Picard: Redemption Part II

[Dukhat]

However, Data getting command over him is hardly an indulgence, given his years of service, & tenure as a 2nd in command of the D, which we never hear being one of Hobson's qualifications.

Picard had no intention of offering Data a command until Data brought it up. And Picard abruptly cuts off Data's diatribe about it by stating that the Sutherland needed a captain, even though he didn't initially offer Data the position. So the intent was that Picard was going to give another one of his officers the captaincy of that ship. So while it seems that Hobson might not have been in the running, neither was Data until he made a stink about it. And since we don't know anything at all about Hobson other than he had the same rank as Data and seemed to be giving orders to other crewmembers, there doesn't seem to be any concrete reason why he couldn't have commanded the ship either.

 

[Mojochi]

Picard had no intention of offering Data a command until Data brought it up. And Picard abruptly cuts off Data's diatribe about it by stating that the Sutherland needed a captain, even though he didn't initially offer Data the position. So the intent was that Picard was going to give another one of his officers the captaincy of that ship. So while it seems that Hobson might not have been in the running, neither was Data until he made a stink about it. And since we don't know anything at all about Hobson other than he had the same rank as Data and seemed to be giving orders to other crewmembers, there doesn't seem to be any concrete reason why he couldn't have commanded the ship either.

I'm not saying Hobson definitively couldn't have commanded the ship. Actually, the way it looks to me is that he might have been the guy who would've gotten to do it, until Data got put there. All I'm saying is that there could easily have been qualifications Data possesses that would make him a more proper appointee to the post, beyond just rank, & time onboard the ship. There's no logical reason to suggest otherwise IMHO

Frankly, I believe you're misreading Picard's exchange with Data. Data's not making a stink, just an inquiry & declaration, & Picard's response of feeling he'd be needed on the D, as an explanation of why he hadn't considered Data, was almost certainly an earnest one.

That was the only reason he bypassed Data. Plus he might have figured Data had no specific aspiration for the post... until he declared it. (Which would be an easy thing to think about a guy who routinely doesn't exhibit aspirations)

Once he had declared it, it wasn't an abrupt interruption. It was an immediate recognition of the oversight on Picard's part, that needed no further discussion to rectify. That's how I read that exchange.

 

[Dukhat]

That’s fine. I chose to interpret the dialogue the way I think the writers intended the context to be: that Data was being discriminated against by Picard, who then indulged him by offering him the command. Because Data then continues to be discriminated against by Hobson. It’s almost like the writers were trying to beat the idea into the audience’s heads that Data is a person, and not specifically that he was capable of commanding a ship.

 

[Timo]

I utterly disagree. It's certainly possible Hobson "Could" have taken command. It's presumable he was originally slated to do so. However, Data getting command over him is hardly an indulgence, given his years of service, & tenure as a 2nd in command of the D, which we never hear being one of Hobson's qualifications

This just doesn't sound attractive as a premise, because it would suggest Picard overlooked key facts originally.

That is, either he thought the Sutherland was totally unavailable, which wasn't true at all (she was merely uncombatworthy, and heroics made a difference there, too) - or he falsely thought that Hobson could handle the job.

When he suddenly declares the Sutherland is lacking a CO, which of his errors is he oddly recognizing, and for what reason?

If OTOH the ship always was going to join the fray, but originally under the perfectly competent command of Hobson, Picard isn't having any senior moments, which IMHO is the preferable interpretation. And any suggestion that Hobson would be a lesser commander than Data detracts from that. Picard is juggling dozens of ships and their officers; he's bound to have all the vital stats on a spreadsheet, and basing his initial choice of Sutherland CO on that. Any change thus is on a whim, to a greater or lesser degree.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Farscape One]

I completely disagree that Picard was discriminating against Data for one simple reason.

He defended his rights as a person.

I think he simply didn't account for Data wanting to step into the command role because he never really mentioned that before. Picard reevaluated and gave him a ship that needed a captain.

I don't think there's anything more than that.

Hobson, though, I can see that there might have been underlying anger at being passed over by an android. In addition to his bigotry that was blatant even from his first words when he asked to be transferred, he questioned every order and was insubordinate. He finally gave Data respect when he calls him 'captain' after he discovered the Romulan ships.

 

[Mojochi]

^Exactly

I chose to interpret the dialogue the way I think the writers intended the context to be: that Data was being discriminated against by Picard

That's the takeaway? That Picard is discriminating against one of his crew? What show do y'all watch? He's probably the least discriminatory person Data has ever served with. That would be my last interpretation, given the relationship they have, where he's literally stood nearly alone fighting for the guy's rights. I don't think the writers were implying that at all

When he suddenly declares the Sutherland is lacking a CO, which of his errors is he oddly recognizing, and for what reason

He is newly accounting for data he'd previously not considered, that while unknown to him at that time, the officer he had slated to be his #1 was actually interested in commanding a ship, & had every qualification to be offered such an opportunity. His error was in thinking Data might not have that aspiration, which he didn't even bat an eyelash at recognizing the very moment Data brought it up

Point being, there's no reason to suspect Hobson couldn't have captained the ship. There's every reason to recognize that Data already has canonical experience at doing that very thing, and it might mean he is a more appropriate & qualified candidate to do so than Hobson. That's how Hobson could be a lesser choice.

When he says to Data that the Sutherland needs a captain, he might be simply saying the ship was otherwise going to head out without someone commanding it with that kind of experience.

It wasn't a huge error, or some kind of discrimination. It's just that Picard had failed to notice Data... & let's face it. Data doesn't do a lot to make his career desires known to people. By his very nature, he's barely got any noticeable desires at all. It would be easy for anyone to overlook him for career opportunities

 

[Dukhat]

Picard is a fictional character whose attributes are based solely on the whims of whoever is writing his lines. In this instance, the writers chose to make him act in a discriminatory way towards Data, and appeasing the latter only to put him in a situation where Data gets discriminated yet again. That’s my interpretation of the scene, and you’re welcome to disagree with it.

 

[Mojochi]

I'd just have a hard time interpreting a show's lead character, who is otherwise routinely the show's moral compass, in a way that would be so far out of line with the moral message of the show, that he'd share guilt with one of the main antagonists' bigotry, without it ever being fully explored, but take it as you will

It seems to me if Star Trek is going to have a lead character be morally ambiguous like that, they're more prone to spend the entire episode, unpacking it for the audience to wrestle with. Writer's whims have boundaries. Gene Roddenberry had established more than most for the leads, during that time on the show IIRC. Many folks consider them constricting to the point that the show got criticized for making them too perfect

 

[Dukhat]

They wrote the script in such a way that Picard wasn’t overtly discriminatory. It’s not like he thought Data wasn’t capable of commanding a ship. He just overlooked Data when handing out the assignments. But the idea that Data wasn’t capable of command gets mirrored later with Hobson. The writers could easily have just had Picard give Data command of the Sutherland without Data having to ask for it, and then have Hobson still act like a jerk toward Data, but they chose to have Picard be part of the problem too, albeit not as blatant as Hobson’s bigoted attitude. The end result being that it looked more like Picard was giving Data the command just to indulge him and shut him up, rather than because he thought Data was as capable as Riker and Geordi. No, it doesn’t fit Picard’s character, but again that’s how I interpreted the scene.

 

[Timo]

I rather think Picard simply woke up there, seeing that a path of no harm that he hadn't seriously considered would actually do some good. There just isn't any clear suggestion that Picard would have distrusted Data's abilities.

What is somewhat remarkable is that Data received no supervision whatsoever during his assignment. Picard could have been making worried calls all the time, but did not. This was a rather trailblazing event, having a machine lead men, but only those men saw it in those terms; Picard and the rest apparently did not.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Paul Weaver]

Picard didn't give Geordi command of a ship (or Crusher, which was a mistake if they really were short on experienced commanders).

Picard felt Riker needed an XO he could trust for a new ship, Picard gave Data a ship but no XO, it seems Picard shows more confidence in Data than in Riker!

Picard could have assigned Riker to the Sutherland and Data+Geordi to the Excalibur.

Was Data ever in charge of a ship before this event? I don't mean being left on watch, but were Riker and Picard ever off the ship at the same time? (Gambit was well after Redemption)

 

[Mojochi]

Was Data ever in charge of a ship before this event? I don't mean being left on watch, but were Riker and Picard ever off the ship at the same time? (Gambit was well after Redemption)

Data holds acting captain status, & is pretty much the sole functioning officer by the end of, Night Terrors, because the entire crew was incapacitated. He actually orders Picard off the bridge

The writers could easily have just had Picard give Data command of the Sutherland without Data having to ask for it, and then have Hobson still act like a jerk toward Data, but they chose to have Picard be part of the problem too

That's the thing though. An officer getting passed over because they aren't vocal is a very realistic scenario for any of Picard's officers. It need not necessarily be associated with being a part of the bigotry problem. If anything, it comes off to me as a testament to how easy it might be to overlook someone who doesn't assert their aspirations. Data asserting himself is also a major part of that story, like others (Ensigns of Command)

In other words, I don't see Picard having overlooked Data because of what he is, and android, but because of how he is, less forthright about his desires than other crew members Picard is accustomed to. It was because Data was a wallflower, not because he was somehow deemed as lesser than another officer due to being an android. Again though... we just seem to view it differently

The end result being that it looked more like Picard was giving Data the command just to indulge him and shut him up, rather than because he thought Data was as capable as Riker and Geordi.

That's an additional leap I don't follow. You really have to assume a gross level of bigotry on Picard's part, to think the only reason he'd then give Data the command was essentially affirmative action. I don't think that's why he did. He more likely thought in earnest "Oops. I figured Data would be helpful here as XO, but didn't realize he aspired to one of these commands"

 

[Dukhat]

^And that was my point. It wasn’t an ‘oops’ moment on Picard’s part, as far as the writers were concerned. They intentionally made Picard look like he was dismissing Data’s abilities, which was the entire impetus for Data to point that out. Picard could have easily made it clear to Data that he needed him on the Enterprise more if that was what Picard truly wanted, but instead he cut Data off mid-sentence and sent him to the Sutherland just to placate him.

At this point, it’s clear that you and I have different interpretations of this scene, and we’re not going to convince the other. So I’m fine with respecting your opinion about it as long as you respect mine, even if we don’t agree.

 

[Crusher Disciple]

OK, this thread made me rewatch on netflix

What a gorgeous shot. I assume it's remastered

View attachment 20364

Not my most favorite class of Warbird, but you've got to give it to the Romulans. Those babies look cool!