PIC S3 Ships & Tech

[Ithekro]

With those kinds of speeds a starship could cross a few sectors within 12 hours at maximum warp (the old TNG limit). It they've improved on that a ship could convincingly make it to the edge of Federation space in less than a month.

 

[Markonian]

Sorry, I still can’t find the source.

 

[Macintosh]

If your ship can cruise at Warp 9.99 for days on end, on my Warp Factor Scale 3.0 (My Scale = TNG Warp Scale with the hand drawn curve to infinity past Warp Factor 9 deleted. I just let the #'s run naturally according to the original TNG Warp Factor formula).

@ Warp 9.99 ~= Warp Factor 27 ~= 56,084 c

Warp 9.99 is 7,912c according to the Star Trek Encyclopedia and the behind-the-scenes Enterprise-D and Voyager technical documentation provided to the writing team.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Warp 9.99 is 7,912c according to the Star Trek Encyclopedia and the behind-the-scenes Enterprise-D and Voyager technical documentation provided to the writing team.

I know what it says.

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Warp_factor

But compared to what Tom Paris referenced Warp 9.9 as on screen in the ep "The 37's"
"about 4 billion miles (0.0007 light years) in 1 second" ~= 21,473c
And Tom Paris generally knows his piloting knowledge and stats.

Plus the curve to infinity past Warp 9 on the TNG Warp Factor scale is literally hand drawn.

So it's a bit Timey/Wimey/Wibbley/Wobbly.

I wouldn't put much stock on the Reference manual when they aren't willing to use their existing consistent formula past Warp 9.

I'd rather use on-screen Cannon at that point when they have a critical main character state the actual speed of Warp 9.9.

I then used Tom Paris stated speed and made proportional adjustments based on what the TNG Technical Manual states and what Tom Paris states.

IMO, on-screen Canon is Stronger & more valid than TNG Tech Manuals.

Especially when it comes to a main character talking about their profession (Tom Paris / Piloting).

 

[kirk55555]

I know what it says.

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Warp_factor

But compared to what Tom Paris referenced Warp 9.9 as on screen in the ep "The 37's"
"about 4 billion miles (0.0007 light years) in 1 second" ~= 21,473c
And Tom Paris generally knows his piloting knowledge and stats.

Plus the curve to infinity past Warp 9 on the TNG Warp Factor scale is literally hand drawn.

So it's a bit Timey/Wimey/Wibbley/Wobbly.

I wouldn't put much stock on the Reference manual when they aren't willing to use their existing consistent formula past Warp 9.

I'd rather use on-screen Cannon at that point when they have a critical main character state the actual speed of Warp 9.9.

I then used Tom Paris stated speed and made proportional adjustments based on what the TNG Technical Manual states and what Tom Paris states.

IMO, on-screen Canon is Stronger & more valid than TNG Tech Manuals.

Especially when it comes to a main character talking about their profession (Tom Paris / Piloting).

Tom Paris once reached "Infinite Speed", and in doing so evolved himself into a non-sentient giant salamander. To me, that makes his knowledge/opinion on warp travel somewhat suspect

There is also the fact that Voyager writers sucked with tech/science stuff in general and I'd trust the Tech manuals more then a throw away line from a Voyager episode written by Jerri Taylor and Brannon Braga of all people, but really the whole salamander thing really speaks for itself

 

[QuinnTV]

Didn't Terry Matalas post that Starfleet, as of 2401, is unable to recover from the loss of Utopia Planitia? Hence the Titan-recycling because they cannot make new parts.

Yes. I remember this thread on Twitter. The discussion was leaning toward, if I recall correctly, available shipbuilding materials after UP's loss. Instead of a 100% new space frame, there was recycling from older ships, hence the "refit" actually being a physical different ship.

As noted already in this thread, it was much like supply chain issues that we've all seen over the last few years.

 

[jackoverfull]

Speaking of this, it’s interesting to note that in the recent Sisko comic that infinite speed stuff has been retconned into a more generic “transwarp barrier”. Of course it’s not canon, but still interesting someone a knowledges the issue.

 

[Deks]

Tom Paris once reached "Infinite Speed", and in doing so evolved himself into a non-sentient giant salamander. To me, that makes his knowledge/opinion on warp travel somewhat suspect

How so?
"Threshold" episode occurred months after 'The 37's'.
It was the 37's episode in which Paris told Amelia Earhart that warp 9.9 = 4 billion miles per second (aka 21,473c)

Also, there was no way to predict what the effects of traveling at Warp 10 would have done to a Human - to sum it up, Paris was existing in every point in the universe at the same time.
He'd be exposed to a proverbial cosmic soup of anomalies, radiation, and type of phenomena that exist in the WHOLE UNIVERSE.
While UFP could probably predict various environmental conditions in many parts of space given their current level of knowledge and automation for R&D (computerised) and devise means of protection, the problem is, their knowledge of the Milky Way alone was not really 'complete' (at least it wasn't in the 24th century - perhaps by the mid/late 25th century it was).

In other words, there would have been no way for SF to create sufficient protection in the form of shielding that would insulate a pilot from a cosmic soup of anomalies and things that exist in the universe... at least not with their current level of knowledge.

And as we saw, even after being exposed to various anomalies and problems, and finding ways to countering them, somehow the writers saw fit to NOT have SF use these defensive solutions as standard integration into shields and weapons.

There is also the fact that Voyager writers sucked with tech/science stuff in general and I'd trust the Tech manuals more then a throw away line from a Voyager episode written by Jerri Taylor and Brannon Braga of all people, but really the whole salamander thing really speaks for itself

Except for the the fact that the wider canon established that most ships in TNG and DS9 era travelled at sub Warp 9.9 speeds, but VOY throwaway line of Warp 9.975 somehow became viable suddenly?
I mean, sure, I do think there might have been precedent for it because UFP acquired knowledge of the Cytherians among other things, but the writers never portrayed the UFP developing like that.
Also, in practical terms, most of the time, VOY cruised at Waro 6 or 8.
Warp 9.75 would have been its 'maximum speed' (at which the hull would start being compromised - aka, it was nowhere close to 'sustainable').
A sustainable cruise velocity for VOY would have been Warp 9.5 (which is a greater uptick from Galaxy class maximum speed of Warp 9.6).

At any rate, the dialogue of 9.9 being 21,473c has more merit and being in line with the rest of TNG and DS9 Warp speeds than VOY having a sustainable cruise velocity of Warp 9.975 (which the ship was never actually seen as being used - dialogue always suggested maximum speeds being less than Warp 9.9).

 

[Janewaysson]

Didn't Terry Matalas post that Starfleet, as of 2401, is unable to recover from the loss of Utopia Planitia? Hence the Titan-recycling because they cannot make new parts.

Yes he tweeted that

 

[DEWLine]

That seems...problematic somehow, as others have noted.

 

[Deks]

Perhaps most of the shipyards in the UPF make ships for their systems. Retooling for Starfleet ships would be time consuming.

The way I see it, when a planet/star system joins the UFP, their military/defensive force is absorbed into SF.
The planet/star system retains the ability to make ships for itself, but SF would also (when the planet/star system joins) retool those shipyards so they can create SF ships and increase the size/scope of those shipyards to standards that are present in SOL so they are comparable to Utopia Planitia.

This would make more sense for the organisation such as the Federation.

 

[Macintosh]

I know what it says.

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Warp_factor

But compared to what Tom Paris referenced Warp 9.9 as on screen in the ep "The 37's"
"about 4 billion miles (0.0007 light years) in 1 second" ~= 21,473c
And Tom Paris generally knows his piloting knowledge and stats.

Plus the curve to infinity past Warp 9 on the TNG Warp Factor scale is literally hand drawn.

So it's a bit Timey/Wimey/Wibbley/Wobbly.

I wouldn't put much stock on the Reference manual when they aren't willing to use their existing consistent formula past Warp 9.

I'd rather use on-screen Cannon at that point when they have a critical main character state the actual speed of Warp 9.9.

I then used Tom Paris stated speed and made proportional adjustments based on what the TNG Technical Manual states and what Tom Paris states.

IMO, on-screen Canon is Stronger & more valid than TNG Tech Manuals.

Especially when it comes to a main character talking about their profession (Tom Paris / Piloting).

Just look at that Memory Alpha chart you're cherry-picking a Tom Paris quote from. Canonically warp speeds are all over the bloody place. Please explain why warp 9.975 is canonically slower than warp 9.9 based on what we are repeatedly told about Voyager's top speed on-screen. Never mind that Paris's comment is the outlier here, and he can't even decide if he was expelled from the Academy or not (cf. "Drive").

 

[Deks]

That seems...problematic somehow, as others have noted.

Its not only problematic, it just doesn't make sense.
The Federation CANNOT hope to have only Utopia Planitia as the primary source of starship construction for the whole Federation.
Other interstellar powers would have overwhelmed them a LONG time ago if that was the case.
An organisation like the UFP has to have ship construction facilities similar in size/scope to Utopia Planitia in every member planet solar system.
That is, upon joining UFP, the system's shipyard facilities are brought up to SF's code of standard (unless they are already there) along with building more of them to rival the amount of shipyards at Utopia Planitia, and used for construction (and maintenance/upgrades) of starships... while allowing a certain % of those shipyards to still produce native species designs.

 

[Deks]

Just look at that Memory Alpha chart you're cherry-picking a Tom Paris quote from. Canonically warp speeds are all over the bloody place. Please explain why warp 9.975 is canonically slower than warp 9.9 based on what we are repeatedly told about Voyager's top speed on-screen. Never mind that Paris's comment is the outlier here, and he can't even decide if he was expelled from the Academy or not (cf. "Drive").

Voyager only mentioned a handful of times that its top cruising speed is Warp 9.975... and yet in practical application when the ship was actually maxing out Warp, Warp 9.75 was consistently mentioned.
Paris even mentioned in the early episode with the Swarm that IF he could maintain a speed of 9.75 for 12 hours, they should be able to get through most of the Swarm space.

9.75, not 9.975.
And again, in Threshold, the ship started breaking apart when nearing Warp 9.75.
Chakotay had to drop speed to Warp 9.5 to stabilize the ship.
Why drop it to 9.5 if the 'top cruising speed' was 9.975?

Additionally, prior to VOY, TNG and DS9 established that most ships could potentially approach a maximum Warp speed of about Warp 9.6 (what the Galaxy class had)... and even that was difficult.
Even the Nebula class (the USS Prometheus as seen on DS9 - before the Prometheus class as seen on VOY) has been modified to reach up to Warp 9.5, which at the time was considered an 'achievement'.

The Defiant couldn't even get above Warp 9 without shuffling power from the phasers into SIF.

So, VOY having a cruise velocity of 9.975 (which was only mentioned a few times but never seen in practice) didn't make sense... but rather, having Warp 9.75 as a temporarily sustainable maximum speed (which could be maintained for 12 hrs) DID make more sense (however, IF the UFP technology was portrayed with the principles of EXPONENTIAL DEVELOPMENTS AND RETURNS [and taking into account some unexpected breakthroughs and knowledge from the Cytherians for example], then yes, by the time VOY was launched I could see UFP easily achieving Warp 9.975 as a sustainble Warp velocity - which would be orders of magnitude faster than 9.9 (21,473 times C) - in fact, if Warp 9.975 was indeed VOY's sustainable cruise velocity, the ship should have been thrown over 200 MILLION LY's away to get back to the Milky Way and UFP in 75 years time (and if you ask me, THAT would have made for a more interesting viewing rather than have the ship just in the Milky Way) - however, the UFP was NOT portrayed like that (sadly).

It wasn't until we saw the USS Prometheus in 'Message in the bottle' epsiode in VOY s4, that the ship was able to travel at Warp 9.9 towards Romulan space without experiencing any kind of turbulence or difficulties, and its EMH stated that it was designed to be the fastest ship in the fleet.

There was more evidence against the premise of VOY having a sustainable cruise velocity of Warp 9.975 from canonical data and dialogue compared to a more sensible 9.75 (which could only be maintained for 12 hrs).

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Tom Paris once reached "Infinite Speed", and in doing so evolved himself into a non-sentient giant salamander. To me, that makes his knowledge/opinion on warp travel somewhat suspect

IMO, that speaks more like they tripped/stumbled into something accidentally than makes his knowledge/opinion on warp travel suspect.

There is also the fact that Voyager writers sucked with tech/science stuff in general and I'd trust the Tech manuals more then a throw away line from a Voyager episode written by Jerri Taylor and Brannon Braga of all people, but really the whole salamander thing really speaks for itself

They usually have Technical Writers to handle the technical writing, no matter the Trek Series.

Anything remotely technical, they hand over that portion to the Technical Writing Staff.

While UFP could probably predict various environmental conditions in many parts of space given their current level of knowledge and automation for R&D (computerised) and devise means of protection, the problem is, their knowledge of the Milky Way alone was not really 'complete' (at least it wasn't in the 24th century - perhaps by the mid/late 25th century it was).

The Milky Way Galaxy is FAR larger than what is shown on the 2D map.

Spoiler: Star Trek Galacic 2D map (Thin Disk Portion ~= 100,000 ly Diameter)

It's deceptive how small the UFP really is.

So to state that they'd be 'Complete' anytime soon is a farce.

From a previous Post of mines:

- Size of UFP Territory and how long to traverse from one end to another -
According to some basic calculations, on the 2D planar Galactic Map that roughly corresponds to the Thin Disk area of the Milky Way where most of the major Star Systems resides.

The UFP has roughly these MAXIMUM Distance Values:
- 8103 ly distance from the (Galactic North-to-Galactic South)
- 5735 ly distance from the (Galactic East-to-Galactic West)

None of this is obviously factoring the 3rd Dimension and Territory in the Z-Axis.

Based on the Area of a 2D Square Plane for the Thin Disk's 100,000 ly section.
The UFP's 46,470,705 ly² ~= 0.46470705% of the Thin Disk 2D-Planar Area on the Galactic Map.

That's how insignificant the territory that the UFP holds in comparison to many of the larger powers. UFP basically has "< ½%" of 2D Planar Area on the Thin-Disk section

If you're going from the furthest point of the UFP's Galactic-North to the furthest point on the Galactic-South in a straight line on the map (Thin Disk section), that would be roughly 8103 ly.

@ slightly faster than Wf 9.9, you'd be able to cover all of that Vertical Galactic North-South travel within the UFP territory in ~135.05 days.

So you're absolutely right, it is ridiculous as to how far they portray distances and how fast the USS Titan-A is w/o using any of the Faster FTL drives that are available.
Normal Warp Drives at their level of tech, isn't fast enough in the late 24th century / Very Early 25th century.

It's not like the 32nd Century USS Discovery-A's level of Warp Drive which comes out to Wf 54-58 on my scale.
Assuming Discovery-A can sustain those High Wf's indefinitely as long as they have fuel, the Discovery-A could cross the Galactic North-South distances in ~4 days.

That's quite the far-cry in Warp Drive performance going from 24th Century to 32nd Century.

Space is 3D and FAR larger in Dimension and volume than what is shown on the 2D map.

Spoiler: Side Orthographic Profile of the Major Galactic Structures of our Galaxy [NOT TO SCALE, illustrative purposes ONLY]

Spoiler: My Researched size on the current estimated size of our Galactic Structures using latest sources.

And what has been explored is a TINY Sliver / % of the Milky Way's 3D volume.

You have to remember that there are Star Systems Above & Below the Thin Disk, within the Thick Disk as well, and some that have drifted out further past the Thick Disk into the Galactic Halo on the Z-axis as well.

In other words, there would have been no way for SF to create sufficient protection in the form of shielding that would insulate a pilot from a cosmic soup of anomalies and things that exist in the universe... at least not with their current level of knowledge.

When you're talking "Infinite Speed" and being EVERY-WHERE in the Universe.
That includes Galaxies outside of our own, and potentially what's out beyond the edge of the Universe with things we don't know.

There's no possible way to create counters or protection from so many things we don't know or understand.

So there's no point in trying to create that protection, just work on making faster FTL drives that don't go into "Infinity & Beyond!".

Otherwise you might run into something you weren't anticipating and bad-ness will happen.

A sustainable cruise velocity for VOY would have been Warp 9.5 (which is a greater uptick from Galaxy class maximum speed of Warp 9.6).

For the original 75 year journey to even remotely make sense.
Voyager would need to fly at it's "Cruise Speed" to min max fuel burn.
That means they wouldn't be going at Maximum speed most of the time.

- Voyager's Unscheduled 70,000 ly journey from the Delta Quadrant to home -
- Based on the on-screen estimates of 75 year journey has a average cruise speed of Warp 8 assuming unlimited fuel
- Warp 8 would take 68.36 years if non-stop with unlimited fuel, but given stops, repairs, exploration, etc. They probably rounded up to 75 years
- That means I can guess that Warp 8 was their cruise speed assuming unlimited fuel (A VERY Unrealistic Scenario)
- Galaxy Class initial Average Cruise speed was Warp 6, but later on became Warp 7

That's why I estimate Voyager had a true "Indefinite Cruise Speed" of Warp 8 provided you have enough fuel and aren't worrying about the Engines Thermal limits or stress that you put on it.

At any rate, the dialogue of 9.9 being 21,473c has more merit and being in line with the rest of TNG and DS9 Warp speeds than VOY having a sustainable cruise velocity of Warp 9.975 (which the ship was never actually seen as being used - dialogue always suggested maximum speeds being less than Warp 9.9).

I concur on how fast Warp Factor 9.9 being ~21,473c

That being stated, Wf 9.975 would be "Top Speed" for USS Voyager for a short period of time.
Maximum Cruise Speeds (The Engines can Indefinitely run @ assuming you have the fuel) would be lower than Warp 9.9.
I'd argue that Warp 9 was that "Cruise Speed".
Wf 9.9 can be held for a longer "Sprint" period, but not Indefinitely like Wf 8.

So, VOY having a cruise velocity of 9.975 (which was only mentioned a few times but never seen in practice) didn't make sense... but rather, having Warp 9.75 as a temporarily sustainable maximum speed (which could be maintained for 12 hrs) DID make more sense.

9.975 might only be sustainable for minutes on end, not hrs like 9.75.
You'd also be stressing the Warp Engines by ALOT and they require cool down & inspection after going so fast.

 

[Tim Walker]

Starfleet seems to have got the fleet up and running again before the 25th century started. Though several designs looks like reconstructions of existing designs and may well be massive refits of older designs using new technologies

"...massive refits..." When I read that post, what came to mind was the Excelsior II. Perhaps such a refit would be worthwhile, if one could get a serviceable ship faster than by building a completely new one.

Something similar has occurred in real life life. Darin Wagner did a YouTube video about the GUPPY project, in which a U.S. Navy submarine was transformed.

I have been having a problem trying to link to this video. The title is "The Constitution Class Refit from a Submariner's Perspective."

BTW, I figure that a number of shipyards have Starfleet contracts. In case of invasion (such as during the Four Years War), so if one system falls you can still build ships

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I have been having a problem trying to link to this video. The title is "The Constitution Class Refit from a Submariner's Perspective."

Spoiler: The Constitution Class Refit from a Submariner's Perspective.

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[Tim Walker]

Thanks, KamenRiderBlade.

Been thinking about tech levels, in regards to the Trek universe.

By the early 25th century several innovations may be starting to have a real impact, or are on the verge of having an impact. Positive...or negative. Possibilities that come to mind:

1. Slipstream drive.

2. Artificial Intelligence (AI).

AI brings to mind multiple possible futures. Different scenarios:

a. Biological beings develop symbiotic relationships with one or more types of AI.

b. Biological beings merge with their machines.

c. AI have intelligence comparable to biological brains, and can act independently.

d. A singularity occurs as AI ascends in intelligence above biological brains.


Scenario b. is basically the cyborg option. The Borg come to mind.

Scenario c. is what I call the Cylon Problem. In a Trek context we get a number of different flavors of android; we also get ships run by AI, such as the M5 project, and the Texas class.

Scenario d. Civilizations of biological beings try to avoid AI super civilizations.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Thanks, KamenRiderBlade.

You're Welcome!

Been thinking about tech levels, in regards to the Trek universe.

By the early 25th century several innovations may be starting to have a real impact, or are on the verge of having an impact. Positive...or negative. Possibilities that come to mind:

1. Slipstream drive.

Early iterations of the SlipStream drive, similar to how Warp Drive was young and new during Jonathon Archer's era.
The Non-Benamite powered Version is slower, but can be used by any ship with the right basic modifcations.

The Benamite powered version is MUCH faster, but requries Benamite Crystals that take a VERY LONG time to grow even a small amount of it. That will have to be done at a industrial scale within UFP core worlds in large Crystal Growing Factory Farms and distributed to Captains on a need to use basis.

2. Artificial Intelligence (AI).

AI brings to mind multiple possible futures. Different scenarios:

a. Biological beings develop symbiotic relationships with one or more types of AI.

Knight Rider & KITT?

b. Biological beings merge with their machines.

Borg solution (Bad when forced upon a person who didn't ask for it)

c. AI have intelligence comparable to biological brains, and can act independently.

That'd be nice as long as it's programmed to be friendly.

d. A singularity occurs as AI ascends in intelligence above biological brains.

We'll see.

Scenario b. is basically the cyborg option. The Borg come to mind.

It's only bad if it's forced upon a biological person unwittingly.

Scenario c. is what I call the Cylon Problem. In a Trek context we get a number of different flavors of android; we also get ships run by AI, such as the M5 project, and the Texas class.

So basically Data / Synths, but hopefully raised to be friendly.

Scenario d. Civilizations of biological beings try to avoid AI super civilizations.

Romulans and their fear of AI / Sentient Mechanical Life.

 

[Tim Walker]

Night Rider and KITT? I am thinking of Exo-Comps, and EMH mark I and II.

Androids, on the other hand, will have become highly suspect.