It's an explicit and unqualified statement by one of the characters - all attempts to make it fit with the rest of what's established in the episode require rationalizations and debatable interpretations, but the line itself stands as an unambiguous statement.

But it's only a contradiction to the rest of the story if one reads it in a certain way. And reading it the other way is not merely a "legitimate way out", it is in fact a likely, rather commonplace and fully natural way for the writer of that line to have expressed his intention that Pike be older than Kirk.

No.

Mendez describes Pike as "About your age."

The way to read that line is that Pike is "About your age."

Any other interpretation is just the reader creating something on their own in order to reconcile the script with what makes sense to them. It ain't on the page and it ain't even in Throne's delivery.

Roddenberry wrote the wrapper for this show in a hurry. Given that Shatner was only a couple of years older than Hunter, GR may well have dashed off the line without giving it much thought. That is a possible explanation, but it is of course just as fabricated as is the suggestion that "About your age" was intended to be read as something other than "About your age." What we do know with certainty is that Mendez's character was made to say that Pike and Kirk were about the same age.

All of which is moot in the new film, of course, as Pike is now much older than Spock or Kirk.

It's fun to speculate, to try to come up with imaginative ways to reconcile seemingly unreconcilable artifacts of years of somewhat loosely linked stories in even more loosely linked television series and movies...

I thought so too, well into the 1980s. I came to find it tedious and an unworthy use of energy at about the same time I realized that I had eaten all of the McDonald's hamburgers that I wanted and that there was no reason to ever choose to eat another.

 

[Timo]

Mendez describes Pike as "About your age." The way to read that line is that Pike is "About your age."

But you are completely ignoring the context of what was said. That is no way to interpret the line. And by "interpret" I don't mean "insert preferred meaning". I mean "listen to what the character is saying, in grammatic as well as factual context".

Any other interpretation is just the reader creating something on their own in order to reconcile the script with what makes sense to them.

I must argue that it's equally likely that it's you doing the creating - inventing an error that isn't there, and then inventing grammar that also isn't there to prove that the error exists.

There isn't a line in that scene where Mendez would be saying "Pike is about your age". There is an instance where Mendez says "about your age", but it clearly does not refer to Pike as he is now. Please read through this:

Mendez (casually): "You ever met Chris Pike?"
Kirk: "When he was promoted to Fleet Captain."
Mendez (nodding): "About your age. Big, handsome man, vital, active."

It is at least equally likely here that Mendez is referring to the timeframe of "when he was promoted" as it is that he is referring to the current time. And story logic is strongly on the side of the former interpretation. The instinct of the writer would be to write the former type of phrase, and he wouldn't necessarily notice he left it ambiguous, nor anticipate that anybody would mistake his meaning.

Note that Mendez in that scene is speaking in deliberately partial sentences, as if the subject were painful to him. The writer is probably leaving the verbs and pronouns off his fragments just for this effect.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[RAMA]

This is Pike!

[image removed]

 

[nil_jones]

This is Pike!

^^ okay...just my two cents, but:

1st cent) That looks like a blurry kirk in the background!

2nd cent) Can someone get this photo off the boards (until Monday, at least)?!??!!??!?!??!

 

[M'Sharak]

This is Pike!

^^ okay...just my two cents, but:

1st cent) That looks like a blurry kirk in the background!

2nd cent) Can someone get this photo off the boards (until Monday, at least)?!??!!??!?!??!

It's gone now.

 

[Rat Boy]

The problem with saying Pike is Kirk's age at the time of "The Menagerie" is that during the events of the "The Cage," Pike would have been in his early twenties. Seems a little young, doesn't it?

 

[Sector 7]

I still don't mind if they play loose with ages to tell a good story. I don't want to argue canon vs. good movie. It is just what I think. If changing their ages slightly means getting a better origin story which builds the fan base, then I am all for it.

 

[LutherSloan]

I have a feeling that Pike is either going to die in this movie, or be injured enough (such as he was in TOS) that he has to hand over command to Kirk. Considering how inexperienced Kirk is going to be in the film (from what has been mentioned so far), an emergency has to be the only reason he gets command of Enterprise. Especially since Spock SHOULD outrank him.

 

[nil_jones]

I have a feeling that Pike is either going to die in this movie, or be injured enough (such as he was in TOS) that he has to hand over command to Kirk.

If there's "reboot" in the air, who's to say Abrams doesn't retcon the reason for the Pike's condition in The Menagerie?

 

[Timo]

Really, what "reboot" is there in the air at the moment? That Kirk meets Romulans before "Balance of Terror" has been confirmed, but apart from that, we haven't yet learned of any contradictions, now have we? All we have gotten is innovative or even unlikely bits of Kirk's story that still fit what we knew before.

The Pike story could still play out without contradicting anything said in TOS. The need to see a Pike/Kirk transition is probably burning in this movie, but the need to see Pike turned into the beep-beep automaton is not. Really, Pike could be burned to cinder here and confined to a futuristic wheelchair, but that chair sure as hell wouldn't look like the "The Menagerie" one, for obvious reasons. So we could always say that Pike recovered, but then met with an accident again, as described in the TOS episode...

Of course, if this movie does represent a whole new timeline, then it would be pretty sadistic to have Pike still end up in that chair despite it being a whole different universe.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Calhoun24]

This seems very weird to me. What concerns me is that The Cage takes place years before Kirk takes over. But if the Enterprise is being built in the trailer with Kirk looking up, how can the Pike years take place in this new movie?

I know Abrams states that this is a reintroduction and not a reboot, but some things can't be ignored if he wants to stay true to the established timeline.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

This seems very weird to me. What concerns me is that The Cage takes place years before Kirk takes over. But if the Enterprise is being built in the trailer with Kirk looking up, how can the Pike years take place in this new movie?

I know Abrams states that this is a reintroduction and not a reboot, but some things can't be ignored if he wants to stay true to the established timeline.

How old is Kirk supposed to be when he's looking up at the Enterprise? About 16 or 17, maybe?

Now let's see...'The Menagerie' places Pike's time as 13 years ago. Which is about the mid 2250's. Kirk was born in 2233, so assuming he's 16 years old (err on the side of caution), that would put the scene in 2249. Assuming the rest of the ship was finished in that year or the next, it could have been launched in 2250, in time for 'Menagerie' to take place (we have no idea how old the ship is at that point).

 

[Sector 7]

I do not care if they stay true to established timelines or canon. I just want a good, new movie.

 

[dillon3001]

I have the TOS remastered season 1 set, and in one of the commentaries on it I believe they talked for a few minutes about how they almost missed the airdate for "The Menagerie". I'll have to watch it again, i dont remember much about it

 

[Peter the Younger]

Really, what "reboot" is there in the air at the moment? That Kirk meets Romulans before "Balance of Terror" has been confirmed, but apart from that, we haven't yet learned of any contradictions, now have we? All we have gotten is innovative or even unlikely bits of Kirk's story that still fit what we knew before.

The Romulan thing can be circumvented with the following: "This information is classified, Mr. Kirk. This Nero was an 'unknown alien.' Is that clear?"

The Pike story could still play out without contradicting anything said in TOS. The need to see a Pike/Kirk transition is probably burning in this movie, but the need to see Pike turned into the beep-beep automaton is not. Really, Pike could be burned to cinder here and confined to a futuristic wheelchair, but that chair sure as hell wouldn't look like the "The Menagerie" one, for obvious reasons.

Timo Saloniemi

The beeping chair is the best justification for rebooting (the tech, at least) that I can think of.

Seriously, if we want the general public to laugh at Trek fans, start talking about the movie in mixed company and insist that the beeping chair is "canon!"

 

[Calhoun24]

This seems very weird to me. What concerns me is that The Cage takes place years before Kirk takes over. But if the Enterprise is being built in the trailer with Kirk looking up, how can the Pike years take place in this new movie?

I know Abrams states that this is a reintroduction and not a reboot, but some things can't be ignored if he wants to stay true to the established timeline.

How old is Kirk supposed to be when he's looking up at the Enterprise? About 16 or 17, maybe?

Now let's see...'The Menagerie' places Pike's time as 13 years ago. Which is about the mid 2250's. Kirk was born in 2233, so assuming he's 16 years old (err on the side of caution), that would put the scene in 2249. Assuming the rest of the ship was finished in that year or the next, it could have been launched in 2250, in time for 'Menagerie' to take place (we have no idea how old the ship is at that point).

OK, that makes sense. Hopefully, they will hold true to this, because if not, there will be issues!

 

[Mr_Splotch]

I mentioned in another thread that Robert April (seen below in green) was the first commander of the Enterprise (Pike was the second), but was told that the animated series isn't canon. The animated series had the same actors (as voice actors) and some of the same writers.

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