Photonic torpedoes

[Deks]

Certainly I had the impression that Reed got the idea about Photonic torpedoes from the Klingons when the away team boarded their Raptor.

Malcom was mentioned to be nuts about weapons, so it's possible he got an inclination that the photon torpedoes Klingons used were anti-matter based weaponry.

An idea is enough to get things going, and Malcolm might have been working in cohorts with SF on a new type of torpedo.
Reed merely pushed things along by seeing some minor details from the Klingons.
2 years later when the Xindy attacked, the Enterprise is called back in for a refit and modifications so they can go into the Expanse, and they get weapons upgrades (by which time, the new torpedoes are perfected and ready for use in the field).

 

[Crazy Eddie]

We know the historical answer, but if the Europeans had been Vulcans, and the Native Americans had possessed the ambitions of the Earthlings...

That's a more interesting question than you realize. For one, it's already established that Vulcan foreign policy was vaguely imperialistic for reasons that don't become clear until the Kir'Shira story arc. Since Vulcans at the time had a tendency to interpret potential competitors as a threat to their security, the LAST thing they would have done was provide Starfleet with a halfway decent space force. They probably would have done exactly what the U.S. did with Japan: provide them with a couple of relatively advanced but for the most part outdated technologies so they remained dependent on us without gaining the means to surpass us.

One might switch the focus a bit and argue that Japan was almost like such an underdog before Perry, and that the European powers did provide Japan with parity technology comparable to NX-01, while at times attempting Vulcan-style "moral restraint" for various largely political goals.

But in this case, post-Meiji Japan managed to modernize its feudal-era society and military practically on their own initiative. Perry opened the door for them, sure, but they wouldn't have walked through it themselves if someone else had to hold their hand.

I see the same being true in the case of Earth and Starfleet. I think humans were already independently developing space technology and openly trading with their neighbors, developing on an already accelerated path. Starfleet would have been a joint initiative between the Vulcans and United Earth, with Earth retaining primary control and the Vulcans providing most of the funding (probably in the form of latinum, which Earth does not have and without which the Earth Government cannot operate outside of Sol).

Certainly the parity weapons of Earth emerged suspiciously simultaneously with their first true deep space power projection mission, too early to be the result of that mission. One would then suspect there had been some deals behind the backs of the Vulcans, yes. And in ENT, don't we actually see Earth operate a few ship types that are later established to be in use by other local powers?

I don't recall ships, not specifically. But I do vividly recall the suspicious appearance of Starfleet weapons--notably the EM-33 and a few others--being used by alien personnel on alien ships. Real world reason is simply the reuse of props, but in-universe it could very well be that the EM-33 is the Starfleet designation of a 22nd century disruptor pistol manufactured by some Rigelian company.

In which case, Starfleet's new photonic torpedoes might just be the spaceborne version of the (on Earth) ubiquitous "Exocet" in its various incarnations. Hardly the best weapon in the galaxy, but it's cheap, easy to use, and just reliable enough to score a kill if you can get a clean shot.

 

[Timo]

Certainly I had the impression that Reed got the idea about Photonic torpedoes from the Klingons when the away team boarded their Raptor.

I'd hate to think that any of our heroes played any part in developing these weapons. After all, they were absent during the development period, galloping around the galaxy. When they returned to Earth, they found fellow starships already well-armed with phase cannon, and a dockyard crew ready to install photonic torpedoes and their launchers on the Enterprise.

the LAST thing they would have done was provide Starfleet with a halfway decent space force

Exactly. And no doubt a number of competing cultures, such as the Andorians or the Tellarites, would have offered to do the exact opposite of the Vulcan thing, in order to undermine the Vulcans. Earth probably didn't have much if any direct contact with these relatively powerful anti-Vulcan players before ENT, but Archer Sr might nevertheless have been aware of what their intermediaries or independent lesser players were ready to offer, if the Vulcans only allowed Earth to accept (and to pay). But Earth might be in no position to accept - one is reminded of Western aid offered to Eastern European countries after WWII, and of the prohibitive political cost of accepting.

I think humans were already independently developing space technology and openly trading with their neighbors, developing on an already accelerated path.

I'd argue they were attempting to do so - but not succeeding, because trade partners in the vicinity were under Vulcan influence, and Earth traders could not reach beyond the Vulcan zone of influence yet, not within meaningful timescales anyway. Perhaps humans had possessed early ambitions of an interstellar Dominion of Earth until the arrival of the Vulcans (I'm sure we do right now), but were thoroughly dispirited when Vulcans revealed that there was nothing to explore within the nearest twenty lightyears, no free worlds to settle on, nobody to ally with. Except for bit players, scraps and straws, onto which Earth clung like crazy, cursing its bad luck of having to exist in the deep shadow of the Vulcanian star empire.

I don't recall ships, not specifically.

The ragtag fleet in "Twilight" and the welcome fleet after the Xindi odyssey featured a few ships of alien origin; it's doubtful these would all have been random foreign visitors or benefactors. Also, the courier ship Sarajevo had the interesting ability to run meaningful utility errands for Earth's first true deep space explorer - and looked quite unlike any other Starfleet design we've come across. Perhaps this apparently unarmed vessel was something Earth was allowed to purchase with a warp five (or four) drive preinstalled?

Nothing definite there, though. But I agree the EM-33 issue is a good piece to be added to this puzzle. And since the contemporary plasma rifle also is a recurring alien prop, here minimally modified, I wouldn't wonder if it also were an alien weapon slightly modified either by its exporters (never give the customer the best stuff) or by Earth (so that the gun would have the minimum of locally unreproduceable "black box" components).

Also, didn't the crew of the Fortunate sport one of the more common "alien rifle" props, too?

In which case, Starfleet's new photonic torpedoes might just be the spaceborne version of the (on Earth) ubiquitous "Exocet" in its various incarnations.

The remaining problem with this is that we don't exactly see the classic casing anywhere outside Starfleet or the Federation...

I might credit Earth as the one native producer of this particular weapon shell, then, even if the innards came from a variety of alien sources.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Crazy Eddie]

In which case, Starfleet's new photonic torpedoes might just be the spaceborne version of the (on Earth) ubiquitous "Exocet" in its various incarnations.

The remaining problem with this is that we don't exactly see the classic casing anywhere outside Starfleet or the Federation...

We do see several of them at Armagosa in Generations, which is never described as a "Starfleet" station. It's also enough to wonder if the six photon torpedoes on DS9 in "Emissary" weren't weapons left by the Cardassians when they pulled out; if Starfleet was going to install torpedoes, they probably would have left more than six. The Son'a also seem to be equipped with photon torpedoes, and for some reason the Pygorians are able to sell them to the Maquis; though we never see the casings of these weapons, I'd be surprised if they turned out to be different from the Starfleet standard too.

But I may be biased because I still think "photon" is a brand name, not a weapon type, and therefore the "chiclet of doom" casing has more to do with brand identification than functionality, like the distinctive "cokebottle" shape that continues to be associated with a particular beverage even after the actual glass bottle from which the shape derives has become something of a rarity.

 

[Timo]

We do see several of them at Armagosa in Generations, which is never described as a "Starfleet" station.

...Which is why I added "Federation" there; presumably Starfleet isn't too wary about allowing its tech to leak out to the civilian sector, which has been seen having access to e.g. phasers (modern Type 1 units in "Devil in the Dark", older Type 2s in "Final Mission" etc) and other sidearms (the guns Drs Carter and Korby were packing in early TOS). We don't have any particular reason to think that the Amargosa observatory would have been a foreign outfit, either...

It's also enough to wonder if the six photon torpedoes on DS9 in "Emissary" weren't weapons left by the Cardassians when they pulled out; if Starfleet was going to install torpedoes, they probably would have left more than six.

Here I'd argue that the weapons upgrade had something of a priority, as the Cardassians would have destroyed that particular aspect of the hardware completely even in an unexpected and hasty withdrawal. The station sports what looks like Starfleet phaser strips from the very beginning, even when Cardassian phasers elsewhere are shown emitting from small pyramids or from roundels within their deflector dishes.

Starfleet might have installed phaser strips on all the defense sails (for looks - perhaps all weren't hooked up to the power systems yet), but only one torpedo launcher inside one of the sails at first, with something like twenty torps - and O'Brien's teams might have expended a dozen of those in testing. Since the station had some serious replication capacity (even if temporarily sabotaged), it could have been expected to self-replenish its torpedo stock eventually.

To be sure, we don't know if the station originally even had torpedo launchers. The alt-universe or flashback Terok Nors never fired torps, and no other Cardassian fighting installation or vessel has demonstrated torp capacity, either. It's always either beams or bolts. The closest we get to a "Cardassian photon torpedo" is when the runabout computer in "Tribunal" declares that the Hideki patrol boat has established a "photon lock" on the O'Briens. But we never see a Hideki fire torpedoes...

It's also possible that a multitude of launchers are compatible with the standard Starfleet torp (we already know Starfleet uses a variety of muzzle sizes for the one and same torp), including Cardassian launchers. Yet in the end, we're still lacking proof that any other culture would operate the Starfleet/UFP size and shape of torps, even if we can shoehorn such things in off-camera if we really want to.

Not that we'd have seen any other torpedo styles up close, of course. The only alternate torpedo prop to date seems to be the Dominion/Karemma weapon from "Starship Down".

But I may be biased because I still think "photon" is a brand name, not a weapon type, and therefore the "chiclet of doom" casing has more to do with brand identification than functionality

I'm all for that latter aspect, even if "photon" isn't a brand name. In my interpretation, Starfleet might have modified its 2150s innovation in a variety of ways, but decided not to, in the name of centuries- and disciplines-spanning commonality but also in the name of brand identity. Yet IMHO "photon torpedo" is a descriptive term also applying to foreign weapon families. It may be an abbreviation or a proper name, thus not referring to light quanta at all, but it's still descriptive of a weapon type rather than a weapon brand.

Why do I near-arbitrarily choose this tack? Because in "Sleeping Dogs", the term "photon torpedo" is a direct translation of a Klingon expression, not an Earth-invented name... It isn't even a Vulcan-corrupted translation, like "warbird" might be, but rather something chosen by Hoshi Sato. Unless we assume that Sato based her understanding of Klingonaase on Vulcan material, rather than working it out by herself. "Broken Bow" is a bit ambiguous on that.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Saquist]

You could see a transporter work but unless you have the specs you'll be no closer to actually making it work. That's just one example.

Exactly - but you'll know not to spend your resources on developing meta-quadporter (example) technology when you know for sure transporter tech will work. Rather than 100 years to randomly hit upon a working transporter because all the engineering teams are spread out on different work, you do it in 30 because everybody focused on something they knew would work because they saw it in the future (to detail out my example.) I'm not saying that's how it went down, but it could be an influencing factor in the alteration of a timeline. In your example, Barclay could've left behind even more tidbits for say, Lilly to followup on.

I doubt, just knowing about it could do anything to advance technology. THere are realities of construct to consider that are not equal. Things that we misunderstand that the future would not that impede our progress. Those are real hurdles, like the true construct of Gravity, and what motivates time and the universe.

 

[PrimeDirective]

I always took the photonic torpedoes to be the much younger, and less advanced, version of the photon torpedo. I always presumed that they were of lesser power and fixed in yield (we saw in TNG and later series that photon torpedoes have variable yields). They quite possibly may not have had the same range, propulsion, and guidance systems. Quite similar to the difference between phasers and phase pistols.

You're right. I think I made a similar argument in an earlier thread.

 

[Major Chord]

I always took the photonic torpedoes to be the much younger, and less advanced, version of the photon torpedo. I always presumed that they were of lesser power and fixed in yield (we saw in TNG and later series that photon torpedoes have variable yields). They quite possibly may not have had the same range, propulsion, and guidance systems. Quite similar to the difference between phasers and phase pistols.

You're right. I think I made a similar argument in an earlier thread.

Except that in the first episode they were used, the photonic torpedoes were stated to have variable yields. Not saying you're wrong or anything, but I did want to correct that point.

 

[PrimeDirective]

I always took the photonic torpedoes to be the much younger, and less advanced, version of the photon torpedo. I always presumed that they were of lesser power and fixed in yield (we saw in TNG and later series that photon torpedoes have variable yields). They quite possibly may not have had the same range, propulsion, and guidance systems. Quite similar to the difference between phasers and phase pistols.

You're right. I think I made a similar argument in an earlier thread.

Except that in the first episode they were used, the photonic torpedoes were stated to have variable yields. Not saying you're wrong or anything, but I did want to correct that point.

It makes sense for photonic torpedoes to have variable yields, just like any other weapon that has existed or exists today.

 

[Omega_Glory]

As a side note, are photorps really in the megaton yeild? In "The Changeling", the Enterprise is hit with energy bursts that are equvalent, according to Spock, to ninety photon torpedos! He also states that the E's shields can withstand four more such attacks, which would make the shields capable of blocking 450 photon torpeds (with the first attack added in)!!! Photorps must be pretty small since in "Jounrney to Babel" a few standard phaser shots knocked the #4 shield down.

 

[Mytran]

It's also the episode where Kirk expressed utter amazement that their unknown target could absorb the energy of ONE photorn torpedo.

However, that aside, is there really any TOS evidence that phasers are weaker than PTs? Phasers are almost always the first choice of armament, and (in the Mirror Universe at least) the choice for planetary bombardement. By contrast, in A Taste Of Armageddon Scott suggests treating the planet to "a few dozen photon torpedos" - maybe this number are needed for a comparable phaser effect?

 

[Timo]

It's also the episode where Kirk expressed utter amazement that their unknown one-meter-long target could absorb the energy of ONE photorn torpedo.

Added a bit of emphasis. Scotty believes in warp engines. He doesn't believe in warp engines the size of a walnut. So Kirk shouldn't be expected to believe in defensive shields capable of keeping a midget starship from being obliterated by a full-grown one.

However, that aside, is there really any TOS evidence that phasers are weaker than PTs? Phasers are almost always the first choice of armament, and (in the Mirror Universe at least) the choice for planetary bombardement.

One might count that as evidence. After all, our heroes are the good guys - they don't overkill even if they have to kill. They'd choose their weaker weapons first (also for the reason of avoiding self-inflicted injuries).

OTOH, bombarding the Halkans out of the history of the universe would probably take less effort than eradicating the Eminians. After all, the latter appear to have an advanced and expansive interstellar-capable civilization on their planet, whereas Halkans just walk around in togas without as much as a wristwatch to show for technology. The skipper of a modern destroyer might choose to erase a 1600s-style pirate port with gunfire even when expending a load of Tomahawks on a 2000s-style coastal nation.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[blssdwlf]

It's also the episode where Kirk expressed utter amazement that their unknown target could absorb the energy of ONE photon torpedo.

Timo does make an interesting argument Kirk might be amazed because "a very small something" took a full hit although Spock doesn't say exactly how big it is until after Kirk is amazed...

It's too bad there aren't a lot of points to draw torpedo comparisons for TOS though.

A bit of speculation:

As for the shields, it seems like they trended upwards in strength when facing weapons previously fired at it. Perhaps the Enterprise got periodic shield upgrades?

Balance of Terror -> Enterprise barely withstands a weakened romulan plasma bolt (this same weapon was able to pulverize a shielded 2 mile wide asteroid in two hits)
Deadly Years -> Enterprise is able to take many hits from those romulan plasma bolts

Maybe this upgrade would account for the Enterprise being able to take "450" of its own photon torpedoes in ?

An aside (and another speculation): This would suggest though that Klingon Battlecruiser shields at the time of Elaan of Troyius didn't really keep up, with only 3-5 direct photon hits blowing out their shields and causing damage. Or perhaps by Elaan, the Enterprise gets newly upgraded photons...

However, that aside, is there really any TOS evidence that phasers are weaker than PTs? Phasers are almost always the first choice of armament, and (in the Mirror Universe at least) the choice for planetary bombardement. By contrast, in A Taste Of Armageddon Scott suggests treating the planet to "a few dozen photon torpedos" - maybe this number are needed for a comparable phaser effect?

No evidence that I'm aware of (but feel free to verify.)

Even in Journey to Babel, it would seem that given enough power (like from the super-powered suicide Orion ship) a phaser blast can do as much as 50-60 of Enterprise's photon torpedoes (relative to The Changeling) per hit. It would seem that the only limiting factor for phasers is power. When a ship becomes power-limited (like everything into shields) then the phasers can't even be energized and used or the phaser strength is very weak.

And in Obsession, Spock mentions that an antimatter blast (even from a tiny ounce) is enough to rip away half the planet's atmosphere. If Garrovick had only compared the antimatter to a photon torpedo instead of cobalt bombs... d'oh!

But as with the march of military tech, and another bit of speculation on my part, photon technology caught up and 14-15 cruiser-sized photon torpedoes (presumably supplied by Admiral Cartright to General Chang to make the framing convincing) is enough to bring down the Enterprise-A's shields in The Undiscovered Country...

Anyway, enough of my rambling

 

[publiusr]

Shields keep the anti-matter from interacting with the hull, thus only the shell would react. I always assumed early on that TOS photon torpedos had very small amounts of antimatter that produced only a packet of light. Larger amounts of anti-matter could be added, but never for ship to ship engagements due to hazards.