Picard's comments about Earth's Past - "Encounter at Farpoint"

[Sci]

I think the thing to remember about the Prime Directive is that it's not an ideology itself. Rather, the Prime Directive is an alternate term for Federation Starfleet General Order #1.

But in Pen Pals, they were applying metaphysical concepts to the Prime Directive, like fate and cosmic plan.

They were being less legalistic about it and more philosophical and almost religious.

As I said, sometimes they use the term "Prime Directive" as shorthand to refer to the Federation's ideology and policy of non-interference in foreign cultures. But they are speaking inaccurately when they do so.

The talk about the Prime Directive is interesting since Picard basically interfered with the Edo people's rituals of swift 'justice' in said episode of the same name (i.e. 'Justice'). Many people - like myself - who were annoyed with Wesley wanted to know why the Edo weren't given the right to discipline the kid as they saw fit - death for tripping over flowers.

IIRC, a Starfleet captain may break the Prime Directive to save the lives of his crew and passengers. Despite what the jackass Roman consul said in "Bread and Circuses," a captain isn't expected to give up the lives of his crew to uphold the PD.

Well, canonically they are. But realistically, there shouldn't be too many cases where there would ever be any need to sacrifice a crewmember or starship in preservation of foreign non-interference.

For instance, extracting Wesley from the Edo justice system is clearly not "interference" in the Edo's internal affairs -- the fact that they wished to execute a Federation citizen made it a legitimate question of international relations, not a mere internal affair. Now, if Picard had then ordered Starfleet Security teams from the Enterprise to beam down to every Edo courtroom and police station and seize control of the entire Edo law enforcement apparatus, that would have been interference. But removing a Federation citizen from Edo territory, even against the Edo's will, is realistically not actually interfering in the function of their society. The Edo will continue to execute flower-stompers long after the Federation leaves their world.

 

[BillJ]

For instance, extracting Wesley from the Edo justice system is clearly not "interference" in the Edo's internal affairs -- the fact that they wished to execute a Federation citizen made it a legitimate question of international relations, not a mere internal affair. Now, if Picard had then ordered Starfleet Security teams from the Enterprise to beam down to every Edo courtroom and police station and seize control of the entire Edo law enforcement apparatus, that would have been interference. But removing a Federation citizen from Edo territory, even against the Edo's will, is realistically not actually interfering in the function of their society. The Edo will continue to execute flower-stompers long after the Federation leaves their world.

But extracting Wesley Crusher could have unforeseen complications. It could lead to some Edo defying the laws and the death penalty. Leading their world down a troubling path.

I also have a problem with Starfleet officers not being held to planetary laws (no matter how silly they may seem on the surface). No one is forcing Starfleet personnel to come down to a planet.

 

[Sci]

For instance, extracting Wesley from the Edo justice system is clearly not "interference" in the Edo's internal affairs -- the fact that they wished to execute a Federation citizen made it a legitimate question of international relations, not a mere internal affair. Now, if Picard had then ordered Starfleet Security teams from the Enterprise to beam down to every Edo courtroom and police station and seize control of the entire Edo law enforcement apparatus, that would have been interference. But removing a Federation citizen from Edo territory, even against the Edo's will, is realistically not actually interfering in the function of their society. The Edo will continue to execute flower-stompers long after the Federation leaves their world.

But extracting Wesley Crusher could have unforeseen complications. It could lead to some Edo defying the laws and the death penalty. Leading their world down a troubling path.

But that's their choice to make; that's not interference in their internal affairs, because it doesn't involve the Federation taking sides in their internal conflict. Sure, one side in that conflict may be inspired by the fact that the UFP extracted Wesley, but non-interference is not non-influence. Cultures do not exist in a vacuum, and cultural syncretism, while it can have negative consequences, is not itself a negative thing. The Federation came and then it left, and the Edo continued to rule themselves; it is not responsible for the fact that an Edo faction decided their ideas were better than their government's, and it should not feel guilty for this.

The Edo are a mature society full of adults. They can make decisions for themselves. They're not children.

Hell, far as I'm concerned, if there's an internal Edo conflict over abolishing the death penalty, that's a good thing. The Edo's law enforcement system is oppressive and deserves to be abolished. The Federation has no right to impose that view on the Edo, but if the Edo come to that view themselves, that's a good thing.

I also have a problem with Starfleet officers not being held to planetary laws (no matter how silly they may seem on the surface). No one is forcing Starfleet personnel to come down to a planet.

Except Wesley was not an officer. He was a legal minor, present by consent of his parent on a planet whose government did not apprise the Federation of how its legal system worked.

Yes, Starfleet officers should not be present on foreign soil if the UFP is not willing to abide by local laws. That's why the Federation withdrew all of its personnel and citizens from Edo territory upon extracting Wesley. They knew they were not willing to abide by Edo law, so they removed themselves from Edo territory and left the Edo to continue running their world as they saw fit.

 

[BillJ]

Except Wesley was not an officer. He was a legal minor, present by consent of his parent on a planet whose government did not apprise the Federation of how its legal system worked.

If I go to Tijuana, it isn't up to the government there to apprise me on how the laws work. It's up to me to investigate before putting myself in the situation. The entire situation falls on Picard, Riker and Yar for not thoroughly investigating planetary laws and for bringing a minor down to the surface. There was a ton of absolute incompetence involved and none of it is the Edo's fault. Beyond being gracious hosts and expecting their laws to be followed.

We all applaud Picard for saving Crushers life but we shouldn't act like he didn't trample on the Edo's sovereignty and the Prime Directive in the process.

 

[DWF]

For instance, extracting Wesley from the Edo justice system is clearly not "interference" in the Edo's internal affairs -- the fact that they wished to execute a Federation citizen made it a legitimate question of international relations, not a mere internal affair. Now, if Picard had then ordered Starfleet Security teams from the Enterprise to beam down to every Edo courtroom and police station and seize control of the entire Edo law enforcement apparatus, that would have been interference. But removing a Federation citizen from Edo territory, even against the Edo's will, is realistically not actually interfering in the function of their society. The Edo will continue to execute flower-stompers long after the Federation leaves their world.

But extracting Wesley Crusher could have unforeseen complications. It could lead to some Edo defying the laws and the death penalty. Leading their world down a troubling path.

But that's their choice to make; that's not interference in their internal affairs, because it doesn't involve the Federation taking sides in their internal conflict. Sure, one side in that conflict may be inspired by the fact that the UFP extracted Wesley, but non-interference is not non-influence. Cultures do not exist in a vacuum, and cultural syncretism, while it can have negative consequences, is not itself a negative thing. The Federation came and then it left, and the Edo continued to rule themselves; it is not responsible for the fact that an Edo faction decided their ideas were better than their government's, and it should not feel guilty for this.

The Edo are a mature society full of adults. They can make decisions for themselves. They're not children.

They certainly act like children and they're completely governed by their "God". If anything they like the people in The Apple. And in any event the Edo "God" agreed with Riker as Picard pointed out.

 

[Sci]

Except Wesley was not an officer. He was a legal minor, present by consent of his parent on a planet whose government did not apprise the Federation of how its legal system worked.

If I go to Tijuana, it isn't up to the government there to apprise me on how the laws work.

Except that's not an applicable comparison, because the United States and Mexico have always been in contact with each-other throughout their histories.

By contrast, it is only common sense that if two societies discover one-another for the first time, they ought to disclose how their respective legal systems work before they start sending their citizens into the other's territory. Shame on the Federation for not thoroughly checking how the Edo legal system worked before allowing their children onto Edo territory -- but shame on the Edo for not telling the Federation that the penalty for all crime is death.

We all applaud Picard for saving Crushers life but we shouldn't act like he didn't trample on the Edo's sovereignty and the Prime Directive in the process.

"Trample on their sovereignty" is a very emotionally loaded term without a lot of definition. Is any violation of Edo law a violation of their sovereignty? Is interfering with their ability to impose their law enforcement system on a Federation citizen who was not made aware of their legal penalties a violation of their sovereignty? Or is it a mere violation of Edo law?

I'm inclined to say that violating Edo sovereignty means in some way infringing upon the Edo's ability to govern themselves.

By that definition, Picard did not trample on the Edo's sovereignty. He violated their laws, yes -- but not once did he interfere with their ability to govern themselves. He interfered with their ability to impose their laws on a Federation citizen, yes -- and then he made up for it by ensuring that no other Federation citizens would ever violate Edo laws in the future or in any way impose their will on the Edo again.

Now, if we expand the definition of "trample on sovereignty" to include this, then he might have: "To trample on another nation's sovereignty is to interfere with their ability to govern themselves or with their ability to conduct foreign relations with other sovereign states as equals."

Did Picard's removal of a Federation citizen from Edo custody constitute an interference in the Edo government's ability to conduct foreign relations with other sovereign states as equals? Maybe. In that definition, Picard may well have committed a violation of Edo sovereignty. Even there, however, I would consider it a very minor violation; he certainly did not inhibit the ability of the Edo government or law enforcement apparatus to function in any other circumstances, nor did he require a change in Edo policy. Hell, he didn't even pull a "James T. Kirk" and destroy their alien worship-figure. He just removed his people from the scene and left the Edo to run their planet as they saw fit.

But extracting Wesley Crusher could have unforeseen complications. It could lead to some Edo defying the laws and the death penalty. Leading their world down a troubling path.

But that's their choice to make; that's not interference in their internal affairs, because it doesn't involve the Federation taking sides in their internal conflict. Sure, one side in that conflict may be inspired by the fact that the UFP extracted Wesley, but non-interference is not non-influence. Cultures do not exist in a vacuum, and cultural syncretism, while it can have negative consequences, is not itself a negative thing. The Federation came and then it left, and the Edo continued to rule themselves; it is not responsible for the fact that an Edo faction decided their ideas were better than their government's, and it should not feel guilty for this.

The Edo are a mature society full of adults. They can make decisions for themselves. They're not children.

They certainly act like children

That's a prime example of the kind of cultural chauvinism and prejudice that underlies much of early TNG. Like it or not, the Edo are not children who need to be protected from new ideas, lest they "contaminate" some sort of "cultural purity." They are adults, capable of assimilating new ideas and deciding what they want to do with them. It is not the Federation's place to decide that any disagreements among the Edo are a bad thing.

 

[DWF]

And yet the Edo "God" does protect and look over them, preventing them from advancing much like Vaal did.

 

[Mytran]

Like it or not, the Edo are not children who need to be protected from new ideas, lest they "contaminate" some sort of "cultural purity." They are adults, capable of assimilating new ideas and deciding what they want to do with them.

Indeed, they were quite prepared to let Wesley be removed by the Enterprise crew and record him as a criminal who had escaped their justice system. No-one would have been happy about it, but neither did anyone think it would destabilise their entire society.

 

[Robert Comsol]

And yet the Edo "God" does protect and look over them, preventing them from advancing much like Vaal did.

The way I see it Vaal had exploited and enslaved the natives to feed him, deliberately preventing their advancing.

With the Edo "God" things were apparently different:

PICARD: You're saying they. It is a vessel of some sort.
DATA: Definitely not a single entity if that's what you mean, sir, although they know the Edo worship them as a god thing.
PICARD: They know?
DATA: They recognise that this is quite expected and harmless at the present Edo stage of evolution.

Except Wesley was not an officer. He was a legal minor, present by consent of his parent on a planet whose government did not apprise the Federation of how its legal system worked.

I think that's a very important point, you made there. Of course, theoretically, Picard and his staff should have familiarized themselves with the laws and customs of the Edo.

But I believe, based on their past experience with dozens or hundreds of other worlds, it hadn't remotely crossed their minds that there could be a death sentence for accidentally falling into some flowers. Probably something unheard of in the rest of the known galaxy and the Edos didn't mind anybody stepping on grass (this wasn't even England, right?)

Bob

 

[JJohnson]

Too, Picard would become 'savage' in the film First Contact, wanting to kill the Borg rather than his usual reasoning before gunfire. And, he would fire on a crewman who would call to him for help, when - years before - the Enterprise-D crew saved Picard.

Grammar note: "too" CANNOT ever be used at the beginning of a sentence. EVER. You should use "also" in its place. Even better grammar would be not to put either at the beginning, and say something like:

"Picard would also..."

Sorry to nitpick but for some reason, people on this board have picked up this habit that's not standard English on any continent.

 

[T'Girl]

standard English .

English is a living, breathing language, ever changing, altering, growing. Sometimes these changes are rapid and take certain people by surprise.

Especially if no one bothered to ask those people first.

 

[KaineMorrison]

In TNG particularly seasons 1 and 2 there are a number of super Utopian statements and ideals in the episodes.

24th century "enlightened" folks don't eat meat, except when they do.

Starfleet is an exploration organization and its officers don't like to participate in war games for training.

But there, the organization that ordered Picard to engage in the war games in the first place was Starfleet itself. Starfleet retains the services of a war game expert. So how common are the beliefs spoken by Picard and Riker among their fellow officers within Starfleet?

but when you watch certain episodes, they do lay it on really thick.

I've compare this in the past to people reciting indoctrinated political slogans.

If you compare Picard's statements on money in FC, to Jake Sisko's statement's on the same subject on DS9, they're word for word.

I watched Encounter at Farpoint last night.
Beverly says that she will tak the whole Bolt of Cloth but to charge it to her.
How is this possible if the Federation doesn't use money?

 

[Grendelsbayne]

In TNG particularly seasons 1 and 2 there are a number of super Utopian statements and ideals in the episodes.

24th century "enlightened" folks don't eat meat, except when they do.

But there, the organization that ordered Picard to engage in the war games in the first place was Starfleet itself. Starfleet retains the services of a war game expert. So how common are the beliefs spoken by Picard and Riker among their fellow officers within Starfleet?

but when you watch certain episodes, they do lay it on really thick.

I've compare this in the past to people reciting indoctrinated political slogans.

If you compare Picard's statements on money in FC, to Jake Sisko's statement's on the same subject on DS9, they're word for word.

I watched Encounter at Farpoint last night.
Beverly says that she will tak the whole Bolt of Cloth but to charge it to her.
How is this possible if the Federation doesn't use money?

If the Federation is in the habit of reimbursing foreign merchants for the 'purchases' of starfleet officers (probably with raw materials, but there are other possibilities, even up to starfleet itself keeping a stockpile of actual currency to ease interstellar contacts), then this would be a perfectly reasonable thing to say and would not necessarily negate the idea that federation citizens don't use money when dealing with each other.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ I'm sticking with the (admittedly a bit of hand-waving) that "money," in this sense, refers to physical currency like coins and bills. The Federation has credits - we've all seen it - but it's all electronic. Nothing actually changes hands.

So there.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Is this going to turn into another "no money" thread?

 

[T'Girl]

^ It doesn't have too, they employ electronic monetary data transfers as a everyday medium of exchange, they just don't use the term money.

Just another contradiction in the 24th century, for example; Picard; "People are no longer obsessed with the accumulation of things. We've eliminated ... the need for possessions."

Yet at the end of Generations Picard and Riker tear apart the wreckage of Picard office to find a favored book. When Picard later says "money doesn't exist ..." he was stating a socially acceptable little white lie.

 

[BillJ]

^ It doesn't have too, they employ electronic monetary data transfers as a everyday medium of exchange, they just don't use the term money.

Just another contradiction in the 24th century, for example; Picard; "People are no longer obsessed with the accumulation of things. We've eliminated ... the need for possessions."

Yet at the end of Generations Picard and Riker tear apart the wreckage of Picard office to find a favored book. When Picard later says "money doesn't exist ..." he was stating a socially acceptable little white lie.

I'll file it with "Starfleet isn't the military".

 

[KaineMorrison]

^ It doesn't have too, they employ electronic monetary data transfers as a everyday medium of exchange, they just don't use the term money.

Just another contradiction in the 24th century, for example; Picard; "People are no longer obsessed with the accumulation of things. We've eliminated ... the need for possessions."

Yet at the end of Generations Picard and Riker tear apart the wreckage of Picard office to find a favored book. When Picard later says "money doesn't exist ..." he was stating a socially acceptable little white lie.

Wasn't that a Family Photo Album though? Though there is the matter of Riker's Sax...

 

[T'Girl]

I thought it as that big book of Shakespearean plays he kept open and under glass on the table next to his ready room door.

 

[Anwar]

There's a difference between having a few choice possessions and being obsessed with having lots of things.

Anywho, Picard's attitude may be a bit snobbish but it is realistic. I mean, if a guy today ran into a French Aristocrat do you really think he'd be totally okay with them? He'd probably think "Whoa, those frogs sure dressed weird and acted weird. Glad we're not like that."

Modern people will always see themselves as superior to their predecessors. Trek was fairly realistic in having the 24th Century people not be worshipful of 20th Century people.