Physicists at CERN have recorded particles moving faster than light
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Re: Physicists at CERN have recorded particles moving faster than ligh
Of course, that gentleman's name was spelled slightly differently.
Of course, that gentleman's name was spelled slightly differently.
Saquist
Commodore
Re: Physicists at CERN have recorded particles moving faster than ligh
we have a matrix fan...
make that two...
we have a matrix fan...
make that two...
Re: Physicists at CERN have recorded particles moving faster than ligh
Neutrinos are nearly bugger all in any case - they mostly seem to exist to conserve energy, linear momentum, and angular momentum during beta decay - in other words, they make the sums add up.
Re: Physicists at CERN have recorded particles moving faster than ligh
Don't laugh it's about recognizing patterns and admitting our limited current scientific knowledge.
Re: Physicists at CERN have recorded particles moving faster than ligh
No. Knowing that every scientific theory is intrinsically subject to improvements is about admitting our limited scientific knowledge, and it's the very idea at the foundation of the scientific method.
Saying that you "intuitively figured it out" that general relativity is wrong ("backed by no knowledge or research at all") is about discarding a scientific theory out of hand because it's too difficult to understand: general relativity is not simply about the speed of light: it's about gravity and the shape of space-time, things you can't simply throw out without any explanation whatsoever.
No. Knowing that every scientific theory is intrinsically subject to improvements is about admitting our limited scientific knowledge, and it's the very idea at the foundation of the scientific method.
Saying that you "intuitively figured it out" that general relativity is wrong ("backed by no knowledge or research at all") is about discarding a scientific theory out of hand because it's too difficult to understand: general relativity is not simply about the speed of light: it's about gravity and the shape of space-time, things you can't simply throw out without any explanation whatsoever.
Re: Physicists at CERN have recorded particles moving faster than ligh
We're naturally adapted to a world model where that allows us to obtain food to survive long enough to reproduce and propagate the species. We're not naturally adapted to a world model that encompasses curved space-time metrics, a maximum velocity of information transport, and assorted quantum weirdness that appears to have several different interpretations without any apparent means of distinguishing which, if any, is correct. Intuition gets one pretty much nowhere.
We're naturally adapted to a world model where that allows us to obtain food to survive long enough to reproduce and propagate the species. We're not naturally adapted to a world model that encompasses curved space-time metrics, a maximum velocity of information transport, and assorted quantum weirdness that appears to have several different interpretations without any apparent means of distinguishing which, if any, is correct. Intuition gets one pretty much nowhere.
Re: Physicists at CERN have recorded particles moving faster than ligh
That's exactly the line of reasoning I used many times to explain people why fundamental physics is so difficult, and why we need advanced maths to understand it. As you can guess, it rarely went well...
That's exactly the line of reasoning I used many times to explain people why fundamental physics is so difficult, and why we need advanced maths to understand it. As you can guess, it rarely went well...
Re: Physicists at CERN have recorded particles moving faster than ligh
I think physicists would be better served if they dressed up in wizard-type clothing with pointy hats and long staffs à la Gandalf. It might get them a bit more respect if people were afraid they might get turned into toads.
I think physicists would be better served if they dressed up in wizard-type clothing with pointy hats and long staffs à la Gandalf. It might get them a bit more respect if people were afraid they might get turned into toads.
Re: Physicists at CERN have recorded particles moving faster than ligh
For example, maybe there's no cure at all for certain type of specific cancer (too "hardcoded" in the dna) or Alzheimer. But you guess that there must be a cure and you search for it.
I think it's fundamental to scientific knowledge and research.
There's always an intuition behind any scientific discovery. Especially if it's ground breaking like the relatively theory or the quantum physics or finding a faster particle than light. You must realize that. Sure I didn't write any book about it and claim it to be the bible truth. I admitted right from to the start to myself that it was only an intuition. You just got the intuition that there's something worth studying there. Do you understand?
For example, maybe there's no cure at all for certain type of specific cancer (too "hardcoded" in the dna) or Alzheimer. But you guess that there must be a cure and you search for it.
I think it's fundamental to scientific knowledge and research.
Re: Physicists at CERN have recorded particles moving faster than ligh
You defy your own reasoning, since there was no "intuition" behind the neutrino speed measurement. They were trying to prove something else, and they found out this weird stuff. They were baffled as anyone else, and that's the reason they released the data to the world, asking the science community to double-check their results, and they are waiting for independent confirmation before making any claim.
Now, there is obviously some modicum of creativity behind any science research (otherwise, it wouldn't be research at all), but it's filtered by years of experience. "Mh, this theory doesn't work very well for this reason, and this reason, and this reason. Now, what if it was like that instead?" As with anything worthwhile, science work is 10% inspiration and 90% perspiration. If you came here last week saying "I intuitively figured out that relativity is wrong", I would have called your idea a piece of moo. Even if this measurement is confirmed, it doesn't make your idea "a precursory stroke of genius": it would still be a piece of moo which just happened to be right. A broken clock can tell you something about being right two times a day, I think.
As with anything, I'm highly sceptical of anything that is presented without a whole lot of supporting arguments and evidences. In this case, I would say that your intuition is mostly a matter of "I can't understand this shit at all. Fuck relativity" instead of a genuine stroke of genius. Call it... an intuition.
You defy your own reasoning, since there was no "intuition" behind the neutrino speed measurement. They were trying to prove something else, and they found out this weird stuff. They were baffled as anyone else, and that's the reason they released the data to the world, asking the science community to double-check their results, and they are waiting for independent confirmation before making any claim.
Now, there is obviously some modicum of creativity behind any science research (otherwise, it wouldn't be research at all), but it's filtered by years of experience. "Mh, this theory doesn't work very well for this reason, and this reason, and this reason. Now, what if it was like that instead?" As with anything worthwhile, science work is 10% inspiration and 90% perspiration. If you came here last week saying "I intuitively figured out that relativity is wrong", I would have called your idea a piece of moo. Even if this measurement is confirmed, it doesn't make your idea "a precursory stroke of genius": it would still be a piece of moo which just happened to be right. A broken clock can tell you something about being right two times a day, I think.
As with anything, I'm highly sceptical of anything that is presented without a whole lot of supporting arguments and evidences. In this case, I would say that your intuition is mostly a matter of "I can't understand this shit at all. Fuck relativity" instead of a genuine stroke of genius. Call it... an intuition.
Re: Physicists at CERN have recorded particles moving faster than ligh
You were really certain at 100% that light was the fastest thing in the universe and that we would never find anything faster? Really? You didn't have the same intuition as me at all?
Sure if I write a book called: The big lie behind the speed of Light. Then it would have been wrong, because I didn't prove my intuition, I just state my hypothesis as verified fact.
I don't know what's the problematic here. When you admit that it's an intuition, an hypothesis, then it's ok. Your intuition can be proven right or wrong. That's why I was telling to myself that it was an intuition. An hypothesis. I admitted that it was not backed by proper research.
You were really certain at 100% that light was the fastest thing in the universe and that we would never find anything faster? Really? You didn't have the same intuition as me at all?
Sure if I write a book called: The big lie behind the speed of Light. Then it would have been wrong, because I didn't prove my intuition, I just state my hypothesis as verified fact.
Re: Physicists at CERN have recorded particles moving faster than ligh
That's not the issue. The theory of relativity is sound and it has been confirmed by countless experiments, and it puts a higher limits on the speed of particles and informations in the universe. It's not just a matter of "going fast", it's about the fabric of spacetime. If we are ever to confirm that neutrinos can travel faster than light, than it's not just a matter of them going very fast: we must find another theory of spacetime, one that allows for such things to happen and yet confirms all the experiments that we made about the speed of light (i.e. it must include GR as a special case, juts like GR includes Newtonian gravity as a special case). And nobody will be happier than me: it means that I am going to see physics advance faster and further in my lifetime. That's wonderful.
It will be a triumph of science, and the people working on it, spending their lives trying to figure out the universe and how it works. This is the reason I'm don't care when someone comes and says "Well, I know nothing about this, but I had an intuition and figured it on my own before anybody else. Not that I have anything to prove it, obviously". I feel that's disrespectful to those who actually worked on it, not to mention quite self-aggrandizing.
That's not the issue. The theory of relativity is sound and it has been confirmed by countless experiments, and it puts a higher limits on the speed of particles and informations in the universe. It's not just a matter of "going fast", it's about the fabric of spacetime. If we are ever to confirm that neutrinos can travel faster than light, than it's not just a matter of them going very fast: we must find another theory of spacetime, one that allows for such things to happen and yet confirms all the experiments that we made about the speed of light (i.e. it must include GR as a special case, juts like GR includes Newtonian gravity as a special case). And nobody will be happier than me: it means that I am going to see physics advance faster and further in my lifetime. That's wonderful.
It will be a triumph of science, and the people working on it, spending their lives trying to figure out the universe and how it works. This is the reason I'm don't care when someone comes and says "Well, I know nothing about this, but I had an intuition and figured it on my own before anybody else. Not that I have anything to prove it, obviously". I feel that's disrespectful to those who actually worked on it, not to mention quite self-aggrandizing.
Re: Physicists at CERN have recorded particles moving faster than ligh
For example, we can guess intuitively that there's a cure for Alzheimer but it's those who find the cure that are the actual heroes.
I'm sorry if you took my post in the wrong way. I'm sure other people thought the same thing (even if in this case it was found, if true, by accident).
I guess the basis of my intuition is that we don't have access to the whole universe, so we can't know or analyze every particles or phenomena, and we're are so far from being all knowing. Maybe something is true in our plane (point of view) but not true in another plane. A bit like newton law vs the relativity theory.
It's true I thought about it before, and I'm sure I'm not alone. I'm not here telling people that I'm the only person who thought about that. In fact, I was expecting some "me too".
For example, we can guess intuitively that there's a cure for Alzheimer but it's those who find the cure that are the actual heroes.
I'm sorry if you took my post in the wrong way. I'm sure other people thought the same thing (even if in this case it was found, if true, by accident).
I guess the basis of my intuition is that we don't have access to the whole universe, so we can't know or analyze every particles or phenomena, and we're are so far from being all knowing. Maybe something is true in our plane (point of view) but not true in another plane. A bit like newton law vs the relativity theory.
Re: Physicists at CERN have recorded particles moving faster than ligh
No hard feelings, I just focused on your post because it seemed to present the (unfortunately widespread) idea that people can figure out advanced physics "by guts" instead of relying on mathematics, long hours of study, and hard work. If that wasn't the intention, my bad.
No hard feelings, I just focused on your post because it seemed to present the (unfortunately widespread) idea that people can figure out advanced physics "by guts" instead of relying on mathematics, long hours of study, and hard work. If that wasn't the intention, my bad.
Re: Physicists at CERN have recorded particles moving faster than ligh
But yes I don't believe scientist who said they have found the ultimate formula or fastest thing in the universe. I'm sorry for your research and hard work but I just don't. I applaud the scientists who will prove that the neutrino are indeed faster than light. But if they come here and say now really really really really really really really that's it. NOTHING can be faster than neutrinos, because of mathematics of it. I say to them that the scientist previously thought that earth was flat and that light was the fastest thing possible.
Then when a scientist will say I found another particles faster than Neutrino, I will say the same thing. That I intuitively figured that before and this time I will have the trekbbs forum archive to prove it.
No my post as I said it simply a recognition of our limited knowledge. An introduction to abstract thinking.
But yes I don't believe scientist who said they have found the ultimate formula or fastest thing in the universe. I'm sorry for your research and hard work but I just don't. I applaud the scientists who will prove that the neutrino are indeed faster than light. But if they come here and say now really really really really really really really that's it. NOTHING can be faster than neutrinos, because of mathematics of it. I say to them that the scientist previously thought that earth was flat and that light was the fastest thing possible.
Then when a scientist will say I found another particles faster than Neutrino, I will say the same thing. That I intuitively figured that before and this time I will have the trekbbs forum archive to prove it.
Re: Physicists at CERN have recorded particles moving faster than ligh
Unfortunately, you don't seem to understand the issue about the speed of light, general relativity, and in general what you are talking about. I think I will bow out of this specific discussion, for my own gastritis if nothing else...
Unfortunately, you don't seem to understand the issue about the speed of light, general relativity, and in general what you are talking about. I think I will bow out of this specific discussion, for my own gastritis if nothing else...
Re: Physicists at CERN have recorded particles moving faster than ligh
Neutrinos in the future may become a special case just as the current speed of light as the fastest thing and physics laws formulated from it will be a special case of the new neutrinos derived knowledge and formulas.
Don't go backward in your thinking. You were on the right path. When you said:
I agree with your quote. That's what I mean. I even said it in the posts above a couple of times.
Neutrinos in the future may become a special case just as the current speed of light as the fastest thing and physics laws formulated from it will be a special case of the new neutrinos derived knowledge and formulas.
Re: Physicists at CERN have recorded particles moving faster than ligh
Ironically, the Grand Unified Theory is abbreviated with GUT.
Ironically, the Grand Unified Theory is abbreviated with GUT.
Re: Physicists at CERN have recorded particles moving faster than ligh
I hope I didn't step on your TOE.
I hope I didn't step on your TOE.
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