Picard series confirmed post-Romulus

[Gonzo]

And it's a great starting point for a story.

Indeed, some would just prefer that the whole Kelvinverse would disappear completely, the new Picard show means that it's now canon and cast in stone, as you know I am fine with that.

I enjoyed the Kelvinverse films and would be happy to see more personally, looking forward to seeing Transwarp and Quantum Slipstream drives in normal day to day use, shame we won't be seeing the Enterprise F.

I am hoping Martok is still alive as he is dead in STO in 2399 and some of the books, I do expect to see Worf at the very least, lots of possibilities for guest stars.

The question is what is Picard doing now, is he an Admiral, Ambassador to Vulcan like in some of the books, Commander in Chief Starfleet or something else entirely.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

Between Nemesis and the Supernova there is about a 12-year gap. Previously there was always a possibility that the Supernova didn't take place in the same universe as TNG/DS9/VOY, etc, even in in the credit it did say "Prime Spock". There was always a possibility the the Supernova Prime universe spun off from TNG Prime universe at some point during the 12-year gap. There was no hard link between the two. Now, Kurtzman is saying Picard (same picard from TNG Prime) and the Supernova ARE in fact the same universe. That makes me very sad...

I think this is wishful thinking. There was never any reason given to doubt the Hobus event was in the Prime universe. In fact, there was much evidence to the contrary. First, you have to believe that Prime Spock isn't really Prime Spock, but some other Spock from some other timeline we don't really care about. Since there was nothing in the script to suggest this, it's probably not the case. Also, the year from which Spock travels -- 2387 -- puts it purposefully right after Berman Trek, and establishes that Spock is an Ambassador helping the Romulans. Again, this directly establishes the Prime Universe as the origin, as that's where we last left Spock.

Although they're not officially canon, the Countdown comics directly implicate the TNG crew as well. Since they were sanctioned by the production staff, however, this again tells you that Prime is supposed to be the Trek universe we all know and love.

 

[Damian]

I think this is wishful thinking. There was never any reason given to doubt the Hobus event was in the Prime universe. In fact, there was much evidence to the contrary. First, you have to believe that Prime Spock isn't really Prime Spock, but some other Spock from some other timeline we don't really care about. Since there was nothing in the script to suggest this, it's probably not the case. Also, the year from which Spock travels -- 2387 -- puts it purposefully right after Berman Trek, and establishes that Spock is an Ambassador helping the Romulans. Again, this directly establishes the Prime Universe as the origin, as that's where we last left Spock.

Yeah, the writers made it clear it is THE Ambassador Spock we last saw in Unification. Bob Orci has said he wrote the movie purposely with Spock-prime as the lynchpin to make the Abramsverse an alternate universe. He actually said he didn't even write anything alternate if Leonard Nimoy declined. He was always necessary to the movie.

Short of Leonard Nimoy turning to the camera and saying straight up--"I come from the prime timeline and you last saw me in "Unification"" I'm not sure how much more evidence you could get. To be honest, I'm surprised some people are surprise it will feature in the nu-TNG show. To me there was no question it happened in the same universe as the Enterprise-to-Nemesis universe.

The only way to ignore that event is to say the nu-TNG show takes place in a separate universe where Romulus is ok, and we know that ain't gonna happen.

 

[Kirk Prime]

No, because the Kelvin movies are in an alternate universe.
Spock even says that in the movie.

I don't believe he does.

The Supernova and Destruction of Romulus happened. But then Prime Spock left our universe, and entered into the past of a parallel universe, where he meets a different version of Kirk, Spock, etc. So like the Mirror Universe is parallel but different, so is the "JJverse"

While that may be the best answer, it has never actually been made official on screen, and if they are smart, they will do that.

Yeah, I mean we have the mirror universe just for one. And Bob Orci has stated 2 episodes of TNG in particular helped inspire them to write the alternate universe, "Yesterday's Enterprise" and esp. "Parallels". I remember them having a discussion about Parallels and all the various universes depicted in that episode alone. So it's hardly unprecedented in Star Trek. Perhaps the only thing unusual was that a trilogy of movies took place in that alternate universe. But that was all.

You're right, but it has never been established that the prime timeline exists and that Spock and Nero went to another universe. Orci can say what he wants, but Bob Orci is not a character within the Star Trek universe and when they had their chance to make it clear, they didn't. They can fix this with Picard.

Short of Leonard Nimoy turning to the camera and saying straight up--"I come from the prime timeline and you last saw me in "Unification"" I'm not sure how much more evidence you could get. To be honest, I'm surprised some people are surprise it will feature in the nu-TNG show. To me there was no question it happened in the same universe as the Enterprise-to-Nemesis universe.

That Nimoy was Spock Prime was never the problem. But for 40 plus years, it was well established that history can be changed. Not alternate universe or timelines--the timeline you come from. That goes from the first time travel episode on TOS to the last one on Voyager. That's what makes time travel dangerous.

It's true that Star Trek also establishes parallel universes. However, all we saw in ST09 was time travel, not interuniversal travel. In the absence of THAT, and they chose their words carefully to NOT establish that, the only presumption is that the prime universe is overwritten by the Kelvin timeline. Even the existence of the Picard show doesn't change that, as what we could be watching could be history as it played out before Nero changed things. Think City on the Edge. McCoy changed history and overwrote the timeline. Only those by the Guardian remained. But for that period, until Kirk and Spock made sure Edith died, there was a whole new timeline, with past/present/future. That timeline disappeared when the original timeline was restored.

Could Spock have traveled to another universe as well as time traveled? Sure, but there is nothing in canon that says he did. That can be fixed with one line.

 

[Owain Taggart]

My understanding from ST09 was that the destruction of Romulus was in the prime timeline. However, Nero traveling into the past and altering things created the Kelvin Timeline.

Yes, same here, and the it's also the entire basis for Trek 09 and wouldn't exist without it.

1. Nero and the Romulan people notice the supernova and the eminent danger it poses to Romulus. Spock seeing this volunteers to try to stop it from happening and fails. This is the catalyst spearing Nero for revenge.
2. Nero travels into the past, although by doing so inadvertently ends up in an alternate timeline (the reboot).
3. Spock goes in after him.
4. Nero exacts revenge on the Vulcan people by destroying NuTimeline's Vulcan.
5. Meanwhile those in the Post-Nem Prime are dealing with the aftermath of what could be the universe's biggest event, the destruction of Romulus, creating a sudden shift in power and vacuum and what not.


I'm not so sure what's so hard to understand about this. Ignoring it would be akin to trying to ignore that someone is pregnant in a sitcom by trying to hide the pregnance at every turn, ie Frasier. There'd always be the question about why they're acting so nonchalantly about the destruction of a major power's planet, one that has been around since TOS and not addressing it would be awkward. Using this as a starting point is natural for moving forward. Yes, it's an event from the Kelvin movies, but it's an event that completely affects the Prime and in a major way.

 

[The Overlord]

Yep, and that's just as possible. It's fun to speculate. I do it myself. On the litverse thread and how the show will impact the ongoing relaunches there's a lot of speculation as well. I honestly don't know what the impact will be and like everyone else, I'm parsing every word they've said about the show looking for clues, and am probably no where near where they are headed.

It does sound like Picard will be in another phase of his life. In the Countdown comics I remember reading he was an ambassador. It's possible they decide to run with that thread which would support your comment. Even in the novels, at one point he contemplated life after Starfleet, and perhaps as a nod to the comic story mentioned diplomacy. Now, they haven't run with that as of yet, but it's out there for the future.

Fair enough and talking about my preferences, when I talk about the hardliner Romulans being villains, I do not mean in the usual Star Trek way, I think they should be one problem the Romulan refugees face, refugees in real life often have to flee dictatorships that want to destroy them and can be targeted by terrorist groups or criminal groups. The hardliners want to rebuild the Empire and want all Romulans under their banner. The hardliners would be creating a society that would be pretty harsh, even more militaristic then the old Empire and lacking the creature comforts the Empire had and all the resources would be going towards the admirals who control this faction. Because of that, the hardliners see Romulans living outside their control as a threat and believe Romulans who settle on Vulcan are threats to Romulan purity. The reason why these refugees are a threat is that if more Romulans thrive on Vulcan or within the Federation, more Romulans may leave the hardliners to live in peace in the Federation.

The hardliners know they can't take on the Federation in a fight, they want to consolidate their power rather than taking on the Federation directly, but they can try to cow any Romulan into obedience by attempting to kill any Romulan who attempts to escape their control. So the Federation would have to protect Romulans from other Romulans. Not to mention these refugee conveys would have to deal all sort of problems, meteor showers, anomalies, space pirates and then resettling on planets like Vulcan which present a host of other issues; getting them proper food and shelter, xenophobic Vulcans may not want them there, etc. There would a host of challenges in this crisis, hardline Romulans are just one of many.

 

[eschaton]

IIRC Spock follows pretty closely behind Nero in going to the past, but it's not instantaneous. This is key, because if Nero going back in time and altering the past was enough to destroy the PU "present" then PU Spock would have immediately ceased to exist. Yet he did not.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

It's true that Star Trek also establishes parallel universes. However, all we saw in ST09 was time travel, not interuniversal travel.
...
Could Spock have traveled to another universe as well as time traveled? Sure, but there is nothing in canon that says he did. That can be fixed with one line.

The "method" of time travel is important here, and actually has some support from real physics (suspend the notion that time travel is probably impossible...). The internal structure of what's called a Reissner-Nordstrom black hole (a black hole with electric charge) allows one to avoid the singularity and traverse into a different universe and also potentially a different time. That's how I justify the no-reset of the timeline, unlike what has been established previously in Trekdom.

For those who are interested, you can read about them here:

http://jila.colorado.edu/~ajsh/insidebh/rn.html

and the Penrose diagram showing the path here:

http://jila.colorado.edu/~ajsh/insidebh/penrose.html#rn

 

[Damian]

Fair enough and talking about my preferences, when I talk about the hardliner Romulans being villains, I do not mean in the usual Star Trek way, I think they should be one problem the Romulan refugees face, refugees in real life often have to flee dictatorships that want to destroy them and can be targeted by terrorist groups or criminal groups. The hardliners want to rebuild the Empire and want all Romulans under their banner. The hardliners would be creating a society that would be pretty harsh, even more militaristic then the old Empire and lacking the creature comforts the Empire had and all the resources would be going towards the admirals who control this faction. Because of that, the hardliners see Romulans living outside their control as a threat and believe Romulans who settle on Vulcan are threats to Romulan purity. The reason why these refugees are a threat is that if more Romulans thrive on Vulcan or within the Federation, more Romulans may leave the hardliners to live in peace in the Federation.

The hardliners know they can't take on the Federation in a fight, they want to consolidate their power rather than taking on the Federation directly, but they can try to cow any Romulan into obedience by attempting to kill any Romulan who attempts to escape their control. So the Federation would have to protect Romulans from other Romulans. Not to mention these refugee conveys would have to deal all sort of problems, meteor showers, anomalies, space pirates and then resettling on planets like Vulcan which present a host of other issues; getting them proper food and shelter, xenophobic Vulcans may not want them there, etc. There would a host of challenges in this crisis, hardline Romulans are just one of many.

Yeah, there's nothing wrong with that. I guess what my main point is that you have some people that seem to be upset that the destruction of Romulus is being featured at all, and Rahul seems upset that the Romulans are going to be the main villain again (sounds like he doesn't like Romulans--not sure what they ever did to him but I digress).

My main point is we don't know that. All we know from the showrunners is that this will be a Picard-centric show and that something happens to him when Romulus is destroyed that causes some change in his life.

The Romulans may be a significant element of the show, or they may not. But I wouldn't write off the show based on the little they've told us. We can't yet infer the Romulans themselves will play any role beyond the destruction of their world at that point. They may never appear again. So it was more a rebuttal to Rahul's contention that this is going to feature the Romulans as the main antagonists in the show.

 

[Damian]

The "method" of time travel is important here, and actually has some support from real physics (suspend the notion that time travel is probably impossible...). The internal structure of what's called a Reissner-Nordstrom black hole (a black hole with electric charge) allows one to avoid the singularity and traverse into a different universe and also potentially a different time. That's how I justify the no-reset of the timeline, unlike what has been established previously in Trekdom.

For those who are interested, you can read about them here:

http://jila.colorado.edu/~ajsh/insidebh/rn.html

and the Penrose diagram showing the path here:

http://jila.colorado.edu/~ajsh/insidebh/penrose.html#rn

Yeah, and Star Trek has played with the idea of alternate universes as well. Yes, usually in time travel stories in Star Trek they change the past and someone has to go back to fix it. But the idea of travelling to an alternate timeline is not unheard of in Star Trek. I think if I remember correctly the writers of Star Trek (2009) did use the black hole/singularity idea for that reason.

 

[The Overlord]

Yeah, there's nothing wrong with that. I guess what my main point is that you have some people that seem to be upset that the destruction of Romulus is being featured at all, and Rahul seems upset that the Romulans are going to be the main villain again (sounds like he doesn't like Romulans--not sure what they ever did to him but I digress).

My main point is we don't know that. All we know from the showrunners is that this will be a Picard-centric show and that something happens to him when Romulus is destroyed that causes some change in his life.

The Romulans may be a significant element of the show, or they may not. But I wouldn't write off the show based on the little they've told us. We can't yet infer the Romulans themselves will play any role beyond the destruction of their world at that point. They may never appear again. So it was more a rebuttal to Rahul's contention that this is going to feature the Romulans as the main antagonists in the show.

Fair enough, I just think ignoring the Romulan crisis would be a big missed opportunity, its a story full of potential, IMO. Also, I just want the Romulans to be fleshed out a bit, giving us Romulans we are fleshed out characters would be great, we have not seen much of that in the past.

 

[Owain Taggart]

And honestly I don't know why you'd want to. The consequences of something like that 12 years later is ripe for stories. Imagine if China were to suddenly disappear.

Agreed. To ignore it would be akin to just sticking to the status quo, and that would be honestly horrible. I was sad to see Romulus destroyed on screen, because I knew what it meant. It was actually gut-wrenching to watch, because it in a way meant the writers were not expecting the franchise to ever get back to the Prime.

But now that we are getting to back to the Prime, it provides many interesting storytelling opportunities, and it may be in retrospect one of the best things that happened to the Prime in terms of shaking things up and provides a great opportunity for some character exploration. Losing a planet that has been around so long is like losing a friend and provides some fuel for self-reflection, and I'm sure this would have heavily affected Picard.

 

[ITDUDE]

5. Meanwhile those in the Post-Nem Prime are dealing with the aftermath of what could be the universe's biggest event, the destruction of Romulus, creating a sudden shift in power and vacuum and what not

This is where people are getting confused or assuming something that has never been made clear. Yes, by traveling to the past new Kelvin Timeline is created. But until now it was never necessary to figure out if Prime timeline past the Supernova was still in existence or not. And does Prime continue to exist beyond "historical documents" as seen on TV? Blowing up Vulcan created a new chain of events (which we call Kelvin Timeline), but where does it say that there is still a parallel universe in existence where Vulcan still exists? By most common used logic in Star Trek, time travel that hasn't been "fixed" replaces actual history of Prime universe (think Sisko and Bell riots). So blowing up Vulcan would create prime timeline where Vulcan is destroyed and TOS (kelvin movies) are followed by Kelvin-TNG and etc...

With all these questions/issues arising, it would have been MUCH better to ignore the Supernova timeline split and continue Prime as it was (with Vulcan and Romulus still around). But that's just my opinion.

 

[fireproof78]

Yeah, and Star Trek has played with the idea of alternate universes as well. Yes, usually in time travel stories in Star Trek they change the past and someone has to go back to fix it. But the idea of travelling to an alternate timeline is not unheard of in Star Trek. I think if I remember correctly the writers of Star Trek (2009) did use the black hole/singularity idea for that reason.

Yup. Completely with precedent in the Trek universe.

With all these questions/issues arising, it would have been MUCH better to ignore the Supernova timeline split and continue Prime as it was (with Vulcan and Romulus still around). But that's just my opinion.

But, then you have episodes like "Parallels" or "Mirror, Mirror" which demonstrates that timelines are already splitting and can exist side by side with the Prime Universe.

I see no reason to ignore the supernova in ST 09 as not occurring in the Prime Universe.

 

[Damian]

With all these questions/issues arising, it would have been MUCH better to ignore the Supernova timeline split and continue Prime as it was (with Vulcan and Romulus still around). But that's just my opinion.

Well you'll get half your wish. Vulcan will still be around

 

[WarpFactorZ]

With all these questions/issues arising, it would have been MUCH better to ignore the Supernova timeline split and continue Prime as it was (with Vulcan and Romulus still around). But that's just my opinion.

But this definitely answers the questions that "many" are asking... The Prime timeline continues to exist, egro the Kelvin timeline is an alternate universe.

 

[Owain Taggart]

This is where people are getting confused or assuming something that has never been made clear.

Dunno, but it seems pretty clear to me the moment we see Romulus destroyed with the other events following, the producers of this show confirming it. I understand what you're saying in terms of the timeline possibly no longer being the same, but in terms of keeping things simple, the producers are likely going to go with a much simpler explanation. Afterall, people, including new fans coming off DIscovery who aren't all so familiar with the past Trek will have headaches trying to piece together the timeline issues. Much easier to just say, yes it's the same Prime and leave it at that and have all the storytelling opportunities to go along with it. It would be much harder to create momentum about Picard without the lead-up following the event.

 

[valkyrie013]

Cool! The premise I postulated on here has proven to be mostly true with Picard and the romulans! Sweet!

To me, the black hole in St09 was a bridge to another similar timeline, say the mirror universe, and further back in time and screwed up that universe. So basically, Kelvin timeline is its own universe, and the "Prime" one could possibly travel to it, or have a "Crisis on Infinate Timelines" comic book type thingy.. trying to remerge universes. Doubt they'd do it, as of current news the Kelvin verse is a bit .. dead. ( no movies, no books, practically nothing)
Now, with the Picard Extravaganza and massage parlor show, we have to deal with the Hobus supernova. What does that intail?
1. Romulas and Remus are dust, could explore the idea of .. how it happened, why it happened, did anybody make it happen?
2. The Romulans had an Empire, whats left? Did the supernovea hit any other systems? How much of the empire is left? How many actual romulan worlds were spared? ( as in actual conlony worlds, not worlds that are part of the empire, but are other species). Was there an evacuation of Romulas? did they have any warning or time? Did the Praetor jump ship? The Senate??
3. Refuges, This is an almost given for the series, given the current news events. Where are they going, Is Vulcan going to be a refuge? Are the Vulcans going to be Xenophobes and not take to kindly to them? Something like the Bomb people that tryied to kill Sarek in Disco(inferno)??
4. What is Picard life? Was he in command of the Enterprise E till the Hobus Lightshow? What happened after? Did he quite imediatly and become an ambassador? Is he married to Beverly had has a kid? which would be close to 18 in that time frame?? Is he estranged from the kid? ( I hope not, Kirk having a kid and not being it his life just irks me, deadbeat parents..)
5. Did the Lit Verse stuff happen? ( that for that other thread)
6. Is there any type of Romulan government? Is there still a praetor and senate on a colony world? What happened to the Romulan fleet? Is it still around? Tal Shiar??

Plenty of questions, ideas to explore! Hopefull for the series!
And DON"T INCLUDE THE BORG!! ...

 

[eschaton]

I thought this was definitively answered already, and it was - way back in 2008:

Anthony: OK so let’s call the timeline Nero left, as ‘the prime timeline’, so that means that the USS Kelvin, as designed and seen in the trailer, that is also in the prime timeline?

Bob: Yes

Anthony: So what happens with the destruction of the Kelvin is the creation of an alternative timeline, but what happens to the prime timeline after Nero leaves it? Does it continue or does it wink out of existence once he goes back and creates this new timeline.

Bob: It continues. According to the most successful, most tested scientific theory ever, quantum mechanics, it continues.

Anthony: So everyone in the prime timeline, like Picard and Riker, are still off doing there thing, it is just that Nero is gone.

Bob: Yes, and you will notice that whenever the movie comes out, that whatever DVDs you have purchased, will continue to exist.

Bob Orci said - 11 freaking years ago - that the Prime Timeline did not cease to exist. I dunno how anyone would think this was subject to debate.

 

[fireproof78]

Bob Orci said - 11 freaking years ago - that the Prime Timeline did not cease to exist. I dunno how anyone would think this was subject to debate.

I really don't understand the hand wringing. Alternate and parallel universes are old hat to Trek, dating to TOS. So, what's the issue?